Cleveland: Downtown: Sherwin-Williams Headquarters

[jbee1982]

I really can't see the Cleveland Planning Commission allowing a 30-story building to be built right on Public Square. The whole idea is not in good taste, not to mention how out of place it would look next to the three other buildings on the square. If they wanted to build a 30 story building, they should have chosen the Bedrock site or whatever it is, not Public Square.

Edited January 13, 2020 by jbee1982

[Jenny]

8 minutes ago, jbee1982 said:

I really can't see the Cleveland Planning Commission allowing a 30-story building to be built right on Public Square. The whole idea is not in good taste, not to mention how out of place it would look next to the three other buildings on the square. If they wanted to build a 30 story building, they should have chosen the Bedrock site or whatever it is, not Public Square.

The City allowed a parking lot on Public Square.  Several actually.  Kinda looks outa place.

[marty15]

13 minutes ago, jbee1982 said:

I really can't see the Cleveland Planning Commission allowing a 30-story building to be built right on Public Square. The whole idea is not in good taste, not to mention how out of place it would look next to the three other buildings on the square. If they wanted to build a 30 story building, they should have chosen the Bedrock site or whatever it is, not Public Square.

There’s 8 buildings directly on Public Square ranging from 4-14 floors, and a church, and a parking lot, as stated above.

Edited January 13, 2020 by marty15

[E Rocc]

On 1/10/2020 at 10:16 AM, Enginerd said:

 

You may be right, but I hope the City begins a traffic study ASAP. Things might get a little nuts down there when you have 1,000 cars coming and going at the same time. 
 

I suppose there is ingress/egress to the north, south and west but they are all sh*tty two lane roads.

 

Might be time to expand them, if there is space and the soil can handle it.

[E Rocc]

9 hours ago, CbusTransit said:

Not sure about a subway... BUT now IS the time for the city to get riverfront zoning in place that requires a publicly accessible boardwalk along all river fronts downtown in the same manner that Chicago requires it. With active uses and windows fronting on the boardwalk.

 

I'm not so sure that last part is a good idea, at least on ground floors.   Not a lot of non-retail companies like being fishbowls.

[E Rocc]

On 1/10/2020 at 9:22 AM, ytown2ctown said:

Hopefully this is a very isolated instance I am in currently then. Glad to hear this though!

 

So it's mixed then, with insularity to be determined.   Good guess is that some people working there will mix with the surroundings, others will not.

 

Is it a place where people head out for lunch, or is that discouraged?   The latter is increasingly the case in the business world.   That's going to make a huge difference vis a vis adjoining development.

[CbusTransit]

2 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

I'm not so sure that last part is a good idea, at least on ground floors.   Not a lot of non-retail companies like being fishbowls.

All the more reason it should be required. The last thing we need is a windowless brick wall facing the river. They will need some sort of front office, cafeteria, break room or meeting room that can be located with windows facing the river to make a boardwalk feel safe, pleasant, and open

[E Rocc]

Just now, CbusTransit said:

All the more reason it should be required. The last thing we need is a windowless brick wall facing the river. They will need some sort of front office, cafeteria, break room or meeting room that can be located with windows facing the river to make a boardwalk feel safe, pleasant, and open

 

It's a reason it should not be required.   It could be a show stopper for some companies.   

[jbee1982]

We need the last open space filled with a tower that is at least as tall as Erieview tower. Otherwise, the skyline will be lopsided. I'd rather have an empty parking lot than a building that screws up our skyline. I'd rather wait for another building that can do the site justice. Just my opinion.

[Mov2Ohio]

22 minutes ago, jbee1982 said:

We need the last open space filled with a tower that is at least as tall as Erieview tower. Otherwise, the skyline will be lopsided. I'd rather have an empty parking lot than a building that screws up our skyline. I'd rather wait for another building that can do the site justice. Just my opinion.

Its lopsided already because the bulk of the tallest towers are east of public square. If anything, with this building being tall, but not as tall as Key Tower, it will balance it out seeing as how it will be West of Public Square with possibly more than one tower.

[Pugu]

34 minutes ago, jbee1982 said:

We need the last open space filled with a tower that is at least as tall as Erieview tower. Otherwise, the skyline will be lopsided. I'd rather have an empty parking lot than a building that screws up our skyline. I'd rather wait for another building that can do the site justice. Just my opinion.

 

I'd love a 150-story building on this site, but I will take a 30-something story building today over something taller at an unknown date in the future and a parking lot today. Remember, the two buildings this will replace (1 & 33 Public Square) were about 12 stories tall each before they were demolished for the never-built Ameritrust Tower.

