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Cleveland Hopkins International Airport

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3 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

I fully agree with burying 480 and extending the runways. I have thought about this a lot - I always thought it was strange that they located the rental car facility where it is, because the runways should go there. I also fully agree with the need for an international terminal, or at least a proper international area. 

 

I think all of this can be done at the current location. Once the United lease on D is up there’s a lot of flexibility for more substantial rebuilds of the concourses. I prefer the current location because it already has the Red Line, the parking garage, and the proximity to rail lines for a future station. This would be VERY expensive to recreate at the IX Center location. 

 

I also agree with getting an airport hotel w direct terminal access. 

 

It would be great to see Alaska or Delta fly direct to Seattle. San Juan, Frankfort, and London would all be great. I don’t know how your other requests would come anywhere close to filling airplanes, but I’m all for wishful thinking. 

 

The IX center and all of its events SHOULD move downtown, period.What ever space is not at the IX center, should be put into expanding the Downtown Convention.  The long term benefit, will be more hotel bookings, restaurant reservations, Train fares, Taxi/Share car service booking. and other $$ spent via tourist.  As stated here in the past, many people who come to the IX center for events, do not spend money in the immediate area.  Businesses or travelers fly in and fly out without spending any money in the region.

 

I don't believe the Cleveland Rapid will be affected, if the terminal is moved closer to Berea, since it's underground.  Imagine if the new terminal and concourse(s) were an extended South, that would not affect the station.  A more visible access point could be created.  I'm sure the could be engineered.

 

Delta or Alaska wouldn't fly from Cleveland Internationally with DTW right to the north WITHOUT subsidies. International carries, would be our best bet and United considering the amount of Elite members in Cleveland/NE Ohio.  There are plenty of people flying to Europe/Carribean via EWR and United added a RT from IAD to Akron, for international connections with justifies that CLE is profitable market AND a slap at American for eating into the CLE - LGA/DCA/JFK direct flights with line up with international flight banks.  American also increased plane size and frequencies to PHL and CLT.  PHL is American's main gateway to Europe and M. East.  United told us CLE was not profitable but we now know that was a lie, other carriers have become profitable and fares has fallen.

 

Having more frequency on Jetblue San Juan or United to San Juan and Panama City (COPA) would offer a place to connect to other Central American or Island locations, without having to stop in Miami.  Like a flight from CLE to HNL a flight on United or COPA to Panama City would be great for long time Continental/United elite members in NE Ohio.

 

ETA:  a flight to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem would also be great considering our large Jewish population.

Edited by MyTwoSense
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36 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

 

The IX center and all of its events SHOULD move downtown, period.What ever space is not at the IX center, should be put into expanding the Downtown Convention.  The long term benefit, will be more hotel bookings, restaurant reservations, Train fares, Taxi/Share car service booking. and other $$ spent via tourist.  As stated here in the past, many people who come to the IX center for events, do not spend money in the immediate area.  Businesses or travelers fly in and fly out without spending any money in the region.

 

I don't believe the Cleveland Rapid will be affected, if the terminal is moved closer to Berea, since it's underground.  Imagine if the new terminal and concourse(s) were an extended South, that would not affect the station.  A more visible access point could be created.  I'm sure the could be engineered.

 

Delta or Alaska wouldn't fly from Cleveland Internationally with DTW right to the north WITHOUT subsidies. International carries, would be our best bet and United considering the amount of Elite members in Cleveland/NE Ohio.  There are plenty of people flying to Europe/Carribean via EWR and United added a RT from IAD to Akron, for international connections with justifies that CLE is profitable market AND a slap at American for eating into the CLE - LGA/DCA/JFK direct flights with line up with international flight banks.  American also increased plane size and frequencies to PHL and CLT.  PHL is American's main gateway to Europe and M. East.  United told us CLE was not profitable but we now know that was a lie, other carriers have become profitable and fares has fallen.

