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1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

You should learn percentages

 

Such as? These are metro numbers, so where did you get 300k vs 900k from?

Edited by Clefan98

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8 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Right, terminal D is proof of that.

 

So are a lot of things. That's life.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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9 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

That's regional growth. The Columbus region has slightly more jobs than Cleveland because Cleveland does not include Akron. So, in fact, it's pretty much comparable. Center city population doesn't really factor in, only regional population.  

 

 

Thanks for picking up what I'm laying down. Those who always seek negativity will surely find it, even when there is none.

Edited by Clefan98
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I really didn't want to get into a debate so I won't be reading this posting or any more on this.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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5 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

 

There's no guarantee that it will be an economic driver. What did building terminal D get Cleveland, mothballs?

 

Technically, it is still under lease.  So it's still generating income for our little aerodrome 🙂

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Not sure the money would be there, as this would likely be vastly more expensive than a billion dollars but here is how I would reconfigure Hopkins while using the same site and basic infrastructure. Would be a multi phase development that ends in having 2 basic terminals with drop off and baggage locations for each, one is the existing and the other new. Each with 2 concourses. New garage with rental car within, new hotel, new multi modal train and bus station across 237 connected to new terminal by people movers. D and A would only have gates on airfield side. B could be configured for gates only on the terminal facing side or both of there is room. Sorry for the poor penmanship. 26D6764E-43C5-4065-B00A-3C9C68700938.thumb.jpeg.7eb1538850d2d7a410fce8e5461f42ec.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Taller_is_better said:

Not sure the money would be there, as this would likely be vastly more expensive than a billion dollars but here is how I would reconfigure Hopkins while using the same site and basic infrastructure. Would be a multi phase development that ends in having 2 basic terminals with drop off and baggage locations for each, one is the existing and the other new. Each with 2 concourses. New garage with rental car within, new hotel, new multi modal train and bus station across 237 connected to new terminal by people movers. D and A would only have gates on airfield side. B could be configured for gates only on the terminal facing side or both of there is room. Sorry for the poor penmanship. 

 

This is awesome - nice work. I particularly like that new terminal location, it really opens up the space. I think rebuilding B where it is, with a short perpendicular gate area at the end, makes more sense than a new remote terminal. I also prefer the current A location, as having gates on both sides keeps the concourse length manageable. I like the tram concept, but I’d have it outside security to connect multimodal transit center, new terminal / rental cars, RTA / old terminal, new international concourse. And Concourse C needs a substantially widening or rebuild. 

 

Thanks for mapping the layout - it’s so much easier to visualize that way. I’ve been thinking about doing the same and you beat me to it. 

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2 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

This is awesome - nice work. I particularly like that new terminal location, it really opens up the space. I think rebuilding B where it is, with a short perpendicular gate area at the end, makes more sense than a new remote terminal. I also prefer the current A location, as having gates on both sides keeps the concourse length manageable. I like the tram concept, but I’d have it outside security to connect multimodal transit center, new terminal / rental cars, RTA / old terminal, new international concourse. And Concourse C needs a substantially widening or rebuild. 

 

Thanks for mapping the layout - it’s so much easier to visualize that way. I’ve been thinking about doing the same and you beat me to it. 

 

Agreed, fantastic work. I do like the separate unit terminal for Concourse B, the only hangup I could see is taxiway clearances with gates on both sides. Concourse C could potentially be razed and a unit terminal ran along the length of the current apron towards the end of the expanded Concourse D. I also like the idea of the people mover connecting multiple nodes landside along the length of the complex. The rendering almost reminds me of the current setup over at Lambert (STL):

 

 

STL.png

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@Taller_is_better inspired me to finally document my thoughts on CLE Hopkins airport renovations as an overlay on top of the satellite image.  He proposed some of the same things I'd been thinking about, and also had suggestions I'd never thought of.   