[KJP]

Newmark Knight Frank's Fourth Quarter 2019 Cleveland Office Market Report was released a few minutes ago. Has a lot of emphasis on SHW's imminent announcement....

 

http://www.ngkf.com/home/research/us-leasing-market-reports.aspx?d=6944

 

[KJP]

1 hour ago, Pugu said:

 

I'd love a 150-story building on this site, but I will take a 30-something story building today over something taller at an unknown date in the future and a parking lot today. Remember, the two buildings this will replace (1 & 33 Public Square) were about 12 stories tall each before they were demolished for the never-built Ameritrust Tower.

 

 

True. Emporis (FWIW) says 1 Public Square was 12 stories and 148 feet tall and 33 Public Square was 13 stories and 136 feet tall. There was a tall billboard between the two structures but the gap was filled in with a building expansion (see photo above) when the exteriors of both were modernized in the 1960s.

 

So, according to my sources, SHW's new HQ will more than double the height of the predecessor buildings on that site.

[Pugu]

24 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

 

True. Emporis (FWIW) says 1 Public Square was 12 stories and 148 feet tall and 33 Public Square was 13 stories and 136 feet tall. There was a tall billboard between the two structures but the gap was filled in with a building expansion (see photo above) when the exteriors of both were modernized in the 1960s.

 

So, according to my sources, SHW's new HQ will more than double the height of the predecessor buildings on that site.

 

Thanks for that!  My claim of "about 12 stories" for the two buildings was purely from memory from the 70s or 80s whenever it was that they last stood!

 

[KJP]

6 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

Thanks for that!  My claim of "about 12 stories" for the two buildings was purely from memory from the 70s or 80s whenever it was that they last stood!

 

 

They were demolished in 1990.

[seicer]

While a publicly accessible boardwalk may be a nice amenity, it can absolutely be a stopper for some companies that require security perimeters. It's why the R&D site has security fencing and multitudes of cameras and why some of these proposals for it to be connected are just silly.

[surfohio]

33 minutes ago, seicer said:

While a publicly accessible boardwalk may be a nice amenity, it can absolutely be a stopper for some companies that require security perimeters. It's why the R&D site has security fencing and multitudes of cameras and why some of these proposals for it to be connected are just silly.

 

The river is publicly accessible. If they're worried about people being close to their perimeter then they shouldn't locate alongside it. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by surfohio

[Dougal]

4 hours ago, jbee1982 said:

We need the last open space filled with a tower that is at least as tall as Erieview tower. Otherwise, the skyline will be lopsided ...

 

I don't mind lopsided. What you want to avoid is too many buildings more or less the same height: Columbus and Milwaukee, for a couple of examples.

[CbusTransit]

The idea that you cannot be both secure and have a boardwalk is a false trade off. The jail is downtown. The cleveland fed is downtown. Various banks are downtown. These are all places that require security and are publicly accessible.

[KJP]

3 minutes ago, CbusTransit said:

The idea that you cannot be both secure and have a boardwalk is a false trade off. The jail is downtown. The cleveland fed is downtown. Various banks are downtown. These are all places that require security and are publicly accessible.

 

The US Navy has an office building along the Potomac River that is lined with a boardwalk. A public boardwalk. Someone even posted pictures of it -- I think in the SHW HQ thread.

[surfohio]

24 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

The US Navy has an office building along the Potomac River that is lined with a boardwalk. A public boardwalk. Someone even posted pictures of it -- I think in the SHW HQ thread.

Right. This specific topic is deja vu, all over again haha. 

[Guest skiwest]

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/01/cuyahoga-county-hires-lawyers-to-help-draft-incentives-to-keep-sherwin-williams-in-greater-cleveland.html

[cfdwarrior]

47 minutes ago, skiwest said:

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/01/cuyahoga-county-hires-lawyers-to-help-draft-incentives-to-keep-sherwin-williams-in-greater-cleveland.html

Seems a little late to be working things out if a site has been picked...unless it hasn't...

[freefourur]

28 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

Seems a little late to be working things out if a site has been picked...unless it hasn't...

Lawyers would be the last thing to happen. They come in to negotiate contracts for whatever incentives will be provided. This is a good sign. 

[LlamaLawyer]

2 hours ago, cfdwarrior said:

Seems a little late to be working things out if a site has been picked...unless it hasn't...

