Cleveland Hopkins International Airport

[Pugu]

^Yes, and there are many example of that. Jat used to fly westbound:  BEG-DTW-CLE and eastbound: CLE-BEG.

[Pugu]

^JAT also flew this in the mid-80s at 1x weekly:

 

JU566 Belgrade – Ljubljana – Cleveland – Chicago
JU569 Chicago – Cleveland – Ljubljana – Belgrade

 

Its not different cities per direction, but it shows a stop en route. Not sure of what the rules were back then (I think they were the same as they are now), but if this were operated today, all Chicago-bound passengers would have to deplane in Cleveland and clear immigration/customs, before re-boarding and continuing on to Chicago. (They could not carry new passengers picked up in CLE and brought to Chicago.)

[MyTwoSense]

Agreed. On top of that, people should take this into consideration

 

Quote

Cleveland’s poor ranking comes in contrast to recent improving marks from the Airports Council International, an industry trade group. Hopkins was named the “most improved” airport in North America in 2017, and results continued to increase in 2018.

 

ACI surveys are conducted at the airport and ask travelers about security, “finding your way,” check-in, airport facilities, airport environment and overall satisfaction.

J.D. Power surveys are conducted online, and include responses from 32,276 U.S. or Canadian residents who traveled through at least one U.S. or Canadian airport during the past three months. The study was conducted from October 2018 through September 2019

It contradicts the governing agency and was conducted online.

 

Does the airport need massive change? ,Yes.  Should this "ranking" be taken seriously?  HELL NO

 

SW (the city and county) could work with carriers for additional flights.  This isn't uncommon for a company to contact carriers for more flights w/gaurantees.  We know United handicapped the airport on purpose.  I believe we have the NEED for more O&D flights or the LCCs wouldn't be here.  Alaska should be in CLE.  American and Delta could ad more direct flights to targeted business destinations.  United could add more domestic flights and flights to European hubs, instead of cramming more flights into EWR, ORD and IAD.

 

Do we need to realign the concourses and runways, Yes.  Do we need to add a independent international (five/six gates) terminal, Yes.  Do we need to move the rental car facility?  Yes.  

 

Having said all that, that JD Power report is 

[KJP]

This city can't run an airport anymore than it can a fresh food market.

[MyTwoSense]

26 minutes ago, KJP said:

This city can't run an airport anymore than it can a fresh food market.

 

[Cleburger]

4 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

Agreed. On top of that, people should take this into consideration

 

It contradicts the governing agency and was conducted online.

 

Does the airport need massive change? ,Yes.  Should this "ranking" be taken seriously?  HELL NO

 

SW (the city and county) could work with carriers for additional flights.  This isn't uncommon for a company to contact carriers for more flights w/gaurantees.  We know United handicapped the airport on purpose.  I believe we have the NEED for more O&D flights or the LCCs wouldn't be here.  Alaska should be in CLE.  American and Delta could ad more direct flights to targeted business destinations.  United could add more domestic flights and flights to European hubs, instead of cramming more flights into EWR, ORD and IAD.

 

Do we need to realign the concourses and runways, Yes.  Do we need to add a independent international (five/six gates) terminal, Yes.  Do we need to move the rental car facility?  Yes.  

 

Having said all that, that JD Power report is 

 

Don't forget restrooms.  We need bigger and roomier restrooms....

[Pugu]

^I don't have an issue with the alignment of the runways or the location of the rental car facility. Before the consolidation, we had lots of little buses running around--avis, budget, hertz, etc....  I'm okay with the consolidation and would rather the space be used for either offices, hotels, more terminal, or more airfield, rather than surface parking for rental cars.  We need modern terminals, better immigration processing (and process--no post CBP TSA), and BETTER AIR SERVICE. CLE-SFO is horribly under capacity, e.g., as are other key business cities, some of which have no service at all, and as we all know, CLE-Europe to a useful hub is non-existent.