 

Having more frequency on Jetblue San Juan or United to San Juan and Panama City (COPA) would offer a place to connect to other Central American or Island locations, without having to stop in Miami.  Like a flight from CLE to HNL a flight on United or COPA to Panama City would be great for long time Continental/United elite members in NE Ohio.

 

ETA:  a flight to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem would also be great considering our large Jewish population.

 

Ah, yes - I hadn’t thought about Panama City for LA connections. That’s a great point. 

 

I’d fully support a subsidy for London and/or Frankfurt.

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50 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

 

The flights have also been pretty full out of Columbus as far as I know. There’s no reason they wouldn’t see the same level of demand in Cleveland though. 

True that, but remember its the yields that matter.  A full plane doesnt mean you are making money. 

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10 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

Ah, yes - I hadn’t thought about Panama City for LA connections. That’s a great point. 

 

I’d fully support a subsidy for London and/or Frankfurt.

Frankfurt is the best bet. Its a Star Alliance hub and CLE is still full of Star frequent fliers courtesy of United. In fact Continental originally wanted the first trans atlantic route from CLE to be to Frankfurt but the White Administration insisted on London which of course benefits One World Alliance. But yea, pony up the cash and you can have it all till the money runs out or you actually find that the demand is actually there

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55 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

 

The IX center and all of its events SHOULD move downtown, period.What ever space is not at the IX center, should be put into expanding the Downtown Convention.  The long term benefit, will be more hotel bookings, restaurant reservations, Train fares, Taxi/Share car service booking. and other $$ spent via tourist.  As stated here in the past, many people who come to the IX center for events, do not spend money in the immediate area.  Businesses or travelers fly in and fly out without spending any money in the region.

 

I don't believe the Cleveland Rapid will be affected, if the terminal is moved closer to Berea, since it's underground.  Imagine if the new terminal and concourse(s) were an extended South, that would not affect the station.  A more visible access point could be created.  I'm sure the could be engineered.

 

Delta or Alaska wouldn't fly from Cleveland Internationally with DTW right to the north WITHOUT subsidies. International carries, would be our best bet and United considering the amount of Elite members in Cleveland/NE Ohio.  There are plenty of people flying to Europe/Carribean via EWR and United added a RT from IAD to Akron, for international connections with justifies that CLE is profitable market AND a slap at American for eating into the CLE - LGA/DCA/JFK direct flights with line up with international flight banks.  American also increased plane size and frequencies to PHL and CLT.  PHL is American's main gateway to Europe and M. East.  United told us CLE was not profitable but we now know that was a lie, other carriers have become profitable and fares has fallen.

 

Having more frequency on Jetblue San Juan or United to San Juan and Panama City (COPA) would offer a place to connect to other Central American or Island locations, without having to stop in Miami.  Like a flight from CLE to HNL a flight on United or COPA to Panama City would be great for long time Continental/United elite members in NE Ohio.

 

ETA:  a flight to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem would also be great considering our large Jewish population.

But remember, its not just demand from CLE.  Airline plannners also look at the demand on the otherside too.  What is the demand FROM Frankfurt, London, etc to CLE?

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57 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

 

The IX center and all of its events SHOULD move downtown, period.What ever space is not at the IX center, should be put into expanding the Downtown Convention.  The long term benefit, will be more hotel bookings, restaurant reservations, Train fares, Taxi/Share car service booking. and other $$ spent via tourist.  As stated here in the past, many people who come to the IX center for events, do not spend money in the immediate area.  Businesses or travelers fly in and fly out without spending any money in the region.

 

I don't believe the Cleveland Rapid will be affected, if the terminal is moved closer to Berea, since it's underground.  Imagine if the new terminal and concourse(s) were an extended South, that would not affect the station.  A more visible access point could be created.  I'm sure the could be engineered.