The article says they’re hired to help “finalize” financial incentives. There’s also a $70,000 limit, which is not a ton of money to pay Ulmer for a transaction like this. Sounds to me like good news that we’re in the late stages where business people have worked everything out in principle and just need a couple lawyers to make it happen.

[Chazz Michael Michaels]

7 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Where's it going to come from?  Who's going to build it?   I'm very much a believer in the taller the better, but someone has to be big enough to pay for it.

The truth is no one knows who would be next.  Maybe an out of town company, maybe a growing company (Alexander Mann), maybe the Justice Center??   I rather believe good news (SHW HQ, Playhouse Square, London Stock Exchange, etc) draws attention and helps others think/believe why not Cleveland - ie, if you build stuff, they will come.  

[inlovewithCLE]

3 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

The truth is no one knows who would be next.  Maybe an out of town company, maybe a growing company (Alexander Mann), maybe the Justice Center??   I rather believe good news (SHW HQ, Playhouse Square, London Stock Exchange, etc) draws attention and helps others think/believe why not Cleveland - ie, if you build stuff, they will come.  

That’s a hell of a risk you’d be willing to take. That’s like going to the casino and betting your rent money on 7. I’ll pass 

[ethlaw]

6 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

The truth is no one knows who would be next.  Maybe an out of town company, maybe a growing company (Alexander Mann), maybe the Justice Center??   I rather believe good news (SHW HQ, Playhouse Square, London Stock Exchange, etc) draws attention and helps others think/believe why not Cleveland - ie, if you build stuff, they will come.  

 

Skylines aren't really important. Sure, skylines are nice and they make a city more scenic from a distance, but ultimately they don't really matter. Paris doesn't have much of a skyline, yet they're still thriving. 

[E Rocc]

3 hours ago, ethlaw said:

 

Skylines aren't really important. Sure, skylines are nice and they make a city more scenic from a distance, but ultimately they don't really matter. Paris doesn't have much of a skyline, yet they're still thriving. 

 

Historically, true.   But La Defense is rather impressive.

 

 

[Guest skiwest]

Seems like they should at least be able to announce the HQ site.

[Guest ytown2ctown]

The PCG sales meeting this year is Feb 10-12 in Orlando. Not sure if they will wait until then or not?

[Chazz Michael Michaels]

9 hours ago, ethlaw said:

 

Skylines aren't really important. Sure, skylines are nice and they make a city more scenic from a distance, but ultimately they don't really matter. Paris doesn't have much of a skyline, yet they're still thriving. 

The jobs and the retention of a major corporation are the most important things and I am not suggesting that someone build something on spec - my point is that Public Square (like Times Square, the Magnificent Mile, maybe La Defense as a more recent example) are such unique and historic spots that it seems like a missed opportunity to build something impressive on those spaces.  30 floors is nothing to be upset about.  I wouldn't mind seeing something similar or taller, perhaps from the Justice Center, on another PS lot.  There are plenty of other locations in Cleveland for organizations interested in something less dramatic.  Why choose PS if you don't respect how distinct, unique and historic it is.  Having a dramatic Public Square only adds to the allure of Cleveland IMO

[KJP]

1 hour ago, NR said:

 

Just an idea.  One block alone of the two Weston SuperBlocks is a little over 100k sqft, if they're willing to build 3-4 stories then that should work fine.  That would leave them with the second of the two SuperBlocks, along with the smaller Weston lot to the north of the SuperBlocks for the rest of the buildings and parking garages.... and the Jacobs lot for the HQ. 

 

It sounds closer to the plan we originally expected, and it would cause more height from all buildings involved(except maybe the R&D building that would only be 3-4 stories, unless they included parking above or below). 

 

I personally think this would be the best way to go(easy to say when its not my money), however, this would put R&D and the HQ as close as possible.  It may negate the open space/walking gardens idea(unless they built higher and left room on the ground), but at the same time they would be one block from public square... I feel like that is a great walking space - plus it would activate the square with more pedestrians.

 

Thoughts? 

 

Except, from what I understand, that in addition to the tower on the Jacobs lot there's going to hundreds of thousands (500K, 600K, etc) of square feet of offices spread around the Weston superblock along with perhaps a million square feet of parking structures not only for SHW but also to replace the existing surface parking lost to development. That alone could mean average structural heights of 8 stories/levels throughout the Superblock. Some will be shorter. Some will be taller. And will a hotel be included in the Superblock or other accessory uses? I don't know but I wouldn't be surprised. If so, that's going to bump up the density even more.

 

Since SHW isn't going with a supertall on the Jacobs lot, there isn't going to be enough room on the Weston lots for the R&D. It's going to be very interesting to see where the R&D lands.