[MyTwoSense]

7 hours ago, Pugu said:

^I don't have an issue with the alignment of the runways or the location of the rental car facility. Before the consolidation, we had lots of little buses running around--avis, budget, hertz, etc....  I'm okay with the consolidation and would rather the space be used for either offices, hotels, more terminal, or more airfield, rather than surface parking for rental cars.  We need modern terminals, better immigration processing (and process--no post CBP TSA), and BETTER AIR SERVICE. CLE-SFO is horribly under capacity, e.g., as are other key business cities, some of which have no service at all, and as we all know, CLE-Europe to a useful hub is non-existent.

Yes consolidating the car rental facility to brookpark would be better with an inter modal connection would a necessity.

[mrclifton88]

How about paving the roads leading into the rental car facility?  That’s a start. It’s ridiculously awful. 

[Cleburger]

Rental cars should have been on the bottom 2 floors of the short term parking garage, with a new long-term garage behind it.  Instead, we have the awful off-site facility and more surface lots around the airport (what our leadership knows best).  

[Pugu]

JetBlue increasing CLE-BOS service to 5x daily starting in May.

[WindyBuckeye]

4 minutes ago, Pugu said:

JetBlue increasing CLE-BOS service to 5x daily starting in May.

I need more JetBlue in my life. My favorite airline.

[Pugu]

Yeah. I wish they had more routes in CLE than just BOS and FLL.  

[Dougal]

In another part of the galaxy Pugu said:

 

"The city will take a year (or maybe two) to solicit a master contractor to build the recommendation"   No. The city HAS to do a plan. So it doesn't mean it wants to or is doing so in earnest because it wants to make things better. Its required to do a plan. And it is not required to implement any of it. Look at the giant new terminal and hotel built after the last master plan. I know there were changes like the economy and UA dehubbing, but there's no indication the airport was really going to do anything anyway. Even things they didn't even need a master plan to show---like cramped terminal conditions, poor FIS location, etc.--they didn't bother improving.

 

My reply:

You are correct that the city has to do a plan and that the city doesn't then have to do anything with it. However, if the city didn't WANT to do something, they could have simply updated the existing plan to show current and projected traffic and Concourse D mothballed. They wouldn't have needed a consultant for that. I think the airport has pretty clearly shown they want to do something major.  If all they expected to do was a buff up of existing facilities, they (City Council approved the RFQ) wouldn't have allowed the bidders 10-11 months to prepae their submissions.

[Pugu]

^I hope the city is earnest with undertaking the master plan and really want to make improvements and really does invest in those improvements. 

 

Regarding this statement, "If all they expected to do was a buff up of existing facilities, they (City Council approved the RFQ) wouldn't have allowed the bidders 10-11 months to prepare their submissions."  Sure they would--esp. if necessary to "prove" their commitment to the process. Happens all the time.

 

However, the city didn't give vendors 10-11 months to prepare a bid that takes a month to prepare.  RFQ was released on  Jan 18, 2019 and they were due on March 1, 2019. Were there no qualified bidders? Its been 7 months. Sounds like a severe lack of urgency or care. Either that or incompetence to properly assess the bids and/or negotiate a contract. I don't think the airport director gives a #$#&* anymore and doesn't care about legacy. We see that in airport improvements and we see that in cities served by the airlines. And inaction Jackson himself doesn't give a crap enough to replace him.

 

 

 

[Dougal]

3 hours ago, Pugu said:

 I don't think the airport director gives a #$#&* anymore and doesn't care about legacy. We see that in airport improvements and we see that in cities served by the airlines. And inaction Jackson himself doesn't give a crap enough to replace him.

 

Ouch.  Maybe my optimism is misplaced.  I hope you're wrong about Kennedy. 

 

The Mayor should probably resign "to spend more time with his family" as they say. In this case it would be true.  He's not young any more; and his wife has to need more attention than the city is getting lately.

[Foraker]

In my ideal plan for the airport, they would get rid of all the parking adjacent the airport and build a couple of massive parking garages and hotels next to the Brookpark rapid station (or to a  new rapid station south of the airport) and make the rapid cheap or fee from there into the terminal.  Move the "curbside" drop-off, taxi services, shuttles, etc. to that station and make the airport rapid station into a more welcoming gateway for all passengers and employees coming into the airport.

 

 

That would immediately free up land around the terminal.  Extend the building over the current roadway and put the ticket counters there,  and reconfigure the security checkpoints to something more user-friendly in place of the current ticket counter lineup.

