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Cleveland: Downtown: Jacobs' Public Square Property

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5 minutes ago, KJP said:

Yep. I met with a member of the DiGeronimo family a few months ago. They definitely want SHW to come to Valor Acres.

I hope SHW knows how devastating a move that would be to Cleveland. 

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15 minutes ago, marty15 said:

I hope SHW knows how devastating a move that would be to Cleveland. 

I know that they would lose at least one customer (aka me) if they do something that crazy. 

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Ironic that what was a big plus for Cleveland and University Circle (the consolidation of the two VA campuses in Cleveland) could turn into an even bigger minus if

SW now moves to the vacant Brecksville property.

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Any developer would love to build for SW just like almost any city would bend over backwards to make way for them.  Cleveland is doing the same to Brecksville, perhaps on a greater scale to Brecksville’s detriment, by attempting to lure Cross Country.  

 

My hope is those who decide on SW’s future home understand the importance of visibility and talent acquisition/retention making DT Cleveland an easy choice.

Edited by Sapper Daddy
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I just can't see SHW going all the way out to pasture. I am pretty sure every single philanthropic body in Cleveland (Cleveland Foundation, GCP, etc). are all going to push for reducing sprawl like this. The city will more than likely give a decent tax break to have a shiny new HQ tower in their skyline. Everyone is going to want them downtown. I know the DiGeronimo family has some clout in CLE, but I don't see it being enough to make a difference. They might get the R&D but that's likely the worst case scenario.

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7 minutes ago, YO to the CLE said:

I just can't see SHW going all the way out to pasture. I am pretty sure every single philanthropic body in Cleveland (Cleveland Foundation, GCP, etc). are all going to push for reducing sprawl like this. The city will more than likely give a decent tax break to have a shiny new HQ tower in their skyline. Everyone is going to want them downtown. I know the DiGeronimo family has some clout in CLE, but I don't see it being enough to make a difference. They might get the R&D but that's likely the worst case scenario.

The one benefit that SHW might have to locating in Brecksville is having access to the Akron labor market as well as Cleveland.  In the end though, I see them using the Brecksville site to extract subsidies from Cleveland. 

Edited by freefourur

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^ I highly doubt SHW is looking to move to Brecksville for that reason. They're able to draw candidates to Cleveland from all over the world. They don't need labor from Akron.

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If the R & D Building goes to Brecksville, and the tower gets built in Downtown Cleveland

Then what was all this talk that the R & D building had to be within walking distance

of the headquarters building.

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I ride the E-line almost every morning. I know it’s only a small percentage, but I see tons of kids my age getting off at public square with SHW gear. There’s a just a huge draw for such a huge company to be in an urban center. Access and public transit is just one of the many things. Cleveland lost a lot with other companies, but suburbanizing HQs seems to be a lot less popular now. What young, educated person wants to be in farmland? 

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I’m saying none of it can go to Brecksville. You need to be able to attract the best talent for your  R&D. All those people in Minneapolis set to relocate are gonna take one look around Brecksville and say no thanks, I’ll find something at home. SHW still needs to retain a good % of the Valspar team. And give them a good reason to come here. It’s a tight labor market.

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Nothing's been decided. And no one said the HQ and R&D structures "had" to be within walking distance. They "like" being within walking distance of each other. I'm sure there are SHW executives who have preferences, but I doubt anyone has made up their minds yet. They don't have any proposals to review yet, so there's no information to weigh. And I'm getting only bits and pieces of information from sources that, every so often, amass enough of a picture to justify sharing them or at least to pose questions based on the pieces of info.

 

One interesting thing to consider is the parking situation for the HQ and R&D facilities -- not just the walking proximity between them. From what little I've heard, it's not part of the square footage info I've heard thus far. But suffice it to say that the parking is going to figure heavily into the upcoming decision-making process. I think it may have a strong influence on where both facilities are located. And they could have a strong influence of how they're going to be built. Consider this -- a parking deck serving both the HQ and the R&D could be in the 3,000-car range. That's 900,000 sf or possibly more! And that's also a cost of $90 million or more. Might be nice to share some of the expenses between the R&D and HQ facilities, and possibly even design the deck to accommodate future expansion above it.