 

CLE_airport_proposal_1.png.3be84dd0ad26f4156f1e040717c4ed39.png

 

Project timeline:

Phase 1:

- New Arrival/Departure Terminal.  Also keep existing Arr./Dep. Terminal; renovate existing baggage claim area
- Renovate D Concourse so that at least one side can handle 737 / A320 sized jets (my understanding is that it currently cannot)
- New parking garage and rental car center replacing current Orange surface parking lot (good idea on adding rental car to new garage, @Taller_is_better)
- Protected elevated pedestrian walkways (like Boston Logan terminal connections)
- Ground Transit Center (shuttle / ride-share). A permanent building housing a waiting area.

 

Phase 2:

- Replace A Concourse with double level International Concourse, featuring modern Customs & Immigration.
- Full renovation of north security / TSA
- New hotel along 237 (currently Orange parking lot).
- New multimodal transit center (Amtrak, Local Commuter Rail)
- Elevated automated Tram (outside security) connecting International Concourse / Existing Terminal / RTA, to New Terminal / Rental Car / New Hotels, to Multi-modal transit center. 
- Potential future extension of Tram to Red/Blue lot area, for future expansion, hotel, garage, or other

 

Phase 3:

- Rebuild B Concourse.  Add perpendicular gate hall at end. Milwaukee MKE has something similar to this in their Southwest terminal, it's quite nice.
- New AmEx Centurion style lounge near existing food court. (Or in the new Terminal)

- Widen C Concourse.  Keep the main walking corridor with the skylights. Widen towards the runways to add good moving walkways, more gate waiting areas, and significantly better restrooms (the ones in Detroit airport would be a good model).  Existing restaurants on the east side of this concourse could remain as is.
- Renovate current south security / TSA
 

Also evaluate burying 480 and Brookpark Rd in order to extend the runways to the northeast.  My understanding is that longer runways would make longer flights more cost-effective because they don't have to accelerate as quickly and therefore burn less fuel.

 

And in case you'd like to download the powerpoint file I used to create this image and play around with your own layout proposals, I shared the file on Google Drive.  Feel free to download from here:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vB5yKYnK7AhqsWK9jWSfHnBrebSDX0mu/view?usp=sharing

 

 

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On 2/21/2020 at 6:33 PM, Frmr CLEder said:

Sorry its viewed as poisonous, but it's yet another scandal due to the City of Cleveland's mismanagement; one that continues to erode trust in airport operations. It is what it is.

 

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^My understanding is that the poison symbol is intended to be a reaction to the news posted, not how it was posted or the poster of said news. So if I post bad news, I expect to get the “poison” reaction. I agree that it is rather counterintuitive. In short, I’m pretty sure @KJP was agreeing with you and simply reacting to the news. 

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11 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

@Taller_is_better inspired me to finally document my thoughts on CLE Hopkins airport renovations as an overlay on top of the satellite image.  He proposed some of the same things I'd been thinking about, and also had suggestions I'd never thought of.   

 

CLE_airport_proposal_1.png.3be84dd0ad26f4156f1e040717c4ed39.png

 

 

This exercise was also a reminder that there is a significant amount of available space around the exiting terminal for expansion. There really is no need to go tearing down the IX Center to build a new terminal over there. Just keep the terminal where it is, expand it, and then renovate or rebuild the old parts. That way we can leverage the existing infrastructure, such as the Red Line connection, the parking garage, the recently renovated areas, the proximity to the rail lines where Amtrak runs, etc. I’m reasonably confident that this proposal would cost less than starting from scratch. 

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5 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

This exercise was also a reminder that there is a significant amount of available space around the exiting terminal for expansion. There really is no need to go tearing down the IX Center to build a new terminal over there. Just keep the terminal where it is, expand it, and then renovate or rebuild the old parts. That way we can leverage the existing infrastructure, such as the Red Line connection, the parking garage, the recently renovated areas, the proximity to the rail lines where Amtrak runs, etc. I’m reasonably confident that this proposal would cost less than starting from scratch. 

 

The only nit I would pick:  The international arrivals/departures center based on four of the low-numbered gates in today's Concourse C, as proposed in the current (2013?) Master Plan, is the best choice, since it locates the int'l gates more centrally to gates for any possible connecting flight.   Hiking from the north end of your proposed Int'l Concourse to Concourse D would be daunting for lots of old/disabled/child-accompanied travellers.  And if CLE is to have more than one flight to Europe in the mid-2020s, it will need all the connecting passengers that can be mustered.