 

Going further, how about a regional passenger train station connection near the airport as well, drawing potential customers to the airport from Pittsburgh and Columbus -- and a quality rail network to every major urban center within 200 miles.

 

Yeah, yeah, I know.

 

 

[KJP]

On 10/1/2019 at 1:48 PM, Foraker said:

Going further, how about a regional passenger train station connection near the airport as well, drawing potential customers to the airport from Pittsburgh and Columbus -- and a quality rail network to every major urban center within 200 miles.

 

Yeah, yeah, I know.

 

 

 

A regional passenger rail station was included in one of the conceptual designs by the consultant.

[Pugu]

Icelandair just dropped SFO and Kansas City. There was talk earlier that they wanted to swap KC (on a 757) and CLE (on a Max8). Might this be the beginning of the swap assuming more delays in the Max8? Or does it just reflect other issues going on at Icelandair? Not sure.

[Clefan98]

Spirit Airlines will fly new Cleveland-to-Cancun route, starting in February

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio — Spirit Airlines is adding its first international destination from Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, flying between Cleveland and Cancun, Mexico, starting in February.

The route will operate year-round four days per week — Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday, starting Feb. 14.

Spirit will have some competition on the route. Frontier Airlines, another low-cost carrier, flies between Cleveland and Cancun, three times per week.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/10/spirit-airlines-will-fly-new-cleveland-to-cancun-route-starting-in-february.html

[BelievelandD1]

^i understand the numbers, i just dont understand the human patterns. We have three airlines now that go to Cancun?  Are there really no other destinations that have demand for a flight?  People from our region really go to Cancun enough to support three airlines with non-stops, but no other places like Nassau, San Juan, Jamaica, i could go on.  Its just weird...i have like no desire to go to Cancun and i love to travel and i love warm weather.

[MyTwoSense]

8 hours ago, BelievelandD1 said:

^i understand the numbers, i just dont understand the human patterns. We have three airlines now that go to Cancun?  Are there really no other destinations that have demand for a flight?  People from our region really go to Cancun enough to support three airlines with non-stops, but no other places like Nassau, San Juan, Jamaica, i could go on.  Its just weird...i have like no desire to go to Cancun and i love to travel and i love warm weather.

Cancun seems to be very popular O&D.  I'm surprised San Juan, Panama City, St Thomas, the Bahamas and Mexico City aren't more popular.

[bumsquare]

I think it has to do with the large resorts. I went to Tulum on the direct Frontier flight and almost everyone on the plane was going to the same resort in Cancun. All of the announcements, etc. were geared towards those passengers.

[Cleburger]

9 hours ago, bumsquare said:

I think it has to do with the large resorts. I went to Tulum on the direct Frontier flight and almost everyone on the plane was going to the same resort in Cancun. All of the announcements, etc. were geared towards those passengers.

 

Yes lots of resorts competing with each other (i.e. "cheap") 

[jeremyck01]

21 hours ago, bumsquare said:

I think it has to do with the large resorts. I went to Tulum on the direct Frontier flight and almost everyone on the plane was going to the same resort in Cancun. All of the announcements, etc. were geared towards those passengers.

 

Tulum is awesome.  The cool spots are by the beach, but even the dusty old town has some gems such as the best mojito spot I've ever been to.  To keep this on topic: planes!

[marty15]

I vote brand new terminal. It’s encouraging that the airlines are paying for it. I can only assume what route they’ll wanna take. It’s time.

 

https://trib.al/8MzgTGp

 

 

“The plan will likely include several possibilities for remaking the aging airport, both short- and long-term, modest to major. A new terminal, at a cost of more than $1 billion, is one probable option.”

 

“The company will be paid $4.5 million for the plan, funded by the airlines that do business in Cleveland.”

 

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by marty15

[WindyBuckeye]

Now that I can support 

[MyTwoSense]

6 hours ago, marty15 said:

I vote brand new terminal. It’s encouraging that the airlines are paying for it. I can only assume what route they’ll wanna take. It’s time.

 

https://trib.al/8MzgTGp

 

 

“The plan will likely include several possibilities for remaking the aging airport, both short- and long-term, modest to major. A new terminal, at a cost of more than $1 billion, is one probable option.”