[Sapper Daddy]

@KJP do you have a feel for what amenities will be built into the HQ?  I know you mentioned Bedrock jumped back in the race by offering a hotel and residential.  Is there another developer working to add something similar to Weston-Jacobs?

[KJP]

31 minutes ago, Sapper Daddy said:

.25% *
 

@KJP do you have a feel for what amenities will be built into the HQ?  I know you mentioned Bedrock jumped back in the race by offering a hotel and residential.  Is there another developer working to add something similar to Weston-Jacobs?

 

Unfortunately, I don't. BTW, while I'm sure Bedrock told SHW that it wanted them to be part of a mixed use development, my understanding is that Bedrock wanted to pursue the residential and hotel with/without SHW. Clearly, the mixed use has a better shot of happening and probably at a larger scale with SHW at Riverview. But the Jacobs/Weston lots aren't exactly far away either. They only whale office building being considered downtown is the Justice Center's Courthouse Tower. After SHW lands on Jacobs/Weston, it will clarify future landing spots for the courthouse tower. I'm sure Bedrock will be in the mix unless, by some magic, the R&D lands there.

 

Also, yes the city's tax rate went up. But that wasn't the only thing that went up. Don't forget the COMPELLING DATA section in my Dec. 23 piece to which @Pugu referred....

 

But after the tax increase impacts were added, a changing population demographic and an increasing number of jobs in Cleveland have pushed the city's income tax revenues another 10 percent higher.

 

When combining the results from that tax hike and the city's changing population makeup and job growth, the city's income tax receipts grew a whopping 35 percent, from $314,801,172 in 2016 to a conservative projection of $424,869,173 this year. 

 

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/12/cleveland-got-lot-wealthier-in-just-3.html

[Frmr CLEder]

So glad to hear that the City's coffers are improving.

[mrclifton88]

From this afternoon... just imagine 

 

[Silent Matt]

Ok so we got 55 Public square at 22 stories and 300 feet...sooo, let’s say SW tower is 30 stories and 450 feet...BAM, there ya go!

 

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Silent Matt

[E Rocc]

On 1/13/2020 at 1:07 PM, CbusTransit said:

The idea that you cannot be both secure and have a boardwalk is a false trade off. The jail is downtown. The cleveland fed is downtown. Various banks are downtown. These are all places that require security and are publicly accessible.

 

We're talking about windows where you can see right in, passing by.

[Garfield12323]

I was in the rock to visit a client this morning - hopefully I can provide further updates from here!

[KJP]

2 minutes ago, Garfield12323 said:

I was in the rock to visit a client this morning - hopefully I can provide further updates from here!

 

 

For a good reason, you won't be able to after this year.  

[simplythis]

32 minutes ago, Garfield12323 said:

I was in the rock to visit a client this morning - hopefully I can provide further updates from here!

Sorry  - But what is the rock?

[KJP]

6 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Sorry  - But what is the rock?

 

The Rockefeller Building

[ASPhotoman]

Great vantage point @Garfield12323! Hope you don't mind, but I used your photo to create a size comparison so people can get a sense of what certain heights will look like on the lot. 

[mrnyc]

^ nice work -- thank you.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Garfield12323 said:

I was in the rock to visit a client this morning - hopefully I can provide further updates from here!

 

 

aww wow -- now there is an awesome parting view to remember the lots by -- i am almost nostalgic already.

 

NOT lol!

Edited January 15, 2020 by mrnyc

[nayrmot]

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

For a good reason, you won't be able to after this year.  

 

What is happening with The Rockefeller Building?

[KJP]

5 hours ago, nayrmot said:

 

What is happening with The Rockefeller Building?

 

A development is imminent. Details to follow.

Edited January 15, 2020 by KJP

[tagalong]

5 hours ago, KJP said:

 

A development is imminent. Details to follow.

Sorry and please don’t ban me or close the thread mods for being off topic but where would an update on the rock be posted? Warehouse District thread? Or does it have its own?

[MissinOhio]

2 minutes ago, tagalong said:

Sorry and please don’t ban me or close the thread mods for being off topic but where would an update on the rock be posted? Warehouse District thread? Or does it have its own?

 

Cleveland Development Thread.  The Columbus posters talk about this thread constantly.  Let's not give them something to talk about.  That view from the Rockefeller Building is impressive.  Cleveland has some impressive streetwalls, and I am sure they will look great from the new headquarters.

[surfohio]

There are currently clear windows at Breen, and an adjacent public sidewalk.