 

Delta or Alaska wouldn't fly from Cleveland Internationally with DTW right to the north WITHOUT subsidies. International carries, would be our best bet and United considering the amount of Elite members in Cleveland/NE Ohio.  There are plenty of people flying to Europe/Carribean via EWR and United added a RT from IAD to Akron, for international connections with justifies that CLE is profitable market AND a slap at American for eating into the CLE - LGA/DCA/JFK direct flights with line up with international flight banks.  American also increased plane size and frequencies to PHL and CLT.  PHL is American's main gateway to Europe and M. East.  United told us CLE was not profitable but we now know that was a lie, other carriers have become profitable and fares has fallen.

 

Having more frequency on Jetblue San Juan or United to San Juan and Panama City (COPA) would offer a place to connect to other Central American or Island locations, without having to stop in Miami.  Like a flight from CLE to HNL a flight on United or COPA to Panama City would be great for long time Continental/United elite members in NE Ohio.

 

ETA:  a flight to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem would also be great considering our large Jewish population.

You are 100% correct.  The IX events should be downtown

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1 minute ago, B767PILOT said:

But remember, its not just demand from CLE.  Airline plannners also look at the demand on the otherside too.  What is the demand FROM Frankfurt, London, etc to CLE?

 

That is why i state O/D demand in cities that Continental was looking at prior to the merger and flights United has told us people fly to CLE internationally. 

 

I've also said, with the issues (mostly delays and BAD CUSTOMER SERVICE) at BOTH ORD and EWR, United could funnel more domestic travel via CLE.

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Just now, MyTwoSense said:

 

That is why i state O/D demand in cities that Continental was looking at prior to the merger and flights United has told us people fly to CLE internationally. 

 

I've also said, with the issues (mostly delays and BAD CUSTOMER SERVICE) at BOTH ORD and EWR, United could funnel more domestic travel via CLE.

Yes they could-easily. But after the merger they now had international gateways at ORD, EWR and IAD -and all of those with a better economy of scale.  United had no economic incentive to change that. Remember in 2007 when Continental planned to grow CLE by 30% only to have the crushing weight of 2008 snuff that out

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1 minute ago, B767PILOT said:

Yes they could-easily. But after the merger they now had international gateways at ORD, EWR and IAD -and all of those with a better economy of scale.  United had no economic incentive to change that. Remember in 2007 when Continental planned to grow CLE by 30% only to have the crushing weight of 2008 snuff that out

100% agree.  We'll be stuck with LCCs and select increase in domestic carriers to domestic locations for the near future.  But a new terminal is a step in the right location.  Lets hope the City does it's homework and can negotiate directly with international carriers for international destinations.

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On 10/26/2019 at 6:48 PM, cbussoccer said:

 

The flights have also been pretty full out of Columbus as far as I know. There’s no reason they wouldn’t see the same level of demand in Cleveland though. 

 

"Full" and "profitable" are very different things.

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Can you do TSA Pre application interviews at Hopkins? I thought I saw signs for it, but it isn’t showing up on the TSA Pre application web page. 

 

I’ve been trying to get my wife to apply for years and she has a return flight that gets in Monday at 3 - I figured that would be a perfect time for her to go. I hope my plan doesn’t fall through. 

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27 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Can you do TSA Pre application interviews at Hopkins? I thought I saw signs for it, but it isn’t showing up on the TSA Pre application web page. 

 

I’ve been trying to get my wife to apply for years and she has a return flight that gets in Monday at 3 - I figured that would be a perfect time for her to go. I hope my plan doesn’t fall through. 

I have not heard of that. When I got mine it was in a building at rock side/77.

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^ Yeah it’s at Middleburg Heights. If she’s flying international, she’ll be able to do it at immigration at the kiosk when she arrives. Alternatively, any international airport should be able to do it even if you’re flying domestic. 

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And they reckon that the last thing she saw in her life was
Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican

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11 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

^ Yeah it’s at Middleburg Heights. If she’s flying international, she’ll be able to do it at immigration at the kiosk when she arrives. Alternatively, any international airport should be able to do it even if you’re flying domestic. 

Yeah, it dawned on me this evening that I should have her do it at Boston Logan before she leaves there. Thanks!