 

SHW Jacobs Lot-Weston scenario.jpg

Edited by KJP
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"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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This whole SW new headquarters building is a 30+ year ''rumor'' complete with proposals etc.  It's an old story.  Currently we have RFP for the end of the year for a new tower, no make that a 300,00 sf R&D project, with the ''family'' wanting everything in Brecksville.  

 

Hope to see a supertall SWH building on Public Square but would not dismiss anything about SW moving to Brecksville or some other suburban location.  Eaton left recently and Progressive isn't planning on moving HQ downtown again.  Then we had the downtown Medical Mutual HQ building rumor mill...

 

Bottom line is SW will do whatever is in its and shareholders' best financial interest.

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42 minutes ago, KJP said:

Nothing's been decided. And no one said the HQ and R&D structures "had" to be within walking distance. They "like" being within walking distance of each other. I'm sure there are SHW executives who have preferences, but I doubt anyone has made up their minds yet. They don't have any proposals to review yet, so there's no information to weigh. And I'm getting only bits and pieces of information from sources that, every so often, amass enough of a picture to justify sharing them or at least to pose questions based on the pieces of info.

 

One interesting thing to consider is the parking situation for the HQ and R&D facilities -- not just the walking proximity between them. From what little I've heard, it's not part of the square footage info I've heard thus far. But suffice it to say that the parking is going to figure heavily into the upcoming decision-making process. I think it may have a strong influence on where both facilities are located. And they could have a strong influence of how they're going to be built. Consider this -- a parking deck serving both the HQ and the R&D could be in the 3,000-car range. That's 900,000 sf or possibly more! And that's also a cost of $90 million or more. Might be nice to share some of the expenses between the R&D and HQ facilities, and possibly even design the deck to accommodate future expansion above it.

 

SHW Jacobs Lot-Weston scenario.jpg

Based on this footprint how many floors would that be for the tower and the 3000 car parking garage?

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Just now, simplythis said:

Based on this footprint how many floors would that be for the tower and the 3000 car parking garage?

A 3,000 car parking garage and tower in one....geez, and on the jacobs lot...can't imagine that even being considered.

 

The AmeriTrust Tower plans had the parking garage on the west side of W 3rd Street, now known as the Weston-WHD lots.

 

Edited by Oxford19

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It's about 300-350 square feet per parking space for a parking garage (includes aisles, elevator lobbies, etc). Putting a SHW parking deck on the Weston lots with this footprint would mean a parking garage about 11.6 levels tall.

 

Put it on the Jacobs lot with a 1.2M-1.3M tower above it?? Actually, the footprint for the Jacobs lot is about 50,000 sf. So the deck would be about 18 levels. Not that horrible, although it would take a while to drive up to the 18th level! 😛


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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17 minutes ago, KJP said:

Put it on the Jacobs lot with a 1.2M-1.3M tower above it?? Actually, the footprint for the Jacobs lot is about 50,000 sf. So the deck would be about 18 levels. Not that horrible, although it would take a while to drive up to the 18th level! 😛

 

Perfect opportunity for one of those parking garage elevators like in Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol!

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16 hours ago, KJP said:

Nothing's been decided. And no one said the HQ and R&D structures "had" to be within walking distance. They "like" being within walking distance of each other. I'm sure there are SHW executives who have preferences, but I doubt anyone has made up their minds yet. They don't have any proposals to review yet, so there's no information to weigh. And I'm getting only bits and pieces of information from sources that, every so often, amass enough of a picture to justify sharing them or at least to pose questions based on the pieces of info.

 

One interesting thing to consider is the parking situation for the HQ and R&D facilities -- not just the walking proximity between them. From what little I've heard, it's not part of the square footage info I've heard thus far. But suffice it to say that the parking is going to figure heavily into the upcoming decision-making process. I think it may have a strong influence on where both facilities are located. And they could have a strong influence of how they're going to be built. Consider this -- a parking deck serving both the HQ and the R&D could be in the 3,000-car range. That's 900,000 sf or possibly more! And that's also a cost of $90 million or more. Might be nice to share some of the expenses between the R&D and HQ facilities, and possibly even design the deck to accommodate future expansion above it.

 

SHW Jacobs Lot-Weston scenario.jpg

 

This is more or less how I was envisioning it. 3,000 spaces is a lot, but yeah. I would hope there would be first floor retail frontage along W 3 & W 6th in the garage, especially W 6th to be in line with the bar/restaurant district. That’s a huge lot, about 120K sq ft. The one north of it is even large at around 150K. Key Tower’s floor area is only around 30K sq ft. Lots of potential with these giant lots. 