 

“The company will be paid $4.5 million for the plan, funded by the airlines that do business in Cleveland.”

 

 

..........................and in turn passed on to consumers in fares or "fees".

[Sapper Daddy]

I would think even with a new terminal they would look to retain concourse C, no?  

[MyTwoSense]

On 10/22/2019 at 8:19 PM, Sapper Daddy said:

I would think even with a new terminal they would look to retain concourse C, no?  

Why would it?  or do you mean Concourse D?

[Boxtruffles]

I hope D can be retained, although I'm not sure how it will should even fit into the plan--A/B, the FIS, and the main terminal must go though. Pittsburgh just got a brand new $1 billion terminal so something similar does sound appealing, but CLE is pretty landlocked and I'm sure the financial picture varies between us and Pittsburgh.

[Sapper Daddy]

2 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

Why would it?  or do you mean Concourse D?

I don’t know why it would.. maybe both could be salvaged.  I guess I’m proposing that based solely on personal preference.  C feels like any major city airport to me.  Having said that I don’t care a whole lot for United.

[MyTwoSense]

19 hours ago, Sapper Daddy said:

I don’t know why it would.. maybe both could be salvaged.  I guess I’m proposing that based solely on personal preference.  C feels like any major city airport to me.  Having said that I don’t care a whole lot for United.

Concourse D is not connected to the other parts of the airport.  D is newer and could be incorporated into any new design.

[Sapper Daddy]

3 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

Concourse D is not connected to the other parts of the airport.  D is newer and could be incorporated into any new design.

Correct, but C and D are connected through an underground tunnel.  

[GISguy]

5 hours ago, Sapper Daddy said:

Correct, but C and D are connected through an underground tunnel.  

Things I learned today ^

[Boomerang_Brian]

5 hours ago, Sapper Daddy said:

Correct, but C and D are connected through an underground tunnel.  

 

1 minute ago, GISguy said:

Things I learned today ^

 

How did you think people got to terminal D?  Hopefully I don’t come across as snippy, but this comment genuinely confused me. It isn’t connected to anything except via the tunnel to C. 

[GISguy]

11 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

 

How did you think people got to terminal D?  Hopefully I don’t come across as snippy, but this comment genuinely confused me. It isn’t connected to anything except via the tunnel to C. 

I'm a relative newby to Cle, and never saw the terminal functional, I'm an idiot and never even thought of that lol. If anything, I could see them using busses or something, it just seems so isolated where it is (even with a tunnel).

[Boomerang_Brian]

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

I'm a relative newby to Cle, and never saw the terminal functional, I'm an idiot and never even thought of that lol. If anything, I could see them using busses or something, it just seems so isolated where it is (even with a tunnel).

 

That makes sense. Yes, D is isolated. When you are walking down C, right next to Great Lakes Brewery, there is a big Cleveland script sign - that sign is covering the escalators to the tunnel. D is actually a very nice terminal for the commuter jets (ERJs and the like) - perfect for a hub airport. Not so great for an Origin & Destination airport as CLE has become. 

 

I keep thinking that a new Arrivals and Baggage Hall along the southern exit road might work and could tie directly to a renovated D (and C and the existing Arr/ Drop off / pick up area). Then rebuild each existing concourse, one at a time. It would almost certainly be less expensive than a new terminal at the IX center site and it would utilize the existing infrastructure, specifically the parking garage and the RTA station. 

[Enginerd]

That would be a great opportunity to repurpose D, in order to allow the new concourses to be rebuilt one at a time without gate loss. Hope that’s possible.

 

I don’t see any point in keeping C. Compared to new terminals out there it’s still small, dark and narrow.

[MyTwoSense]

For those who don't know and / or are new to Cleveland.  Concourse D was intended to be connected to the main Terminal.  Initially there was to be a Security access point on the southside of the terminal.  The terminal would wrap around to connect with D above for Security and below directly to baggage claim.

 

The terminal was built to accommodate Regional Jets and Boeing 737 or airbus 320 planes.  However, most of the planes that used the terminal were ERJ 135/145s

 

This is why I think the concourse should be kept if a new airport is built as it can be used while the airport is transitioning.