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TSA Pre-Check signup WAS in lower level of CLE baggage in past - former Sheraton check-in area -  as I signed up there 2015. For folks who travel often (me: 60-70 flts/yr) it's a necessity and huge hassle saver at any airport. Have signed daughter and wife up, too, for their security screening ease several times a year.

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On 10/30/2019 at 7:38 AM, cbussoccer said:

 

Correct. I never said otherwise. 

 

So let me ask for clarity/further explanation.  What did you mean by?

Quote

 

The flights have also been pretty full out of Columbus as far as I know.

 

I took that as to mean, full flight means there are very few seats available and that the service is good.  And some people may think a full flight means it's profitable, not realizing there is a varying matrix of pricing.

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10 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

 

So let me ask for clarity/further explanation.  What did you mean by?

 

I took that as to mean, full flight means there are very few seats available and that the service is good.  And some people may think a full flight means it's profitable, not realizing there is a varying matrix of pricing.

 

If you read the comment I quoted it said “They (Columbus and Pittsburgh) see and get subsidies” in response to the question of what Alaska Airlines sees in Columbus and Pittsburgh that they don’t see in Cleveland. I simply added to the comment about subsidies by saying that the flights between Seattle and Columbus have been mostly full since its inception and that there’s no reason the same demand wouldn’t exist in Cleveland. 

 

Stop trying to create an unnecessary argument. If you would have simply read the preceding comments that related to mine it would have been pretty clear what I was saying. 

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23 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

 

If you read the comment I quoted it said “They (Columbus and Pittsburgh) see and get subsidies” in response to the question of what Alaska Airlines sees in Columbus and Pittsburgh that they don’t see in Cleveland. I simply added to the comment about subsidies by saying that the flights between Seattle and Columbus have been mostly full since its inception and that there’s no reason the same demand wouldn’t exist in Cleveland. 

 

Stop trying to create an unnecessary argument. If you would have simply read the preceding comments that related to mine it would have been pretty clear what I was saying. 

Me asking you to further explain is not an attempt at creating an argument it asking for clarity to better understand your post, PERIOD.

 

I do not want to make assumption or speculate, hence asking questions.

Edited by MyTwoSense

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10 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

Me asking you to further explain is not an attempt at creating an argument it asking for clarity to better understand your post, PERIOD.

 

I do not want to make assumption or speculate, hence asking questions.

 

If further explanation was needed then you did not read the context. It was not difficult to understand what I was saying if you read the context. 

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How much subsidy does AS get for their CMH service? And what is the source of funding--city of columbus, columbus business community, state, etc?

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5 hours ago, Pugu said:

How much subsidy does AS get for their CMH service? And what is the source of funding--city of columbus, columbus business community, state, etc?

$500,000 or so over two years...maybe more.  Its alot of money for a domestic city pair

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On 10/26/2019 at 7:52 PM, MyTwoSense said:

 

That is why i state O/D demand in cities that Continental was looking at prior to the merger and flights United has told us people fly to CLE internationally. 

 

I've also said, with the issues (mostly delays and BAD CUSTOMER SERVICE) at BOTH ORD and EWR, United could funnel more domestic travel via CLE.

As I'm sure we would all agree, EWR and ORD are absolute nightmares; to get to/from via land and flight delays/security.  A couple of points:

 

1.  Eliminate the IX Center. I never understood its purpose at the airport anyway

2.  Why not utilize Concourse D for international arrivals/departures and C&I. With its restricted access and limited number of flights, the number of gates could be reduced to accommodate larger aircraft. It's relatively new and much better than the Concourse A.

3.  What's going on with the old auto assembly plant on Brookpark Road?  Is it still in use?  That area could be repurposed for parking/auto rental

4.  CLE added a 2nd parallel runway not too long ago.  Is a third needed to accommodate more traffic or do existing runways need additional length?

5.  I'm STILL angry with United for burning Cleveland TWICE!  I won't fly them. Period!  Loved Continental though. I'd walk around the globe in the opposite direction to get to Chicago vs fly there on United.