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There's nothing wrong with optimism, as long as you don't get your hopes up.

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3 hours ago, Dougal said:

 

The only nit I would pick:  The international arrivals/departures center based on four of the low-numbered gates in today's Concourse C, as proposed in the current (2013?) Master Plan, is the best choice, since it locates the int'l gates more centrally to gates for any possible connecting flight.   Hiking from the north end of your proposed Int'l Concourse to Concourse D would be daunting for lots of old/disabled/child-accompanied travellers.  And if CLE is to have more than one flight to Europe in the mid-2020s, it will need all the connecting passengers that can be mustered.


I like it. Renovated A continues as a discount carrier concourse. We would only need a few international gates anyway. 

Edited by Boomerang_Brian
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On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2020 at 9:14 AM, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

This exercise was also a reminder that there is a significant amount of available space around the exiting terminal for expansion. There really is no need to go tearing down the IX Center to build a new terminal over there. Just keep the terminal where it is, expand it, and then renovate or rebuild the old parts. That way we can leverage the existing infrastructure, such as the Red Line connection, the parking garage, the recently renovated areas, the proximity to the rail lines where Amtrak runs, etc. I’m reasonably confident that this proposal would cost less than starting from scratch. 

 

I like it Brian, thanks for using computer graphics vs. my scribbles and white out!  My thoughts on the international / customs being in a new build (A) vs. a few gates in renovated C is that you could really do a clean 2 story concourse where the gates are all open to the other concourses on the top level (so they are used for all flights not just international, but arriving Intl. passengers deplane down escalators to the bottom level where customs is and connects to baggage claim, or they take new escalators up to the terminal towards the current walkway from the food court area to A. I'd worry squeezing it into a reno of C with customs could be clunky.  I think it would be cool, in regards to the long walk to D, I was thinking we would have people movers running thru the new expanses. Its still not that long a walk when you look at airports like MIA or someplace where you can walk for 30 minutes and international flights leave from pretty much any gate.  It could all be amazingly open with lots of glass / light and high ceilings, and I love the new Southwest MKE concourse at end of B. 

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17 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:


I like it. Renovated A continues as a discount carrier concourse. We would only need a few international gates anyway. 

This represents a major improvement, thanks.

As for Brookpark Rd., it seems like there was previously talk of submerging, with runways passing over the roadway, similar to what you see at so many other airports, but they went with simply rerouting Brookpark to the north instead. I guess it was less expensive.

Edited by Frmr CLEder

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Burying I-480 might be a little tricky as there is currently an overpass for Berea Freeway (237) and rail tracks just to the east, unless that section would also be buried. Aren't the recently extended runways long enough now?  Also, It would be nice if Customs & Immigration improvements could be done in phase 1 instead of phase 2 as that issue should be resolved as quickly as possibly.

Edited by skiwest
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2 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

Out of curiosity - assume D Terminal opened up tomorrow. Where is it accessed from? 

 

Leaving

 

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2 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

Out of curiosity - assume D Terminal opened up tomorrow. Where is it accessed from? 


Right now it would be accessed via the tunnel from C. 

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On 2/23/2020 at 3:12 PM, Dougal said:

 

The only nit I would pick:  The international arrivals/departures center based on four of the low-numbered gates in today's Concourse C, as proposed in the current (2013?) Master Plan, is the best choice, since it locates the int'l gates more centrally to gates for any possible connecting flight.   Hiking from the north end of your proposed Int'l Concourse to Concourse D would be daunting for lots of old/disabled/child-accompanied travellers.  And if CLE is to have more than one flight to Europe in the mid-2020s, it will need all the connecting passengers that can be mustered.

 

9 hours ago, skiwest said:

...  Also, It would be nice if Customs & Immigration improvements could be done in phase 1 instead of phase 2 as that issue should be resolved as quickly as possibly.

 

Completely agree on both.  Four new international gates at the base of C, to be built before any other part of the proposal.  These could be two level, with jetbridges on the current main level and escalators carrying international arrivals down to a new customs area.  Get this done ASAP - current customs & immigration at CLE is an embarrassment.

 

I updated my "rendering".