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2 hours ago, imjustinjk said:

 

This is more or less how I was envisioning it. 3,000 spaces is a lot, but yeah. I would hope there would be first floor retail frontage along W 3 & W 6th in the garage, especially W 6th to be in line with the bar/restaurant district. That’s a huge lot, about 120K sq ft. The one north of it is even large at around 150K. Key Tower’s floor area is only around 30K sq ft. Lots of potential with these giant lots. 

1st floor of the parking garage could be a SW mega retail store. Every color you could ever imagine!...and t-shirts!

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3 hours ago, imjustinjk said:

 

This is more or less how I was envisioning it. 3,000 spaces is a lot, but yeah. I would hope there would be first floor retail frontage along W 3 & W 6th in the garage, especially W 6th to be in line with the bar/restaurant district. That’s a huge lot, about 120K sq ft. The one north of it is even large at around 150K. Key Tower’s floor area is only around 30K sq ft. Lots of potential with these giant lots. 

I like this concept.  If it was realized I would hope it would not spawn pedestrian bridges over W3rd.  Unfortunately I see that as inevitable.

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Looks like the County will be releasing an RFP to design, finance, build, and operate a downtown microgrid that was previously pitched as part of the Amazon bid. I don't think it's crazy to assume this could be SW related considering it pertains to the Jacobs Lot and is being released in parallel with SW's search:

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/06/cuyahoga-county-and-cleveland-take-steps-toward-microgrid-while-key-player-stays-quiet.html

 

If SW is looking to build R&D downtown, it would make sense that they could place value on grid resiliency. 

 

 

Edited by ASP1984
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21 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I like this concept.  If it was realized I would hope it would not spawn pedestrian bridges over W3rd.  Unfortunately I see that as inevitable.

 

You're telling me that you don’t want a gerbil tunnel system like Minneapolis (or our own CSU). Although I will admit, as someone who walks across W. 3rd very frequently, that road is a pedestrian shit show. I just walk (on the diagonal xwalk at Frankfort) and expect cars to yield to me. Has worked out well enough over the past couple years. Only been almost hit a few times. 

Edited by imjustinjk
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Ideally, I'd love retail frontage all around the footprint of that hypothetical project posted by KJP. However, if that's not possible, I'd prioritize Superior and W. 6th over W. 3rd. Superior is such a major street through downtown and it's currently a bit pathetic how much of a deadzone it is. And W. 6th already has some decent activity, but only for a couple blocks, so I'd love to see that activity capitalized and expanded. W. 3rd, on the other hand, almost seems beyond saving in that regard. 

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1 hour ago, imjustinjk said:

 

You're telling me that you don’t want a gerbil tunnel system like Minneapolis (or our own CSU). Although I will admit, as someone who walks across W. 3rd very frequently, that road is a pedestrian shit show. I just walk (on the diagonal xwalk at Frankfort) and expect cars to yield to me. Has worked out well enough over the past couple years. Only been almost hit a few times. 

i'm sure during the bitter cold winter months the tunnel system of Minneapolis, or the vast underground city of Montreal for that matter, is a godsend. It has its place in certain locales.

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5 hours ago, Terdolph said:

I would be OK with a tunnel between the Jacobs lot and the W 3rd. lots but not a gerbil tube.

 

What if it was a modern Ponte Vecchio - an overpass lined with retail?

 

(I’m joking. Although now the concept is kind of growing on me.)

 

For the record, I agree that an underpass tunnel would be a better option. And make the underpass go all the way to the Tower City Rapid Station in order to encourage ridership. 

 

DEF3B097-E90D-45FE-9C17-1811FB637847.thumb.jpeg.88e3d63d08ae65d369afb94000ad4711.jpeg

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I can’t imagine it’d be too difficult to create a tunnel under Superior to create a way back to the Tower City rapid station. The TC garage is essentially underground right across the street. The tunnel from the Hilton to the county garage was probably more difficult, and a longer stretch.

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28 minutes ago, marty15 said:

I can’t imagine it’d be too difficult to create a tunnel under Superior to create a way back to the Tower City rapid station. The TC garage is essentially underground right across the street. The tunnel from the Hilton to the county garage was probably more difficult, and a longer stretch.

