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Cleveland Hopkins International Airport

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10 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

 Off-site rental cars are a nuisance, but appear to be pretty much the norm these days.

 

Not necessarily in airports the size of CLE.   And even in bigger airports, the transit time and connection is more direct than the roundabout trip on crap roads that the CLE buses have to make.  

 

To make the airport more competitive, there should be a state of the art rental car facility in the bottom floor(s) of the short term garage.   A new long term garage on the orange lot should be built for additional capacity for long/short term.  

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1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

 

"I rarely have trouble finding direct flights to most of America when traveling out of Cleveland."

- Except for the airline hubs, including the 25 largest cities, you cannot get to most of America non-stop from Cleveland.

 

- Off-site rental cars are a nuisance, but appear to be pretty much the norm these days.

 

"improvements on the J.D. Power customer service rankings,"

- Any improvement is considerable when you're next to last. The only airport that was worse was LGA; that's not a notable position to be in.

 

Let it go, boomer. I stand by my original comments about Hopkins. It's a fine airport that's getting better each year. The numbers prove it.

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1 hour ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Let it go, boomer. I stand by my original comments about Hopkins. It's a fine airport that's getting better each year. The numbers prove it.

No problem Milli!

 

If you guys are satisfied with mediocrity at best, so be it!

 

According to Ted Carter: local hurdles included "inferior air service to key markets," taxes and talent.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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1 hour ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Let it go, boomer. I stand by my original comments about Hopkins. It's a fine airport that's getting better each year. The numbers prove it.

The question though is, is it being leveraged to the max to increase not just the ease of travel, but also regional economic development? 

 

If you look at it like most look at the Greyhound Station then yes. But if you look at it and think about all the economic advantages having a better facility could bring, if done smartly, then no.

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45 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Finally someone with some forethought recognizes the lost opportunities.


What lost opportunities are you referring to? 
 

It hasn't hindered Cleveland's recent ability to attract major national events, jobs and visitors to the city and region. 

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Just now, Clefan98 said:


What lost opportunities are you referring to? 
 

It hasn't hindered Cleveland's recent ability to attract major national events, jobs and visitors to the city and region. 

The opportunities refer to those lost over the last 40 years, or whenever Cleveland last had an airport competitive with the biggest business markets in the nation.

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6 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

The opportunities refer to those lost over the last 40 years, or whenever Cleveland last had an airport competitive with the biggest business markets in the nation.


Nice non answer

Edited by Clefan98
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The Cleveland-Akron-Canton media market is/was the 15th largest in the country. Maybe it's 17th now.

 

Please show me in this list of airports where Cleveland ranks. Feel free to add in CAK to bump up the numbers, too......

 

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_capacity/passenger_allcargo_stats/passenger/media/cy18-commercial-service-enplanements.pdf

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1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

No problem Milli!

 

If you guys are satisfied with mediocrity at best, so be it!

 

According to Ted Carter: local hurdles included "inferior air service to key markets," taxes and talent.

It sounds like the definition of mediocrity is subjective.  To you, mediocrity seems to be dated facilities and caring what people think about CLE when they get here.

 

 

to me, mediocrity is long lines, crappy and overwhelmed customer service and having to carve out an additional hour of my day with my family to get to my gate. And all the delays and runway lines

 

major hubs have advantages but I can leave shaker hts 75 minutes before wheels up and not waste a minute of my day

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14 minutes ago, KJP said:

The Cleveland-Akron-Canton media market is/was the 15th largest in the country. Maybe it's 17th now.

 

Please show me in this list of airports where Cleveland ranks. Feel free to add in CAK to bump up the numbers, too......

 

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_capacity/passenger_allcargo_stats/passenger/media/cy18-commercial-service-enplanements.pdf


#44, in case you don’t want to click that link. Adding in CAK’s 450k would only move it up one spot. 
 

CLE DESPERATELY needs improvement. I wouldn’t call it a total disaster, but even claiming “ok” or “fine” is a big stretch. 

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I was recently at Greensboro/ Spartanburg airport in SC. A true regional airport that does about 20% the traffic of CLE. I was instantly impressed with its light, airy, modern design and wished Hopkins was half as good. If that isn’t damning, I don’t know what it. 