[surfohio]

^ I thought there was a huge underground connector to D. Am I confused in my old age? 

[Mildtraumatic]

If Cleveland had a world class airport. Does everyone feel that would be the number one driver in turning around Cleveland in attracting population and jobs? You know, "build it they will come" scenario. Is it possible? Denver did it. Would there still be risk in failure? Do super airports only get built on geographic locations or population that already exist?

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Mildtraumatic

[FrqntFlyr]

8 minutes ago, Mildtraumatic said:

If Cleveland had a world class airport. Does everyone feel that would be the number one driver in turning around Cleveland in attracting population and jobs? You know, "build it they will come" scenario. Is it possible? Denver did it. Would there still be risk in failure?

 

No

[Mildtraumatic]

23 minutes ago, FrqntFlyr said:

No

Man, you would be a fun interview. 

[MyTwoSense]

9 hours ago, surfohio said:

^ I thought there was a huge underground connector to D. Am I confused in my old age? 

 

Lawd.  Did I say or imply there was not? That question is not sarcasm.

 

INITIALLY concourse D was planned to be connected to the main terminal AND have the underground connection we have today.

 

The Terminal connection was dropped and we were left with just the underground connection we have today.  

 

[MyTwoSense]

48 minutes ago, Mildtraumatic said:

If Cleveland had a world class airport. Does everyone feel that would be the number one driver in turning around Cleveland in attracting population and jobs? You know, "build it they will come" scenario. Is it possible? Denver did it. Would there still be risk in failure? Do super airports only get built on geographic locations or population that already exist?

 

 

What do you mean, "Denver did it"??

Edited October 26, 2019 by MyTwoSense

[plinth857]

49 minutes ago, Mildtraumatic said:

If Cleveland had a world class airport. Does everyone feel that would be the number one driver in turning around Cleveland in attracting population and jobs? You know, "build it they will come" scenario. Is it possible? Denver did it. Would there still be risk in failure? Do super airports only get built on geographic locations or population that already exist?

 

 

Denver has been attracting a lot of jobs due to its economic diversification and an investment in its infrastructure (beyond just the airport).  I agree that investment in the airport in Cleveland could result in increase some economic opportunities.  It definitely would not be the number one driver, though.  

[MyTwoSense]

4 minutes ago, plinth857 said:

 

Denver has been attracting a lot of jobs due to its economic diversification and an investment in its infrastructure (beyond just the airport).  I agree that investment in the airport in Cleveland could result in increase some economic opportunities.  It definitely would not be the number one driver, though.  

Denver was a hub airport for decades.  However, due to location it's a regional hub for business.  There are a lot of variables, so just to write, "Denver did it", is very very misleading and offers no context.

[Boomerang_Brian]

2 hours ago, Mildtraumatic said:

If Cleveland had a world class airport. Does everyone feel that would be the number one driver in turning around Cleveland in attracting population and jobs? You know, "build it they will come" scenario. Is it possible? Denver did it. Would there still be risk in failure? Do super airports only get built on geographic locations or population that already exist?

 

 

I am interested in the new airport master plan. I hope we aggressively pursue either substantial renovation (e.g. replacing or dramatically expanding each concourse) or a new terminal on the site of the IX Center, whichever the current studies find to be more cost effective. (I fully expect the former, but I suppose the latter is possible.) It would certainly have a positive impact on the local economy. 

 

All that said, here are several other projects that I’m confident would have a more substantial economic impact per dollar spent:

- 3C intercity rail to Columbus, Dayton, and Cincinnati , starting w 3 round trips a day, adding more as ridership increases. 

- Relocation of I-90 East to the south of Gordon Park to create an “East Side Edgewater” and bring new residents and investment to St Clair / Superior. 

- Increased investment in Tri C, including expansion of vocational tracks. 

- County support and/or increased state support of CSU. They’ve made tremendous progress; let’s make it a flagship university 

- Successful CityBlock entrepreneurial incubator. 

- Downtown intermodal (rail/bus) transit center at Amtrak location / land bridge over railroad tracks and Shoreway. (Directly connected to convention center and  East 9th Waterfront Line station)

- Full roll out of Ohio Hub intercity rail plan. Imagine trains every hour or two to Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, upstate New York, complementing the previously established 3C to Columbus, Dayton, and Cincinnati. 

