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Cleveland Hopkins International Airport

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Somehow, the vast majority of European and Asian major cities have high-speed rail and modern efficient airports. Not quite sure why Cleveland has to abandon one for the other.

 

I'm not saying you need to spend billions but the terminal facilities for both passengers and employees are dated. The customs facility is out of 1964. There's stuff to fix beyond the cosmetic which can't hurt the local economic engine.

 

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Just now, Clefan98 said:

 

That would be great. If we do, the airport will reflect that growth, organically.

How do you become a Beta City? What are the requirements? What components will get you there? Denver may be a good example.

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Just now, Frmr CLEder said:

And the 30+% living in poverty?

 

How does that work itself out? They die in the streets?

Move to other locations? How do they get there, fly? Lol

 

#2 and #3 would help the poverty rate.

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I know which cities are alpha, beta, gamma, their derivatives and self-sufficient. That's why I said refer to DEN, or even MSP or PHL, beta cities. Besides having more population, what assets do they have that CLE lacks and how did they get there?

 

The question was, if you aspire to become, at least, a Beta city, what does Cleveland need to do to get there? What still needs to be done?

Edited by Frmr CLEder

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1 hour ago, KJP said:

It's OK to criticize the city. It doesn't mean you don't still love it. Often times, it means quite the opposite.

 

Was it the city's fault that United bought Continental then decided to de hub Hopkins? I don't think so.

 

Hopkins has fared much better and recovered quicker than virtually all airports who lost their hub status. It's also OK to give credit when credit is due.

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Hopkins growth is mostly driven by the consolidation of low cost carriers moving from Akron-Canton to Hopkins. Most other de-hubbed cities didn't have this dynamic.

 

It's a limited growth trajectory which will be nearing an end in the next year or two. City leaders need to start looking at new avenues for growth.

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Excluded Non-Stop Major Cities/Markets:

All are major markets, some are larger cities/regions:

 

Cincinnati, OH

Pittsburgh, PA

Harrisburg, PA

Indianapolis, IN

Islip, NY

Kansas City, MO

Buffalo, NY

Portland, OR

Sacramento, CA

Oakland, CA

Fresno, CA

San Jose, CA

Memphis, TN

Des Moines, IA

Oklahoma City, OK

Orange County, CA

Ontario, CA

Birmingham, AL

San Antonio, TX

Honolulu, HI (10 hours)

 

 

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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Except that's not entirely true:

 

American Airlines is adding flights on two routes to Cleveland that United Airlines is cutting this spring.

The Oneworld alliance carrier will add a fourth daily flight between Cleveland Hopkins International Airport (CLE) and Washington Reagan National (DCA) on June 4, the Cleveland airport unveiled Friday.

The same day, American will shift two of its three existing Washington National flights, as well as its four daily New York LaGuardia (LGA) flights to either Bombardier CRJ700 or Embraer E175 jets — both have first class and economy cabins — from smaller all-economy Embraer ERJ-140s.

 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/american-airlines-moves-to-fill-united-gap-in-cleveland/

 

And:

 

Guerin adds that there will be no decrease in the overall number of seats United offers between Cleveland and Washington/New York. "In fact, we expect to increase the total number of premium seats in 2020 as a result of these changes," he wrote. United plans to use their mainline aircraft instead of regional aircraft for flights from Cleveland to Chicago O'Hare, Newark and Washington Dulles International, resulting in slight overall seat growth but additional premium seats year-over-year. 

United also intends to add to their current schedule of nonstop flights from CLE to Florida this spring, with new weekend non-stop flights to TPA (Tampa), FLL (Ft. Lauderdale) and RSW (Ft. Myers).

 

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/united-airlines-to-discontinue-direct-flights-from-cle-to-laguardia-reagan-this-spring/95-e8dcb2df-3d6e-4bd1-933f-a236666c2061

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29 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Was it the city's fault that United bought Continental then decided to de hub Hopkins? I don't think so.

 

Hopkins has fared much better and recovered quicker than virtually all airports who lost their hub status. It's also OK to give credit when credit is due.

Where are you suggesting that credit should be given? To the City of Cleveland or UAL?

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1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Where are you suggesting that credit should be given? To the City of Cleveland or UAL?

 

To the city for rebounding so quickly, unlike most airports after a de hub.

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I have the same feelings as AmrapinVA.

 

The discount airlines jumped from CAK, to fill the UAL void/gates with some legacy infill. My concern is that CLE may be taken over by discount carriers only, with mostly vacation destinations.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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5 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I have the same feelings as AmrapinVA.

 

The discount airlines jumped from CAK, to fill the UAL void/gates with some legacy infill. My concern is that CLE may be taken over by discount carriers only, with mostly vacation destinations.