6.  With the legacy carriers having their established hubs in the four corners and in-between, are there international opportunities with non-US and/or low-fare international carriers?

 

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22 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

As I'm sure we would all agree, EWR and ORD are absolute nightmares; to get to/from via land and flight delays/security.  A couple of points:

 

1.  Eliminate the IX Center. I never understood its purpose at the airport anyway

2.  Why not utilize Concourse D for international arrivals/departures and C&I. With its restricted access and limited number of flights, the number of gates could be reduced to accommodate larger aircraft. It's relatively new and much better than the Concourse A.

3.  What's going on with the old auto assembly plant on Brookpark Road?  Is it still in use?  That area could be repurposed for parking/auto rental

4.  CLE added a 2nd parallel runway not too long ago.  Is a third needed to accommodate more traffic or do existing runways need additional length?

5.  I'm STILL angry with United for burning Cleveland TWICE!  I won't fly them. Period!  Loved Continental though. I'd walk around the globe in the opposite direction to get to Chicago vs fly there on United.

6.  With the legacy carriers having their established hubs in the four corners and in-between, are there international opportunities with non-US and/or low-fare international carriers?

 

 

1. It was originally a factory to build bombers, thus it needed to be at an airport

3. It is an engine plant, and Ford just announced additional investment https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/oh-lorain/uaw-ford-to-invest-more-than-1-billion-into-avon-lake-cleveland-plants , although there is some vacant land there. The plant isn't as large as it once was.

4. More important would be additional distance between the active runways, which isn't possible at the land-locked CLE

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Bottom line:

 

CLE cannot grow much in it's current location; it's landlocked. That's one of the reasons the region proposed the Lake Erie jet port four decades ago.  It can however utilize its existing space more efficiently; perhaps by building up, or down for parking and any other operational uses that don't require above-ground access.

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1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

As I'm sure we would all agree, EWR and ORD are absolute nightmares; to get to/from via land and flight delays/security.  A couple of points:

 

1.  Eliminate the IX Center. I never understood its purpose at the airport anyway

2.  Why not utilize Concourse D for international arrivals/departures and C&I. With its restricted access and limited number of flights, the number of gates could be reduced to accommodate larger aircraft. It's relatively new and much better than the Concourse A.

3.  What's going on with the old auto assembly plant on Brookpark Road?  Is it still in use?  That area could be repurposed for parking/auto rental

4.  CLE added a 2nd parallel runway not too long ago.  Is a third needed to accommodate more traffic or do existing runways need additional length?

5.  I'm STILL angry with United for burning Cleveland TWICE!  I won't fly them. Period!  Loved Continental though. I'd walk around the globe in the opposite direction to get to Chicago vs fly there on United.

6.  With the legacy carriers having their established hubs in the four corners and in-between, are there international opportunities with non-US and/or low-fare international carriers?

 

 

2. Concourse D was built for regional jets. It cannot handle the larger airplanes used for international routes.

 

That said, it would be a good place to move other gates as part of a rebuilding process, thus enabling them to rebuild each concourse one at a time. 

 

Does anyone one know when United’s lease on Concourse D is up? That will be a bad day for airport revenue but a really good day for future airport rebuilding flexibility. 

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CLE sort of occupies a middle ground - in terms of age, acreage, and distance to the city center it is more in the class of LGA, DCA and MDW. It's far more workable as an airport than those.  But it is not going to be able to compete with airports planned far from the city on vast amounts of land like DTW or PIT (I'm not even considering the mega-airports)

 

It also doesn't help that it is run by a city that is "management-challenged" rather than a larger port authority.

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15 minutes ago, bjk said:

CLE sort of occupies a middle ground - in terms of age, acreage, and distance to the city center it is more in the class of LGA, DCA and MDW. It's far more workable as an airport than those.  But it is not going to be able to compete with airports planned far from the city on vast amounts of land like DTW or PIT (I'm not even considering the mega-airports)

 

It also doesn't help that it is run by a city that is "management-challenged" rather than a larger port authority.

