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Cleveland Hopkins International Airport

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^Think of it this way:  When CO had 757s from CLE to CDG and LHR, some people still preferred to fly to EWR and connect because from EWR, you got larger planes. Now, if East Coast-Europe is on a single aisle plane, a single aisle plane from CLE is no longer a comparative disadvantage.

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10 hours ago, Pugu said:

^Think of it this way:  When CO had 757s from CLE to CDG and LHR, some people still preferred to fly to EWR and connect because from EWR, you got larger planes. Now, if East Coast-Europe is on a single aisle plane, a single aisle plane from CLE is no longer a comparative disadvantage.

 

This feels like one of those decisions made by a Harvard MBA based on some spreadsheet data which will backfire on United when customers revolt and continue to seek wide body aircraft (as I will).  

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^Well, UA has made many, many bad decisions in the last 15 years or so---and got lucky with marrying up with Continental. Lets hope that this decision, at least, will at least benefit Cleveland in the process.

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8 hours ago, Pugu said:

^Well, UA has made many, many bad decisions in the last 15 years or so---and got lucky with marrying up with Continental. Lets hope that this decision, at least, will at least benefit Cleveland in the process.

United will probably use these from their hubs to secondary cities in europe and South america  - not fom secondary american cities, unless the yields were high. They may even add frequencies with these from hubs. 

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^ CLE-FCO is 3,995 nm.

 

The 737 Max 7 max range is 3,850 nm, Max 8 and Max 9 are 3,550 nm, and Max 10 is 3300 nm.  But you must also account for season, airport elevation, and some other factors. But despite these, its still not possible given these numbers.

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^Depends on which 737 Max and also some other factors--so its not just range and distance, weather, elevation, max takeoff weight (including fuel weight) also affect possibilities. The two parallel runways at Hopkins are 770-786 ft above sea level. Use the max range numbers above.  Here are the raw distances as a plane would fly given the curvature of the earth for various cities. Don't forget a safety margin for bad weather, wind, etc.

 

CLE-LHR  3,253 nm

CLE-LIS 3,249 nm

CLE-DUB 3,012 nm

CLE-SNN 2,934 nm

CLE-CDG 3,421 nm

CLE-MAD 3,428 nm

CLE-BCN 3,627 nm

CLE-AMS 3,408 nm

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You could probably do Lisbon, Madrid, Amsterdam, or Paris with a Max 7, especially in the summer, and likely in winter (denser air) as well. Max 8 would be pushing it.

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On 12/10/2019 at 8:58 PM, Pugu said:

^Depends on which 737 Max and also some other factors--so its not just range and distance, weather, elevation, max takeoff weight (including fuel weight) also affect possibilities. The two parallel runways at Hopkins are 770-786 ft above sea level. Use the max range numbers above.  Here are the raw distances as a plane would fly given the curvature of the earth for various cities. Don't forget a safety margin for bad weather, wind, etc.

 

CLE-LHR  3,253 nm

CLE-LIS 3,249 nm

CLE-DUB 3,012 nm

CLE-SNN 2,934 nm

CLE-CDG 3,421 nm

CLE-MAD 3,428 nm

CLE-BCN 3,627 nm

CLE-AMS 3,408 nm

And very importantly winds aloft. 150kts on the nose westbound in winter will take an enourmous toll on range making fuel stops necessary.  It was 6hrs westbound to SFO today

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33 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

 It was 6hrs westbound to SFO today

 

Conversely, my wife flew in from Dallas this afternoon, and while tracking her inbound flight on Flight Aware the indicated GS was 651 mph!  ✈️

Edited by Cleburger

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As stated above and in a major departure from tradition and an Airbus coup, United has just placed orders for 50 Airbus single-aisle 321XLRs, with a range of 4700 nm. They're intended to replace their fleet of aging Boeing 757s, which are currently used on intercontinental routes from EWR and IAD. 

 

They do have the range to fly from CLE to Western Europe, provided it makes sense economically.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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3 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

As stated above and in a major departure from tradition and an Airbus coup, United has just placed orders for 50 Airbus single-aisle 321XLRs, with a range of 4700 nm. They're intended to replace their fleet of aging Boeing 757s, which are currently used on intercontinental routes from EWR and IAD. 

 

They do have the range to fly from CLE to Western Europe, provided it makes sense economically.

United bought those A321's because they want to defer deliveries of the A350's until 2027 which means they'll probably never take delivery. The A321 order is to make that reasonable to Airbus

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It's just surprising that United, being such a staunch Boeing customer, would make such a move, even if it is to postpone receipt of A350s. I guess the problem for Boeing is that they do not have a comparable aircraft.

Edited by Frmr CLEder

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55 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It's just surprising that United, being such a staunch Boeing customer, would make such a move, even if it is to postpone receipt of A350s. I guess the problem for Boeing is that they do not have a comparable aircraft.

No. The A321 order compensates Airbus for the delay and most likely eventual cancellation of the A350 order

Edited by B767PILOT

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48 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

Still, this could be very good news for CLE.  United already has and is paying for the concourse here, customs is already set up and ORD is overcrowded.  Why not use the overhead they are already paying for?  Besides, de-hubbing CLE was a mistake anyway.