 

Having discount airliners and legacy airliners isn't a binary choice. We can and will have both. I just posted two very recent articles about legacy airlines EXPANDING service in CLE.

Edited by Clefan98

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It's predominantly increased capacity to existing destinations/markets, not service to new destinations/markets.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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American also recently abandoned Cleveland-Kennedy plans so I'm not sure there's a net increase of seats for American at Cleveland. United is basically down to hubs and Florida. Will Florida be around once the Concourse D lease is up? I do wonder.

 

There is room for Spirit and Frontier growth but Cleveland is not Orlando and at some point all the vacation destinations will be covered. Then what? Is the city asking these questions? Not sure.

Edited by AmrapinVA
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5 minutes ago, AmrapinVA said:

American also recently abandoned Cleveland-Kennedy plans so I'm not sure there's a net increase of seats for American at Cleveland. United is basically down to hubs and Florida. Will Florida be around once the Concourse D lease is up? I do wonder.

 

There is room for Spirit and Frontier growth but Cleveland is not Orlando, at some point all the vacation destinations will be covered. Then what? Is the city asking this questions? Not sure.

 

American also increased service to LGA. There is an overall net increase in seats.

 

You're correct about United. It's not a Cleveland issue though.

Edited by Clefan98

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18 minutes ago, AmrapinVA said:

American also recently abandoned Cleveland-Kennedy plans so I'm not sure there's a net increase of seats for American at Cleveland. United is basically down to hubs and Florida. Will Florida be around once the Concourse D lease is up? I do wonder.

 

There is room for Spirit and Frontier growth but Cleveland is not Orlando and at some point all the vacation destinations will be covered. Then what? Is the city asking this questions? Not sure.

This is unfortunate because JFK is a key American gateway to Europe and Central/South America.

 

If nothing else, one advantage of CLE's location has been that it's a short hop to ORD, JFK, EWR, DTW or MSP for one-stop international flights.

 

Eliminating JFK is a big loss.

 

As for UAL, who cares?

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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Just now, Clefan98 said:

 

American also increased service to LGA. There is an overall net increase in seats.

You can't fly overseas from LGA.

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7 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It's predominantly increased capacity to existing destinations, not service to new destinations.

 

There's not many new destinations to add domestically.

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The American exec quote says "premium seats" which makes sense as most of the flights to Kennedy and LaGuardia were small regional jets before United the Queens market. Now LaGuardia is on an a larger American aircraft. 

 

Overall seat growth though, not sure.

Edited by AmrapinVA

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2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

You can't fly overseas from LGA.

 

That's fine, we have access to airports that do.

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2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

How do Clevelanders today get from CLE to CVG?

Drive 6 1/2 hours, or connect through DTW or ORD.

 

That's crazy!

 

It's a 40min flight from Burke to Lunken without the hassle of going thru security. I use this about 2-3x a month. It's fantastic.

Edited by Clefan98
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Another non-legacy carrier that has moved in to fill the legacy carrier void. The good news is that it represents more volume at BKL, which it needs.

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3 minutes ago, AmrapinVA said:

The American exec quote says "premium seats" which makes sense as most of the flights to Kennedy and LaGuardia were small regional jets before United left. Now LaGuardia is on an a larger aircraft. 

 

Overall seat growth though, not sure.

 

Larger Aircraft, More Seats To Hubs

 

The news is not all bad for Cleveland residents, though. United still serves nearby Newark and Washington Dulles airports and will upguage aircraft in those markets to compensate for the service loss to DCA and LGA. The net result will be more premium seats out of Cleveland.

Overall, United grew 3.6% in Cleveland in 2019 and expects further growth in 2020.

 

https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/2020/01/21/united-cleveland-cuts/

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Domestic Adds:

 

Key business markets not served daily and year-round by Hopkins: Seattle, Portland, San Diego, San Jose and Kansas City. Austin?

 

Florida is covered.

 

There's work to be done.

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1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Another non-legacy carrier that has moved in to fill the legacy carrier void. The good news is that it represents more volume at BKL, which it needs.

 

This non-legacy beats the crap out of any legacy service we once had to CIN.

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2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten.

 

Great quote, but little of that is applicable to 21st century airport metrics. There's so many factors involved, a simple saying won't fix it.

Edited by Clefan98

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Just now, Clefan98 said:

 

Great quote, but little of that is applicable to 21st century airport metrics. There's so many factors involved, a simple saying won't fix it.

No. You simply rely upon the status quo of "inferior service to key markets."

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I'm in the camp that thinks Hopkins works pretty well as is.  I don't travel as often as I once did for work, but I think the convenience of CLE (proximity to downtown, transit options, ease of security, distance to gates) is very strong compared to most airports around the country.  I think there's even a better mix of food options than you find at many larger airports. 