 

Except Superior is a 130-foot-wide right of way and it has a very large and old water main below it. Oh, it's also a federal highway. If the city or county or state pursues a tunnel below Superior, it might be done in conjunction with replacing that water main like they did from West 6th to West 9th.


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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27 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Except Superior is a 130-foot-wide right of way and it has a very large and old water main below it. Oh, it's also a federal highway. If the city or county or state pursues a tunnel below Superior, it might be done in conjunction with replacing that water main like they did from West 6th to West 9th.

I’m thinking access to their current parking would be a big plus to staying downtown. If it’s even possible. Maybe we get a SHW building at the wedge at Superior and Prospect as part of the complex. And a bridge over Superior. Might even be the ideal spot for R&D. 

Edited by marty15
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5 minutes ago, marty15 said:

I’m thinking access to their current parking would be a big plus to staying downtown. If it’s even possible. Maybe we get a SHW building at the wedge at Superior and Prospect as part of the complex. And a bridge over Superior. Might even be the ideal spot for R&D. 

 

I think that's a cool idea, even though it would require the cooperation of three separate property owners. 


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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18 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I think that's a cool idea, even though it would require the cooperation of three separate property owners. 

 

7490D700-4177-4C95-A539-40D36A6DFC25.gif

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48 minutes ago, marty15 said:

I’m thinking access to their current parking would be a big plus to staying downtown. If it’s even possible. Maybe we get a SHW building at the wedge at Superior and Prospect as part of the complex. And a bridge over Superior. Might even be the ideal spot for R&D. 

that wedge at superior and Prospect is a hideous hole in the ground that needs to be filled in with something

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1 minute ago, shack said:

that wedge at superior and Prospect is a hideous hole in the ground that needs to be filled in with something

I believe there was a hotel proposal for that spot around the time of the Ameritrust proposal. Can anyone drum up a rendition?

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10 hours ago, marty15 said:

I believe there was a hotel proposal for that spot around the time of the Ameritrust proposal. Can anyone drum up a rendition?

 

Done. This is from 1994 and was to be an expansion of the existing hotel...

Renaissance Hotel-1994 expansion plan.jpg

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"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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On 10/6/2007 at 11:44 AM, jamiec said:

So, I'm just going to speculate, using help from that PD info graphic, that Eaton and Ernst & Young (OK, so maybe I'm wrong. I'm a lousy sleuth 🙂 are the two companies that would go halfsies on a skyscraper, as they have the largest number of employees and are two places on the bubble for new leases.

 

I think a skyscraper is stupid in this case -- it doesn't make sense economically or for the urban landscape. I'd much rather have a shorter, more dense neighborhood in the Warehouse District than some Goliath new building that'll probably be ugly and inundate the office market with available space. Where are the tenants going to come from? There's office space all over downtown that's in decent shape.

 

I think a new skyscraper would be an ego-driven venture meant to be a landmark for these companies and the developer. Unfortunately, I don't think it would do anyone else any good.

I disagree. I think that increasing the availability of office space in the CBD that is VERY high end will be attractive to larger firms looking to expand. Additionally, having cleveland with cranes in the sky would certainly look like a market that is expanding especially to an outside investor - continually playing musical chairs in the downtown office market has gone on long enough in my opinion. eventually, every big company HQ'd downtown is going to get sick of it and leave unless there is something new.

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4 minutes ago, CLEInsider101 said:

Considering the Richard E. Jacobs group has been divesting in Cleveland for years, I find this hard to believe they have any plans moving forward on a new ground up construction/development deal in Cleveland. Especially a project of this size... all old plans resurfacing... do your research. 

 

LOL. Who said Jacobs is building anything? Might want to take that research suggestion to heart. You'll be surprised at what you'll find.

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"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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2 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

LOL. Who said Jacobs is building anything? Might want to take that research suggestion to heart. You'll be surprised at what you'll find.

"And it's been reported from several sources, including some I've spoken to at City Hall, that the Richard E. Jacobs Group is seeking to build a 60-story tower on this property owned by Jacobs. " - KJP 

 

you did in the first post......look i think it would be great to have another massive tower downtown. Just don't think jacobs is serious about leading that charge given what they have been up to recently.

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From 12 years ago

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"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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