 

I've always thought that CLE could have been approached by United the way CVG is approached by Delta.  Delta still uses CVG as a connector (we'll call it a hub-let) but greatly scaled back.  It can somewhat relieve pressure on their ATL operation (especially during IRROPS down there) and ensures they continue to capture a large portion of the O & D traffic from the greater Cincinnati area.  CLE will likely not be used as a large scale hub again, but United certainly has the gate capacity (without even using Concourse D) at CLE to add a modicum of flights to relieve ORD congestion.  One negative though is that most weather that would affect Chicago would also affect CLE as well.

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7 minutes ago, plinth857 said:

 

One negative though is that most weather that would affect Chicago would also affect CLE as well.

Yes, but usually not until the next day.

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When I worked as a ramp man for UAL (during the first UAL hub) I remember a number of times when we had to take flights from ORD that had to divert because of weather, but CLE was fine. We had planes parked everywhere

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2 hours ago, plinth857 said:

 

I've always thought that CLE could have been approached by United the way CVG is approached by Delta....

 

The biggest difference---DL has great, smart management. United has the opposite.

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13 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

The biggest difference---DL has great, smart management. United has the opposite.

United, at the time, was in cost cutting mode. Shrink your way to profitability. I beleive Smisek wanted Cleveland gone by any method possible. Once the hub was dismantled and whatever write-downs and accounting associated with that are completed, i dont know how easy it is to build that back-up. Certainly, the retention of a mothballed terminal building is a method to ensure no competition arrives in Cleveland in a substantial way. 

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7 hours ago, plinth857 said:

 

I've always thought that CLE could have been approached by United the way CVG is approached by Delta.  Delta still uses CVG as a connector (we'll call it a hub-let) but greatly scaled back.  It can somewhat relieve pressure on their ATL operation (especially during IRROPS down there) and ensures they continue to capture a large portion of the O & D traffic from the greater Cincinnati area.  CLE will likely not be used as a large scale hub again, but United certainly has the gate capacity (without even using Concourse D) at CLE to add a modicum of flights to relieve ORD congestion.  One negative though is that most weather that would affect Chicago would also affect CLE as well.

Well CVG still has a massive pilot base and Delta knows not to screw with the pilots. I am glad we haven't lost any additional service at CVG. If anything we have gained new service and larger AC. All while CVG continues to gain new service from other carriers. I feel for the UO members in CLE, such a big city and United cut service back so severely. Similar to how US destroyed Pittsburgh. Cincinnati escaped the ugly but it could always change.

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Swagelock, Lubrizol, OMNOVA, PolyOne, Avery Dennison, Steris, Eaton and a bunch of other NEO companies also have factories, offices and customers all over the world. I don’t know what the critical mass is for getting direct flights, but we’re not there at the moment. I’m also fairly certain that none of these companies are prepared to subsidize them either. 


And they reckon that the last thing she saw in her life was
Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican

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1 hour ago, roman totale XVII said:

Swagelock, Lubrizol, OMNOVA, PolyOne, Avery Dennison, Steris, Eaton and a bunch of other NEO companies also have factories, offices and customers all over the world. I don’t know what the critical mass is for getting direct flights, but we’re not there at the moment. I’m also fairly certain that none of these companies are prepared to subsidize them either. 

The critical mass is a substantial number of premium seats at good yields to one particular destination. As ive written before, CLE has alot of Star loyalty. UA and LH codeshare. They are both Star. Four or Five times a week to FRA or MUC should be doable. But business must commit with revenue gurantees while route develops

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1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

So CLE is confined to multiple LCCs, a legacy airline that blocks an entire concourse and lots of hub connections. That's very sad.

Theres enough room for another legacy but UA will defend its turf. 

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5 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

The critical mass is a substantial number of premium seats at good yields to one particular destination. As ive written before, CLE has alot of Star loyalty. UA and LH codeshare. They are both Star. Four or Five times a week to FRA or MUC should be doable. But business must commit with revenue gurantees while route develops

Premium meaning Business Class? I know for a fact that most, if not all, of those companies I’ve mentioned above don’t allow business class on European flights for anyone other than the very top management. 

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And they reckon that the last thing she saw in her life was
Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican

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10 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

Premium meaning Business Class? I know for a fact that most, if not all, of those companies I’ve mentioned above don’t allow business class on European flights for anyone other than the very top management. 

Then thats part of the problem. Then they must be satisfied with lower fares that include connections. If european service matters so little to those global companies, you will not see it happen

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What is the city getting in return from UAL? Connections into two of the most delay-prone airports in the country; EWR and ORD? What should be an hour and a half flight often turns into three or four hours. EWR is also one of the lowest ranked large airports.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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22 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

What is the city getting in return from UAL? Connections into two of the most delay-prone airports in the country; EWR and ORD? What should be an hour and a half flight often turns into three or four hours. EWR is also one of the lowest ranked large airports.

But see my reply above. Apparently the business community in CLE is fine with such service.  

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Would love a Priority Pass lounge at CLE.  I have no idea how that company makes money with all the card-holders out there who are opted into it these days, but I guess that's for them to figure out!  

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13 minutes ago, ML11 said:

Would love a Priority Pass lounge at CLE.  I have no idea how that company makes money with all the card-holders out there who are opted into it these days, but I guess that's for them to figure out!  

 

A casual observation when hanging out in PP lounges--they do well with guest passes.   Lots of business travelers bringing their co-workers in for an additional charge.  

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