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Cincinnati: Downtown: Convention Center

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8 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

I think they are going to propose building a new hotel over the expanded convention space. So the Millennium would be demolished, the convention center itself will be expanded east onto to that site, and a new hotel will be built on floors 3+ above that expansion.

 

Would this concept presumably impact the skyline more than the millennium hotel did?

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Philadelphia's is another example of the main exhibit space being on the second floor. I just think if we need a huge open space it has to go up, because adding piecemeal spaces won't really do anything to improve the conventions and the only other option is having to tunnel a downtown road underneath the expansion.

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So fingers crossed for mixed use "tower"  in the lot to the south? Who technically owns that land?

Edited by seaswan

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11 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

I think they are going to propose building a new hotel over the expanded convention space. So the Millennium would be demolished, the convention center itself will be expanded east onto to that site, and a new hotel will be built on floors 3+ above that expansion.

 

If so the end layout will be a huge compromise.  The main benefit of expanding eastward is that the entrance to the center will move closer to the center of downtown, but the expansion will not be very significant.  A westward expansion over Central Ave. and I-75 enables a much larger exhibition hall, ostensibly the purpose of the center.  

 

They could have built an all-new convention center on the Kahn's site that could have been huge.  They could have had cab access off the Hopple St. viaduct.  

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, troeros said:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2019/08/08/local-developer-rob-smyjunas-negotiating-contract-buy-millennium-which-would-demolished-future-devel/1953646001/

 

This latest article makes it sound like the plan is indeed to expand the convention center with the millennium lot and then build a new convention hotel above the expansion. 

 

The money quote

"The hotel would be demolished for a new development, which could include a hotel"

 

Or it could include the new downtown Super Wal-Mart and Meijer. I know Vandercar has lots of experience with that type of development.

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Now that I look at it, Philadelphia's is actually kind of what I was picturing. It looks 'L' shaped in plan, but has a large open hall on the upper floor spanning multiple blocks. I just really hate the idea of either making a dead end street - like Plum - or burying a street in a tunnel - like would need to be done to Elm. 

image.png.e2e3f586fa36def46ed61143326bc6c9.png

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23 minutes ago, seaswan said:

So fingers crossed for mixed use "tower"  in the lot to the south? Who technically owns that land?

 

I believe if I'm not mistaken its 3cdc and the Port Authority.

 

Im fairly confident that what might happen in that 3cdc builds a mixed use development with a smaller capacity name brand hotel...They complete that project and then the Millennium Hotel would be demolished for the expansion of the convention center and the new convention hotel. 

 

 I just don't think it would be in the convention best interest to go 2 plus years without an immediate replace for the hotel capacity lost by the millennium. 

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3 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

 

The money quote

"The hotel would be demolished for a new development, which could include a hotel"

 

Or it could include the new downtown Super Wal-Mart and Meijer. I know Vandercar has lots of experience with that type of development.

 

Let's be honest, a downtown Walmart would be the biggest development seen in the downtown urban core in the past 15 years.

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12 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Let's be honest, a downtown Walmart would be the biggest development seen in the downtown urban core in the past 15 years.

Lolwut.

 

Vandercar is concerning. They inspire zero confidence.

Although the Millennium is a terrible hotel, it would have been nice to have an adaptive reuse of the existing structures, new hotels built on the vacant lot, and a westward expansion of the convention center. I feel like that would have added the most life to western downtown.

 

This current plan will remove a chunk of the skyline for a big question mark. That's concerning to me.

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9 minutes ago, jmicha said:

This current plan will remove a chunk of the skyline for a big question mark. That's concerning to me.

 

Agreed.

 

And I actually like the design of the building too, I much prefer the adaptive reuse idea

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14 minutes ago, jmicha said:

Lolwut.

 

Vandercar is concerning. They inspire zero confidence.

Although the Millennium is a terrible hotel, it would have been nice to have an adaptive reuse of the existing structures, new hotels built on the vacant lot, and a westward expansion of the convention center. I feel like that would have added the most life to western downtown.

 

This current plan will remove a chunk of the skyline for a big question mark. That's concerning to me.

 

If the plan is to build an expanded convention center and new convention hotel with high room capacity i would have to imagine it would probably reach a similar if not a bit taller than the millenium.

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33 minutes ago, jmicha said:

Lolwut.

 

Vandercar is concerning. They inspire zero confidence.

Although the Millennium is a terrible hotel, it would have been nice to have an adaptive reuse of the existing structures, new hotels built on the vacant lot, and a westward expansion of the convention center. I feel like that would have added the most life to western downtown.

 

This current plan will remove a chunk of the skyline for a big question mark. That's concerning to me.

 

Agreed. Big problems and long delays are possible if/when they try to demolish the Millennium. What you suggest is both the path of least resistance, least traumatic to the urban fabric, and could provide the most benefit. 

Edited by thebillshark

www.cincinnatiideas.com

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I would guess this moves quickly. They will pull together a plan for the full development, build the new convention center hotel on the currently owned lot, demolish the Millenium, expand the convention center there and build another hotel on top

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Seems like this could be a big scam by Cranley to reward Vendercaar for his endless donations.  How much more will the city/port pay Vandercar for the Millennium property than he just paid for it.   