 

CLE_airport_proposal_2.png.3bfee270f63469d750d3c8a8651249f3.png

 

 

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^You need more than four int'l gates. We've already had times where we had three flights all arrive at the same time---MBJ, PUJ, and Iceland--all around 630pm---with 600 people all at once I'm glad I wasn't stuffed into that tiny FIS.  This is to be the airport of the future--at least for the next 20-30 years---so I'd say, we'd need to accommodate AT LEAST six simultaneous int'l arrivals and an FIS big enough to accommodate this. Intl' departures don't require any special gates as planes could leave from any gate. The location where you have it is good, so CLE-bound passengers can exit directly into the CIty instead of the nonsense that happens now forcing all arriving passengers to go through security to enter the airport just to leave it. For anyone that IS connecting in CLE, you need the ability to route those passengers leaving the FIS to go through TSA security before mixing with other passengers. This should be a TSA checkpoint different than the ones for passengers originating in CLE.

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2 minutes ago, Pugu said:

^You need more than four int'l gates. We've already had times where we had three flights all arrive at the same time---MBJ, PUJ, and Iceland--all around 630pm---with 600 people all at once I'm glad I wasn't stuffed into that tiny FIS.  This is to be the airport of the future--at least for the next 20-30 years---so I'd say, we'd need to accommodate AT LEAST six simultaneous int'l arrivals and an FIS big enough to accommodate this. Intl' departures don't require any special gates as planes could leave from any gate. The location where you have it is good, so CLE-bound passengers can exit directly into the CIty instead of the nonsense that happens now forcing all arriving passengers to go through security to enter the airport just to leave it. For anyone that IS connecting in CLE, you need the ability to route those passengers leaving the FIS to go through TSA security before mixing with other passengers. This should be a TSA checkpoint different than the ones for passengers originating in CLE.


Good point - I wasn’t thinking about Caribbean / Mexico tourist flights. 

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@surfohio is that a photo of the actual tunnel? If it's yours great shot! Reminds me a tad of a claustrophobic version of Detroit's. It's crazy what small aesthetic things such as lighting can add to either a concourse walkway or tunnel.

 

image.thumb.png.d1b26bd44b72d08f2d6d6a172f45acbc.png

 

image.thumb.png.4e924429cefec634a92916e419de1f7a.png

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@GISguy  Nah I found it on google, but there's not a lot of pics out there.  I think I've only been through that CLE  tunnel once or twice. Detroit's is like an acid trip! 

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3 hours ago, GISguy said:

@surfohio is that a photo of the actual tunnel? If it's yours great shot! Reminds me a tad of a claustrophobic version of Detroit's. It's crazy what small aesthetic things such as lighting can add to either a concourse walkway or tunnel.

 

It is not claustrophobic at all.  The escalator lobbies were light filled, and the ceilings in the actual tunnel are higher than most.  This may be a better picture.  

IMG_2689.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

It is not claustrophobic at all.  The escalator lobbies were light filled, and the ceilings in the actual tunnel are higher than most.  This may be a better picture.  

 

I always admired the "paper" airplanes that hung (are they still there?) from the ceiling on the D end of the tunnel.

 

img_1739-edit.jpg

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There's nothing wrong with optimism, as long as you don't get your hopes up.

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I never had an opportunity to use Concourse D.  Hopefully, it will be brought back to life when Hopkins is renovated. 

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56 minutes ago, skiwest said:

I never had an opportunity to use Concourse D.  Hopefully, it will be brought back to life when Hopkins is renovated. 

 

It was nice, but I wouldn't say we are missing much in the current concourses.  

 

I personally didn't like it in the summer because the sun would beam through the windows and the AC wouldn't keep up, so it was hot.   And the food options were limited, one of which was Subway, so it always smelled like the bread.....

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Flew into D a couple times when i would use Continental out of CVG. Reminded me alot of Concourse C at CVG that has since been demolished. Its weird how United has dug their heels into CLE. Delta kept CVG as a focus city, didnt strip as many flights as United but gave up A and C gates and half of B to allow the airport to bring in other airlines. I get the business move by United to keep competition out but seems like they are throwing money down a hole. Delta did the exact opposite and are not complaining or losing passenger counts. 