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22 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

I was recently at Greensboro/ Spartanburg airport in SC. A true regional airport that does about 20% the traffic of CLE. I was instantly impressed with its light, airy, modern design and wished Hopkins was half as good. If that isn’t damning, I don’t know what it. 

Sounds nice and also waste of money. The airport isn't going to be the deciding factor of businesses moving here, tourists visiting here or convention/business people visiting here. And it certainly isn't a factor in what draws non-stop flights. The only thing that does is demand.

 

If there were to be major upgrades to hopkins, I swear Cuyahoga County better not be footing the bill. It already does with the sin tax so everyone in Lake County, Geauga County, Summit County, Medina County, Lorain County can enjoy their events downtown. The whole MSA uses Hopkins, yet Cuyahoga would get shafted with the bill considering this region can stand the thought of regional cooperation. 

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1 hour ago, Clefan98 said:


Nice non answer

All I'm saying is that yes passenger traffic is increasing, but that is probably a factor of the low cost airlines moving in as well as what seems to be a growing local economy. That should be celebrated along with the ease of access and boarding flights at the airport.

 

While we are celebrating and thinking towards what the next iteration of Hopkins will be let's look at it with some forethought so we can leverage this asset to work for our region for more than just when we are flying off to vacations.

Edited by Mov2Ohio
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1 minute ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

The whole MSA uses Hopkins, yet Cuyahoga would get shafted with the bill considering this region can stand the thought of regional cooperation. 

 

There are taxes and fees collected from airport users.  In this way, anyone traveling from CLE contributes.  

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4 hours ago, KJP said:

The Cleveland-Akron-Canton media market is/was the 15th largest in the country. Maybe it's 17th now.

 

Please show me in this list of airports where Cleveland ranks. Feel free to add in CAK to bump up the numbers, too......

 

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_capacity/passenger_allcargo_stats/passenger/media/cy18-commercial-service-enplanements.pdf

I wouldn't waste my time KJP.

 

Clearly some people don't understand the importance of using high-quality transportation as a regional economic driver.

Edited by Frmr CLEder

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10 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I wouldn't waste my time KJP.

 

Clearly some people don't understand the importance of using high-quality transportation as a regional economic driver.

 

 

The rankings don't tell the whole story either. Metros like NYC, Chicago,  Washington and Houston have multiple airports ranked ahead of us due to shear size alone. It's not really something that can be blamed on the airport itself, but nice try. 
 

I'm still waiting to learn about some specific opportunities Cleveland lost directly due to Hopkins. 

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Where does Greater Cleveland rank in terms of Fortune 500 corporate headquarters today vs 40 or 50 years ago?

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"I'm still waiting to learn about some specific opportunities Cleveland lost directly due to Hopkins."

 

Amazon HQ2 for one. You probably weren't even born when BP vacated 200 PS for Chicago.

 

Seattle vs NYC vs Virginia vs Cleveland.  Unfortunately as stated above, having inferior air service makes corporate relocation a non-starter; Cleveland isn't even a point of discussion.

Edited by Frmr CLEder

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Are we even in the same universe?

 

Perception is reality. What corporations perceive to be "inferior air service to key markets" results in a lack of interest in locating or even having satellite offices located in a city, whether you, Clefan98, are personally comfortable with your multi-stop flights, shuttered and/or dark concourses, or not.

 

Corporate relocations and expansions bring jobs, generate income tax revenue, sales tax revenue, spinoff jobs and help to drive additional economic growth; something the City desperately needs.

 

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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And it started when Diamond Shamrock left Cleveland for Dallas which had just opened a brand-new airport, DFW.

 

DFW was a big factor in the incredible growth of the Metroplex as was ATL's in the stunning growth of Atlanta since the 1970s. Cleveland went the opposite direction. 

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Hey, look, we’re not the only ones thinking about this.  This article is actually quite detailed and informative, and is good news towards future investments in airport. One note before anyone loses their mind about how high the current enplanement fees paid by the airline are - the difference between where the fees are and where they should be is almost entirely driven by the higher fees United pays towards the Concourse D debt. 