 

As for destinations, when you look at our peer markets, the difference in air service is pretty limited, and in many cases CLE has better domestic service.  STL probably has the best mix of destinations in the peer set, but that is a SW hub.  

 

While it's true that airlines finance renovations, that is all passed along to consumers in the form of higher fares. I'd prefer to see CLE focus on keeping fares low and expand destinations as much as possible through low gate fees and other incentives.  I don't think adding a huge amount to the debt load for a shiny new terminal is going to convince airlines to add service... they are pretty sophisticated at assessing demand.  

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17 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

No. You simply rely upon the status quo of "inferior service to key markets."

 

Because there's so many outside factors. We have inferior service because of inferior demand and our close location to competitive markets. If you're not a hub, you don't matter. This is how the airline industry in 2020 works.

Edited by Clefan98

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It's not coincidence almost 100% of cities who want to be connected globally see investment in an airport as a benefit for their regions.

 

Regionally:

 

Columbus is expanding.

Kansas City is basically getting a whole new airport

Pittsburgh is updating their Terminal and Airside gates yet again

Detroit and Indianapolis each have a modern palace

LaGuardia and O'Hare are getting billion dollar face jobs.

 

The global trend is not to go Cleveland's "status-quo" way.

Edited by AmrapinVA
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10 minutes ago, AmrapinVA said:

It's not coincidence almost 100% of cities who want to be connected globally see investment in an airport as a benefit for their regions.

 

Regionally:

 

Columbus is expanding.

Kansas City is basically getting a whole new airport

Pittsburgh is updating their Terminal and Airside gates yet again

Detroit and Indianapolis each have a modern palace

LaGuardia and O'Hare are getting billion dollar face jobs.

 

The global trend is not to go Cleveland's "status-quo" way.

 

Yet job growth indicators say Cleveland is doing better than all of those cities. Maybe it's not the airport?

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The construction of a new terminal at CLE will likely be predicated on the fact that it will no longer be feasible to update and expand the existing structures that make up the current terminal.

 

The headhouse and concourses are a hodgepodge of buildings that have been renovated and expanded over decades. The bones of some date back to the 1950s. Air travel and the infrastructure needed to support it have changed substantially since then. The dynamics of passengers flows at CLE have also shifted. With the facility catering to O&D passengers more than ever, a greater number of people are using the headhouse and security areas of the terminal. At some point, it will be more cost-effective to start from scratch with a new building rather than try and update and expand the current one.

 

As mentioned by others, there’s nothing saying that a new terminal must be some kind of Taj Mahal. However, it should be an all-encompassing endeavor. Both the landside and airside should be taken into consideration as well as focus on sustainability as much as possible. It will no doubt be expensive, but good transport infrastructure generally is. And only in the past few years have we learned that if we let it deteriorate, it’s far more costly in terms of money to fix, operating expenses, and general perception in the long run.

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41 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

This is unfortunate because JFK is a key American gateway to Europe and Central/South America.

 

If nothing else, one advantage of CLE's location has been that it's a short hop to ORD, JFK, EWR, DTW or MSP for one-stop international flights.

 

Eliminating JFK is a big loss.

 

As for UAL, who cares?

 

That's actually not true.  AA is gutting their hub at JFK, and placing emphasis on CLT and (especially) PHL as their European gateway. AA also cut flights to JFK from MSP, DTW, SAN, IAH, MCO, DCA, the list of large cites goes on.  This is NOT a issue with CLE.

 

American Airlines Appears to Be Entering a Death Spiral at New York JFK

 

 MIA is AA's key hub to central/South America, which AA just upgauged from CLE with a significant addition in seats and premium seats.

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10 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Yet job growth indicators say Cleveland is doing better than all of those cities. Maybe it's not the airport?

"Job growth numbers" is wide-open to interpretation....Percent increase, percent of population empoyed, actual number of jobs, city, region.

 

I wonder how many jobs a new CLE Terminal will generate?

Edited by Frmr CLEder

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1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

"Job growth numbers" is wide-open to interpretation....Percent increase, percent of population empoyed, actual number of jobs.

 

I wonder how many jobs a new CLE Terminal will generate?

 

It's not wide open interpretation. The same metrics apply across all metros. Give it up, you're trying too hard.

 

A new terminal would create some nice temporary construction jobs.

Edited by Clefan98

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If you believe that Cleveland has more job growth than any of the cities listed, cite your reference ff.

Edited by Frmr CLEder

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6 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

"Job growth numbers" is wide-open to interpretation....Percent increase, percent of population empoyed, actual number of jobs, city, region.