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42 minutes ago, savadams13 said:

Flew into D a couple times when i would use Continental out of CVG. Reminded me alot of Concourse C at CVG that has since been demolished. Its weird how United has dug their heels into CLE. Delta kept CVG as a focus city, didnt strip as many flights as United but gave up A and C gates and half of B to allow the airport to bring in other airlines. I get the business move by United to keep competition out but seems like they are throwing money down a hole. Delta did the exact opposite and are not complaining or losing passenger counts. 

 

Yeah, and they've doubly screwed over Clevelanders because the Cleveland Metro is still more loyal to United than other airlines

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On 2/22/2020 at 10:07 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

@Taller_is_better inspired me to finally document my thoughts on CLE Hopkins airport renovations as an overlay on top of the satellite image.  He proposed some of the same things I'd been thinking about, and also had suggestions I'd never thought of.   

 

CLE_airport_proposal_1.png.3be84dd0ad26f4156f1e040717c4ed39.png

 

 

Very nice.  Although I would get rid of all of the parking adjacent the terminal.  Let everyone arrive via drop-off, bus, or Rapid or some sort of dedicated people-mover/tram.  Move the parking and rental cars off site.  Silly to build a car warehouse so close to the terminal.  (I know, not everyone agrees.)

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I don't think that getting rid of on-site parking will help their customer-satisfaction ratings

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Columbus gets 2nd airline and 3rd daily route this Summer non-stop to Seattle - while CLE continues with limited, seasonal service? I went to SEA last week from CLE for one of my 4 or 5 annual visits (for last 20 years....) - and each direction took  8-10 hours with connection. This just isn't ok for CLE. What will it take for CLE to get year-round service to Seattle on Delta or Alaska?

 

Delta adds 2 Seattle routes, including to American’s Dallas/Fort Worth hub

 

ThePointsGuy.com

Edward Russell

Yesterday

 

 

"Atlanta-based Delta will add flights between Seattle (SEA) and both Columbus, Ohio (CMH) and Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW) on June 8, according to Cirium schedules. Both routes will be flown with Airbus A220-100 jets."

 

 

https://thepointsguy-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/thepointsguy.com/news/delta-adds-seattle-routes-dallas-fort-worth/amp/?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15830913931737&amp_ct=1583091406200&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fthepointsguy.com%2Fnews%2Fdelta-adds-seattle-routes-dallas-fort-worth%2F

Edited by eyehrtfood
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On 2/28/2020 at 11:50 AM, savadams13 said:

Flew into D a couple times when i would use Continental out of CVG. Reminded me alot of Concourse C at CVG that has since been demolished. Its weird how United has dug their heels into CLE. Delta kept CVG as a focus city, didnt strip as many flights as United but gave up A and C gates and half of B to allow the airport to bring in other airlines. I get the business move by United to keep competition out but seems like they are throwing money down a hole. Delta did the exact opposite and are not complaining or losing passenger counts. 

I never liked the setup of Concourse D having to walk through C and then underground to get to D. It would have been nice if they had a train like ATL connecting the concourses. It just seemed a poor setup from the start and not overly functional in the event Continental ever pulled out.

 

The thing about Cleveland's airport, and it has been about 15 years since I last flew in there is that it always seemed just pieced together without much of a master plan. I think the Terminals seemed fine but the concourses did not function well together. They were not connected well, they were old and did not seem like it could be better reconfigured to a modern airport like say Ohare or Hartsfield of DFW. It almost would be better if they could to start over from scratch on the other end of the airfield, kind of like what they have done in Indy. 

Edited by Brutus_buckeye

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7 hours ago, eyehrtfood said:

Columbus gets 2nd airline and 3rd daily route this Summer non-stop to Seattle - while CLE continues with limited, seasonal service? I went to SEA last week from CLE for one of my 4 or 5 annual visits (for last 20 years....) - and each direction took  8-10 hours with connection. This just isn't ok for CLE. What will it take for CLE to get year-round service to Seattle on Delta or Alaska?