“Airline fees, debt decrease at Cleveland Hopkins as airport prepares for possible new terminal”

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020/02/airline-fees-debt-decrease-at-cleveland-hopkins-as-airport-prepares-for-possible-new-terminal.html

 

“The improving financial picture is a necessary precursor to what’s to come: The possible construction of a new terminal in several years, the cost of which will be shouldered in large part by the airlines.”

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8 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Are we even in the same universe?

 

Perception is reality. What corporations perceive to be "inferior air service to key markets" results in a lack of interest in locating or even having satellite offices located in a city, whether you, Clefan98, are personally comfortable with your multi-stop flights, shuttered and/or dark concourses, or not.

 

Corporate relocations and expansions bring jobs, generate income tax revenue, sales tax revenue, spinoff jobs and help to drive additional economic growth; something the City desperately needs.

 

 

While I don't think an airport is an end all be all of economic development and retaining talent - just look at the way CLT grew with that city, which is happening in a similar way with Nashville right now (though Nashville brings a tourist element that probably makes it an outlier)

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8 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

 

"I'm still waiting to learn about some specific opportunities Cleveland lost directly due to Hopkins."

 

Amazon HQ2 for one. You probably weren't even born when BP vacated 200 PS for Chicago.

 

Seattle vs NYC vs Virginia vs Cleveland.  Unfortunately as stated above, having inferior air service makes corporate relocation a non-starter; Cleveland isn't even a point of discussion.

 

LOL Amazon was never coming here. You're out in left field.

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18 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

LOL Amazon was never coming here. You're out in left field.

Correct.

 

I kinda think Amazon needs superior access to its key markets.

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8 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Are we even in the same universe?

 

Perception is reality. What corporations perceive to be "inferior air service to key markets" results in a lack of interest in locating or even having satellite offices located in a city, whether you, Clefan98, are personally comfortable with your multi-stop flights, shuttered and/or dark concourses, or not.

 

Corporate relocations and expansions bring jobs, generate income tax revenue, sales tax revenue, spinoff jobs and help to drive additional economic growth; something the City desperately needs.

 

 

Have you seen any of the job's reports lately? Cleveland has been holding its own (even beating some national metrics), so obviously the airport can't be too much of deterrent. Could it better? Sure. But you've shown zero proof to back up any of your claims. You're excellent at the buzz words game though!

 

I'll continue to wait on the specific opportunities we've lost - Amazon was a weak attempt.

 

32 minutes ago, KJP said:

And it started when Diamond Shamrock left Cleveland for Dallas which had just opened a brand-new airport, DFW.

 

DFW was a big factor in the incredible growth of the Metroplex as was ATL's in the stunning growth of Atlanta since the 1970s. Cleveland went the opposite direction. 

 

So Diamond left solely because of our airport, or was it one of many factors? Geographically speaking, Atlanta is the king of the south. It's the only major metro w/in hundreds of miles of itself. The Cleveland metro competes in air travel with Akron, Columbus, Detroit and Pittsburgh.


Air travel isn't as important to an area like Cleveland who is more connected by water, rail and highways than most cities/regions.

 

Geography and location plays a role:

 

Airport development is negatively correlated with ground transportation development. The negative correlation with ground transportation reflects the substitutability between ground transportation options, such as railroads and highways, and air transportation. The less developed regions of China are the west and northeast regions. Yao and Yang’s results suggest an incentive to construct airports and promote air travel in these less-developed areas because substitutable forms of travel are costly to implement there due to the presence of vast, mountainous terrain (Yao and Yang, 2008/07).

 

https://sites.duke.edu/urbaneconomics/?p=1248

 

Think.

 

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22 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Ok, and rural China has what to do with Cleveland and economic development except that you can't get to China without multiple days of travel and numerous connections?

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2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Correct.

 

I kinda think Amazon needs superior access to its key markets.

 

They needed a lot of things. Columbus made Amazon's top 20 list while Cleveland did not. Columbus' airport offers even less nonstops than we do.

 

Also, do you think airlines may have added service if Cleveland won the bid? My guess is yes.

 

Airports don't create and expand markets, they are byproduct of them.

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It's OK to criticize the city. It doesn't mean you don't still love it. Often times, it means quite the opposite.