 

I wonder how many jobs a new CLE Terminal will generate?

 

As far as the end result (corporate attraction/retention, perceived prestige, etc) I don’t disagree with you, @KJP, et al on this, as far as perception is concerned. But I really think you are overestimating the ability of impact the city or county or even the local corporate community can have on the type of air service you’re talking about. This is much more an industry question than a local governance question. And in today’s airline industry, the Legacy carriers have largely eschewed point-to-point flying, preferring to route all of their traffic through their fortress hubs. 

 

And that’s not Frank Jackson’s fault, that’s the result of the hangover of expensive jet fuel, industry consolidation in the 2000s, perhaps not building a giant greenfield airport in Richfield, and ultimately, deregulation in the 1970s. CLE never was a fortress hub (no one pulling paycheck at CLE or 601 Lakeside can be blamed for that) and very very likely never will be, and so CLE will never see the type of service all of us wish it had. 

 

The fact remains, outside of Boston and I think Orlando, United still does more point-to-point flying out of Cleveland than anywhere else in its network. So while it’s frustrating they pulled the “hub” (which it really was in name only), UA still gives CLE routes and frequencies that most other airports it’s size would be very enviable of. Delta is generally more willing to do more P2P flying than the other legacies (and does so out of Cleveland with BDL, LGA, and RDU), but even then has its limits. 

 

Few on here would dispute that Columbus has had the type of business attraction success that apparently CLE prevents NE Ohio from having, but that’s certainly not due to the service levels at CMH. And CVG’s superior route network as a Delta focus city/former fortress hub has not prevented it from losing a number of F500/F1000 HQs in recently history. 

 

And as far as rental car facilities go, please, I don’t see very many high growth companies avoiding Northern Virginia or the Bay Area just because of the interminable slog to the rental companies at IAD or SFO, for example. And it would probably blow the minds of those that complain about the convoluted ride share/“transportation center” at Hopkins to find that darling of high-tech growth and enviable corporate development, Austin, is some how able to still thrive with at least twice as convoluted an arrangement at Bergstrom. Tilting at windmills here, IMHO. 

 

So where does that leave an airport like a Cleveland? Going after the non-legacies that are not so beholden to the hub-and-spoke model. And in that respect, as many others have commented, CLE has done quite well. Frontier and Sprit both have among their more sizeable operations in CLE, with Allegiant not far behind. This is what the CLE’s of the world can build their traffic on these days, and in that respect CLE has arguably been more successful than all of its peers. 

 

Lastly, the 737 Max grounding is undoubtedly having an effect on route development out of places like Cleveland. Southwest would likely be operating MCI and daily to DAL and/or HOU if it wasn’t for that, filling some of the holes out of CLE. Time will tell.  But wishing that CLE had the type of service that you’ll only see at hubs these days is, unfortunately, a wasted expenditure of effort. Let’s focus on service improvements to key holes in the network, and providing a terminal facility that has some aesthetic charm to match its user friendly compactness, expedient security lines, and convenience to the center city. 

Edited by brtshrcegr
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^ Finally someone who understands the airline industry at more than a cursory level speaking the truth. It's refreshing to hear from posters that produce statements based in the reality of air travel circa 2020. Thank you!

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3 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

If you believe that Cleveland has more job growth than any of the cities listed, cite your reference ff.

I believe everything I type because facts are on my side.

 

2019 yoy job growth %

 

Cleveland - 1.2%

Columbus - 1.2%

Kansas City - 1%

Pittsburgh - .1%

Detroit - 0%

Indianapolis - .7%

NYC - 1%

Chicago - .7%

 

Source:

https://www.bls.gov/regions/home.htm

 

Your move.

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I think the original question was how can CLE be used as a driver of economic development?

 

I'd love to respond Milli, but have other things to do right now. You hold that thought.

Edited by Frmr CLEder

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4 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I think the original question was how can CLE be used as a driver of economic development?

 

There's no guarantee that it will be an economic driver. What did building terminal D get Cleveland, mothballs?

Edited by Clefan98
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Yes, there are no guarantees. Of anything.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Finally....

 

1.2% of 900k is a lot more jobs than 1.2% of 300k. Try focusing on actual statistics, not some alternate reality.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Finally....

 

1.2 % of 900k is a lot more jobs than 1.2% of 300k.

That's regional growth. The Columbus region has slightly more jobs than Cleveland because Cleveland does not include Akron. So, in fact, it's pretty much comparable. Center city population doesn't really factor in, only regional population.  

 

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1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Finally....

 

1.2 % of 900k is a lot more jobs than 1.2% of 300k.

 

It would make more sense if you were decent at interpreting data.

Edited by Clefan98
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