- Proper Commuter Rail roll out - connect people to jobs. Lorain to downtown CLE to Solon, Elyria to Hopkins airport to downtown to Lake County, and Hopkins to downtown to Akron to Canton. Think about the nice little downtowns that Hudson and Cuyahoga Falls have created and how much they could benefit w direct public transit to downtown Cle, downtown Akron and BOTH airports. (Also note that this would create regular train service direct from the convention center and the transit center to both airports)

- Completion of the Waterfront Line as a downtown loop, which makes all of the existing and above proposed infrastructure that much more useful. 

- City Target.

 

The airport has the advantage of a funding mechanism for its renovation or replacement - specifically, the fees the airlines pay to it. And I support investment in the airport. I just think there are a bunch of other things that would have s bigger impact per dollar spent. 

[MyTwoSense]

48 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

I am interested in the new airport master plan. I hope we aggressively pursue either substantial renovation (e.g. replacing or dramatically expanding each concourse) or a new terminal on the site of the IX Center, whichever the current studies find to be more cost effective. (I fully expect the former, but I suppose the latter is possible.) It would certainly have a positive impact on the local economy. 

 

The airport has the advantage of a funding mechanism for its renovation or replacement - specifically, the fees the airlines pay to it. And I support investment in the airport. I just think there are a bunch of other things that would have s bigger impact per dollar spent. 

 

With all due respect lets just discuss the airport in this thread/forum. 

 

The airport is captive to those who want leases. If we cannot attract larger airlines that want O/D passengers, rebuilding/building a new airport doesn't solely work. 

 

As a frequent user of Cleveland's airport, we have a large airport in terms of gates.75 gates is nothing to laugh at.  The problem with expansion is we do not have an international terminal.  That is needed, to ensure more European, Asian and Caribbean/S. American passengers.  Along with that we need a MUCH better mass transit system and tri-fold marketing campaign.  One for locals/NE Ohio.  (example how many people know we have a ChinaTown/Asian Village?), Ohio/Touch States and National in Coastal and targeting those that are music fans, dinners/foodies, etc. (but these things are for other threads)

 

Whatever happens, I hope the city uses Concourse D as a place to move airlines while things are being constructed or built.  We'll also need to partner with company's like AMEX to put in lounge.  International-ize local businesses within in the airport. I think the Sheraton should be torn down.  Whatever onsite hotel is built needs to have direct access to the terminal.

 

Our airport needs to make sure they we have representation by ALL domestic carriers, something we currently do not have.  I would love to see Alaska and Hawaiian set up shop here.  Frontier has been successful at building up a leisure passenger base that they designated Cleveland as a Focus City.  IIRC, it's the airlines 5th largest operation.   While Southwest did nothing.  Jet Blue flies to two cities, thats nothing.  Also note, United has increased service to  some routes that it initially cut.  Yet it gave up on Boston.  Now CLE-BOS is served by JetBlue, Delta and soon American.  If JB can take away a route like that from United, they can do better here.  Also Delta on the low increased direct flights from CLE even though DTW is hub and CIN a focus city.  Alaska cut back in Bigger hubs like Dallas, Houston to concentrate on the West Coast, a place we dont have a lot of connections.  Some Alaska or United shuttle flights from Cleveland to Portland, San Jose, San Diego, Seattle and LA., business and leisure travelers would have options. 

 

I would love to fly to San Juan, St. John, St. Croix  or Honolulu.  Internationally Panama city, Bahamas, Dom Rep, Kingston, Vancouver, Montreal, Quebec C., Calgary, London, Frankfort, Berlin, Hong Kong, Singapore, Shanghai, Tokyo, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, San Salvador, Guatemala City, just to name a few places

 

There are a lot of things need to create and maintain a functional, profitable airport. but we need to get the basics right.  A new master plan is a start, but only a start.

 

IF it were up to me, I'd be working with the city/state/county/federal officials to bury 480 and extend all three runways toward North.  I would then building a new terminal south of the current.  I would then move the car rental facility a top the Brookpark train station or create a multi-modal station on the snow road lots.