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1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Ok, and rural China has what to do with Cleveland and economic development except that you can't get to China without multiple days of travel and numerous connections?

 

It helps to read the whole thing:

"While the results of this research are only directly applicable to the Chinese economy, its methods and general findings can be transformed and applied to other urban economies".

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Just now, Clefan98 said:

 

Airports don't create and expand markets, they are byproduct of them.

 

Not true. Commerce follows transportation infrastructure investments.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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This might be getting too far out in the weeds, but there's an argument to be made that airports could be nearly obsolete by 2040, and that's something that should be considered in funding. 

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Just now, KJP said:

It's OK to criticize the city. It doesn't mean you don't still love it. Often times, it means quite the opposite.

 

Just stating my opinion, which is allowed on this site. I'm also very realistic about Cleveland's size and outside factors we're dealing against. Sometimes the easiest thing is to blame the city without thinking. Boomers remember Cleveland for what it once was, not what it is.

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19 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Not true. Commerce follows transportation infrastructure investments.

 

Roads, bridges, rails, ports yes. I'm not convinced about airports though. No one has posted any facts on what Cleveland has lost out on due to Hopkins.

 

Columbus is booming w/out superior air travel.

Edited by Clefan98

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1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

How about thinking about Cleveland for what it could be?

 

I do this all the time. It rarely involves the airport.

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3 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

This might be getting too far out in the weeds, but there's an argument to be made that airports could be nearly obsolete by 2040, and that's something that should be considered in funding. 

 

Exactly. But let's waste billions of dollars on something when we have more important issues to fund.

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2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It should. 

 

Nah, I like to focus my time and energy on real matters and issues.

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7 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Roads, bridges, rails, ports yes. I'm not convinced about Airports though. No one has posted any facts on what Cleveland has lost out on due to Hopkins.

 

Columbus is booming w/out superior air travel.

 

Yes, some cities can make things work without all the ingredients present.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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2 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Yes, some cities can make things work without all the ingredients present.

 

So can Cleveland. We've managed to stay a world-class city while having an average airport. We're on the verge of growth for the first time in 6 decades. If the economy continues to improve/grow, airlines will notice and add more flights. There's no magic wand here, fellas.

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8 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

So can Cleveland. We've managed to stay a world-class city while having an average airport. We're on the verge of growth for the first time in 6 decades. If the economy continues to improve/grow, airlines will notice and add more flights. There's no magic wand here, fellas.

 

I think focusing on Hopkins as a major driver is outdated thinking... 

 

I think NEO's energy would be better spent ensuring us as a destination for high speed rail, be it the hyperloop or enhanced Amtrak, along with allowing Greater Cleveland to be a beta center for driverless vehicles. 

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You may be correct. It may be too late for CLE and BKL to be anything more than what they are.  That train may have already left the station.

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29 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

So can Cleveland. We've managed to stay a world-class city while having an average airport. We're on the verge of growth for the first time in 6 decades. If the economy continues to improve/grow, airlines will notice and add more flights. There's no magic wand here, fellas.

 

No one says there is a magic wand. But the corporate community demands quality air service and the city needs to do a better job of responding to it and even enticing greater access.

 

And how can any city be world-class when it's been without growth for six decades? There is only one world-class city in the Midwest and it isn't in Ohio.

 

18 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I think focusing on Hopkins as a major driver is outdated thinking... 

 

I think NEO's energy would be better spent ensuring us as a destination for high speed rail, be it the hyperloop or enhanced Amtrak, along with allowing Greater Cleveland to be a beta center for driverless vehicles. 

 

As everyone knows, I'm as big of an advocate of passenger rail development as anyone. But Columbus achieved its growth without having any passenger rail service for more than four decades. It's the largest city in the world without any form of passenger rail (high-speed rail, Amtrak, light-rail, etc). So of course there's no magic bullet. To build the kind of city I want to live in, get decent trains. Get decent transit (another area where all Ohio cities fail). Get a modern, accessible airport with lots of direct, affordable flights to key destinations. Get stable economic ingredients like a big university, a huge medical center, a center of state government, a federal government node, etc. Get revenue sharing among a geographically broad governance structure (either a physically huge municipality or a form of regional governance) to address blight with revenues from growth areas. Have a simple, streamlined governance structure that isn't staffed through patronage. Have quality and accessible educational/job training programs at all levels. These are a few of my favorite things....