 

If BOS, HNL, SAN, LAS, BNA, SLC, SJC and CLT, airports closer to the city center/CBD than Hopkins, can improve their terminals/airfields, attract and retain international carriers and domestic O&D Cleveland can.  I'm sure there are other airports that are closer, those are just a few off the top of my head.

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The IX center would need to go to make the airport a large player.  It would need the room for a new terminal AND to have parallel runways to allow simultaneous landings/takeoffs.  If I recall correctly, the work done on the runway gave it length to accommodate larger planes, but it is too close for simultaneous operations.

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4 hours ago, B767PILOT said:

$500,000 or so over two years...maybe more.  Its alot of money for a domestic city pair

 

Wow, that is a lot for a domestic route. Where's the $500k coming from?

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15 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

The IX center would need to go to make the airport a large player.  It would need the room for a new terminal AND to have parallel runways to allow simultaneous landings/takeoffs.  If I recall correctly, the work done on the runway gave it length to accommodate larger planes, but it is too close for simultaneous operations.

It is capable of simultaneous ops though not parallel landing or take-off. But def simultaneous take-off and landing

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42 minutes ago, Pugu said:

In good weather, CLE can handle simultaneous operations.

Agreed.  I was going to say we already do this and B757/A321; B767/A330; B747and the smaller 777 (from CO) planes can land and take off at CLE.  

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41 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

Waived landing fees and marketing

In some cases, the "chamber of commerce" has appropriated funds and or leased planes for use on said routes.

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28 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

Agreed.  I was going to say we already do this and B757/A321; B767/A330; B747and the smaller 777 (from CO) planes can land and take off at CLE.  

Simultaneous for take off and landing. However simultaeous take off for 6L/R-24L/R and same for simultaneous landing are somewhat staggered.  There is a slight delay between the two.  I beleive the minimum separation between parallel runways for unrestricted simultaneous ops is 2,500 feet and CLE isnt that far apart though much greater than they were before the construction of the new runway. 

Edited by B767PILOT
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3 hours ago, B767PILOT said:

Simultaneous for take off and landing. However simultaeous take off for 6L/R-24L/R and same for simultaneous landing are somewhat staggered.  There is a slight delay between the two.  I beleive the minimum separation between parallel runways for unrestricted simultaneous ops is 2,500 feet and CLE isnt that far apart though much greater than they were before the construction of the new runway. 

 

Without a hub, we don't have the traffic to worry about this anyway.   It's not like we're ever lined up #32 for departure at CLE.   

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16 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

Without a hub, we don't have the traffic to worry about this anyway.   It's not like we're ever lined up #32 for departure at CLE.   

Lol...ive been a lot higher than #32 at more than a few airports. Sometimes behind flights that haden't even landed yet

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Just now, B767PILOT said:

Lol...ive been a lot higher than #32 at more than a few airports. Sometimes behind flights that haden't even landed yet

 

Exactly.  This is a non issue at CLE in it's current state.   And I don't see a hub ever returning, in the present day airline model.     

The airport needs to be rebuilt as a mid-market O/D operation.   Tear down A/B and start there with a new terminal/gates, then interface with C/D.   Move the rental car operation back to the short term garage, and build a new long term garage/hotel complex on the orange lot.   All problems solved!  

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2 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Exactly.  This is a non issue at CLE in it's current state.   And I don't see a hub ever returning, in the present day airline model.     

The airport needs to be rebuilt as a mid-market O/D operation.   Tear down A/B and start there with a new terminal/gates, then interface with C/D.   Move the rental car operation back to the short term garage, and build a new long term garage/hotel complex on the orange lot.   All problems solved!  


Granted I know very little about airlines. But I still think CLE could fill a niche for a growing mid-market airline like Frontier... or even Air Canada. Additionally, fostering relationships with European airlines is clearly attainable as well... and in many ways IcelandAir leaving was due to forces outside of our control more than lack of traffic.

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