 

Delta adds 2 Seattle routes, including to American’s Dallas/Fort Worth hub

 

ThePointsGuy.com

Edward Russell

Yesterday

 

 

"Atlanta-based Delta will add flights between Seattle (SEA) and both Columbus, Ohio (CMH) and Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW) on June 8, according to Cirium schedules. Both routes will be flown with Airbus A220-100 jets."

 

 

https://thepointsguy-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/thepointsguy.com/news/delta-adds-seattle-routes-dallas-fort-worth/amp/?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15830913931737&amp_ct=1583091406200&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fthepointsguy.com%2Fnews%2Fdelta-adds-seattle-routes-dallas-fort-worth%2F

 

This is a lot of capacity for this route, even for the summer.  They have decent load factors so far... on one daily flight.  Once they triple the capacity, I'm not sure it will be sustainable.  Delta is stronger in CMH than American is, and with Alaska and American renewing ties, I wonder if Alaska would consider shifting some of that capacity up north if Delta intrudes enough on their bottom line with this.

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Doesn't Amazon have a large presence in Columbus?  I wonder if that might be a factor?. 

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I wouldn't mind seeing all flights to/from SEA grounded. SEA is the US epicenter of the coronavirus.

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17 minutes ago, skiwest said:

Doesn't Amazon have a large presence in Columbus?  I wonder if that might be a factor?. 

 

Yea, I think they have 3 or 4 fulfillment centers here. I'm not sure that alone is the driver for having two daily (three daily during the summer) flights from CMH to SEA. I think part of it is that Delta sees some available demand for flights to the West coast from CMH. 

 

If you look at the service frequency to the West coast from CMH and CLE, you can see that CLE is served a decent amount better than CMH to the West coast. CLE has 2 daily flights to SFO while CMH has one daily which didn't fly from January 1st through March 5th. CLE has a daily flight to SLC while CMH has a daily that didn't fly January 1st through March 13th. CLE currently has 2-3 daily flights to LAX while CMH only has 1-2, although I believe that will increase to 2-3 fairly soon. 

 

Additionally, Tokyo is one of the top international destinations from CMH due to the fairly large automotive industry presence in Columbus. Adding a flight to SEA likely provides another link to Tokyo from CMH. 

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6 minutes ago, skiwest said:

I believe Columbus also has an Amazon data center.

 

Correct. I think they have one in New Albany and Hilliard and I think they are building one in Dublin. I don't believe the data centers employ many people so I'm not sure how many travel they generate. 

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Re: SEA-CMH, I believe this is a power play by Delta.  They probably see the demand and have a nice base in Columbus.  With their SEA hub, they are probably asking themselves why they are letting Alaska get all of those eats filled.

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The difference between visionary leadership and not...

 

"The two cities (Dallas and Fort Worth) had little use for each other until Texas Instruments’ former leader and Dallas Mayor Erik Jonsson convinced them to go together to build a giant airport midway between the two cities, intended to replace the two older airports that each city maintained.  DFW airport opened in 1973, and American Airlines moved their headquarters from New York City a few years later."

 

The rest is history and a tale of two cities....

 

Unlike DFW, CMH and CVG, CLE is city owned and operated.

Edited by Frmr CLEder

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38 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

The difference between visionary leadership and not...

 

"The two cities (Dallas and Fort Worth) had little use for each other until Texas Instruments’ former leader and Dallas Mayor Erik Jonsson convinced them to go together to build a giant airport midway between the two cities, intended to replace the two older airports that each city maintained.  DFW airport opened in 1973, and American Airlines moved their headquarters from New York City a few years later."

 

The rest is history and a tale of two cities....

 

Unlike DFW, CMH and CVG, CLE is city owned and operated.

 

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2 hours ago, BelievelandD1 said:

Re: SEA-CMH, I believe this is a power play by Delta.  They probably the demand and have a nice base in Columbus.  With their SEA hub, they are probably asking themselves why they are letting Alaska get all of those seats filled.

I checked nonstop airfare from CMH to SEA for a few select dates in July and saw Delta for as low as $217 R/T vs. $310 R/T on Alaska.  So yes, it looks like Delta may be trying to drive out Alaska. Nonstop fare from CLE to SEA for same dates is $280 R/T on Frontier.

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