Edited by KJP
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I think we all want what is best for Cleveland and the region.

The question is how to get there. 1. With 30+% poverty, economic growth and job creation that provides living wages is paramount.

2.  Does the existing population have the skills to fit today's living wage jobs. If not, what educational resources are available to assist in that process?

3.  Much of the city's housing stock has been bulldozed or needs redevelopment, which requires financial resources (banks, government, private). Investment will not occur without an anticipated ROI.

4. Unfortunately, there are and have been roadblocks.

5. KJP has summarized his vision; the initial requirement for developing a roadmap on how to get there.

6. One of the challenges has been consistent political leadership that has articulated a vision to move the region forward.

7. There are a number of components that contribute to a corporation's decision to relocate. Quality air transportation is one of them.

Edited by Frmr CLEder

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Just now, KJP said:

 

No one says there is a magic wand. But the corporate community demands quality air service and the city needs to do a better job of responding to it and even enticing greater access.

 

And how can any city be world-class when it's been without growth for six decades? There is only one world-class city in the Midwest and it isn't in Ohio.

 

 

As everyone knows, I'm as big of an advocate of passenger rail development as anyone. But Columbus achieved its growth without having any passenger rail service for more than four decades. It's the largest city in the world without any form of passenger rail (high-speed rail, Amtrak, light-rail, etc). So of course there's no magic bullet. To build the kind of city I want to live in, get decent trains. Get decent transit (another area where all Ohio cities fail). Get a modern, accessible airport with lots of direct, affordable flights to key destinations. Get stable economic ingredients like a big university, a huge medical center, a center of state government, a federal government node, etc. Get revenue sharing among a geographically broad governance structure (either a physically huge municipality or a form of regional governance) to address blight with revenues from growth areas. Have a simple, streamlined governance structure. Have quality and accessible educational/job training programs at all levels. These are a few of my favorite things....

 

Population size doesn't make world-class cities. Cleveland has world-class assets and you know it. 

 

I would argue Cleveland does have an accessible airport with a decent amount of direct affordable flights to key destinations - and more are on the way.

 

Hopkins is in need of international service and a few more direct flights to key markets, but we're not that far off from what other metros our size offers. In terms of air service, we're better off than most of Midwestern counterparts outside of Detroit and Chicago - they're 2x and 3x our size though.

 

Here's a list of nonstops out of Cleveland. Honest question: outside of international service, what key US markets are we missing?

https://www.clevelandairport.com/flight-information/non-stop-cities

I'll start with Seattle (currently seasonal) KC and San Diego. 

 

For those expecting to compete with major markets and tourist destinations, you're going to be disappointed for the rest of your life. I accept the fact that Cleveland is a Gamma+ city and our airport reflects that.

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4 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I think we all want what is best for Cleveland and the region.

The question is how to get there. 1. With 30+% poverty, economic growth and job creation that provides living wages is paramount.

2.  Does the existing population have the skills to fit today's living wage jobs. If not, what educational resources are available to assist in that process?

3.  Much of the city's housing stock has been bulldozed or needs redevelopment, which requires financial resources (banks, government, private). Investment will not occur without an anticipated ROI.

4. KJP has summarized his vision; the initial requirement for developing a roadmap on how to get there.

5. One of the challenges has been consistent political leadership that has articulated a vision to move the region forward.

5. There are a number of components that contribute to a corporation's decision to relocate. Quality air transportation is one of them.

 

Focus on #2 and #3 and the rest will work itself out. As the city demographics change (and they are) Cleveland will naturally begin electing better leadership. I know the next mayor of Cleveland is going to be light years more effective than the current. That will take care of #4 & #5a. Still not completely sold on #5b, but since the rest of your list is so solid, I'm going to cave in and agree with you.

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And the 30+% living in poverty?

 

How does that work itself out? They die in the streets?

Move to other locations? How do they get there, fly? Lol

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1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Why not aspire to become a Beta city?

 

That would be great. If we do, the airport will reflect that growth, organically.

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