 

 

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7 hours ago, taestell said:

Well the problem with expanding east is that you completely kill the pedestrian activity on Elm. As soon as you make Elm an "underpass" below the convention center, people won't walk there. If you expand north across 6th (which is already a pedestrian dead zone) you keep the convention center blob more contained to the west side of downtown (east of Elm), and you have the potential to make Elm Street and Fifth Street into much more vibrant, pedestrian-oriented streets. Especially if 3CDC eventually builds a hotel or other mixed-use development on their south lot, bringing more pedestrian activity to Fourth and Fifth streets.

 

This can be done well... Philadelphia is a terrible example of a piss-stenched convention center underbelly. Look, instead, at the Washington State Convention Center. It does not suffer as the Philadelphia Convention Center does. https://goo.gl/maps/HM9UTELRSLaK5KFc7

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I'm a little lost with some of these reactions...

 

It's been well known that it's been the highest of priorities for Hamilton County and 3CDC to expand the convention center, to replace the terrible Millennium Hotel and expand the hotel capacity rate all while allowing guests to experience a quality convention hotel.

 

It sounds like everything is in place for all of this to happen in the very near future but instead it's full of alarm and concern....I know the developer draws concern, but it's pretty clear that this property will become part of the expanded Convention center and a connected convention hotel...So I'm not understanding the remaining concern? 

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3 hours ago, troeros said:

I'm a little lost with some of these reactions...

 

It's been well known that it's been the highest of priorities for Hamilton County and 3CDC to expand the convention center, to replace the terrible Millennium Hotel and expand the hotel capacity rate all while allowing guests to experience a quality convention hotel.

 

It sounds like everything is in place for all of this to happen in the very near future but instead it's full of alarm and concern....I know the developer draws concern, but it's pretty clear that this property will become part of the expanded Convention center and a connected convention hotel...So I'm not understanding the remaining concern? 

Vandercar development should never be trust. That guy is a snake in the grass. He will get the hotel then next thing you know drag his feet and expect major subsides and breaks from all government entities. Ten year later hotel is still standing in even worse condition and everyone is pointing fingers at each other because the county got in bed with a developer that has a bad track record. Not a big fan of 3CDC or Steve Leeper, but he seems to always come through on getting s*** done.

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1 hour ago, troeros said:

It sounds like everything is in place for all of this to happen in the very near future but instead it's full of alarm and concern

 

Virtually no information is actually known about what Vandercar and Hamilton County want to do. That is the cause of the concern.

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28 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

Virtually no information is actually known about what Vandercar and Hamilton County want to do. That is the cause of the concern.

 

We don't even know if it's vandercar... All that has been reported has been purely based off unconfirmed reports in the biz journal article and in the enquirer article..

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3 hours ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

 

This can be done well... Philadelphia is a terrible example of a piss-stenched convention center underbelly. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, jmicha said:

Lolwut.

 

Vandercar is concerning. They inspire zero confidence.

Although the Millennium is a terrible hotel, it would have been nice to have an adaptive reuse of the existing structures, new hotels built on the vacant lot, and a westward expansion of the convention center. I feel like that would have added the most life to western downtown.

 

This current plan will remove a chunk of the skyline for a big question mark. That's concerning to me.

I sort of liked the idea of building a world class hotel to the South of the Convention center and then letting the Millenium still operate as a mid priced downtown option.


As a convention hotel, it is a dump. However, as a mid priced downtown hotel, it would serve that market fine in its present condition.

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If everything goes through (the sale) can the city council stop the demolition?  LI do not understand why they would want to tear down the millenium and not try to but the parcel of land that 3CDC owns. 

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49 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

If everything goes through (the sale) can the city council stop the demolition?  LI do not understand why they would want to tear down the millenium and not try to but the parcel of land that 3CDC owns. 

Don't worry, Seelbach will seek to declare it a historic property so it cant be torn down

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13 hours ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

 

This can be done well... Philadelphia is a terrible example of a piss-stenched convention center underbelly. Look, instead, at the Washington State Convention Center. It does not suffer as the Philadelphia Convention Center does. https://goo.gl/maps/HM9UTELRSLaK5KFc7

THIS is the model we should be pursuing!

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9 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

If everything goes through (the sale) can the city council stop the demolition?  LI do not understand why they would want to tear down the millenium and not try to but the parcel of land that 3CDC owns. 

 

Im fairly certain that Hamilton County, 3CDC, Port Authority and Vandercar are all coming up with a master plan for both sites.

 

The success of the convention center and of a convention center hotel/hotels is pretty high priority for these groups.

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14 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Im fairly certain that Hamilton County, 3CDC, Port Authority and Vandercar are all coming up with a master plan for both sites.

 

The success of the convention center and of a convention center hotel/hotels is pretty high priority for these groups.

 

Just remember that Vandercar also came up with the plan for Oakley Station (they even named a street after themselves).  

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I find it hard to get excited about this news. Under contract is not "signed, sealed and delivered" so I'm not holding my breath. The owners of the Millennium have been wily in the past so I wouldn't put it past them to ghost at the last minute or screw up the deal.

 

Vandercar has a pretty terrible record as an urban developer but they are a partner and developer for the Summit Park mixed-use at Blue Ash. I would group them with the other local developers that are trying to do urban but need coaxing to be pushed to build better. The development community for the most part is starting to get it, but they still want to do it on the cheap. 

 

If the deal for the Millennium goes through, they will need help and they will need to be challenged to design better. We can dream about skyline altering, which I am sure this one is, but the real focus needs to be on how this meets the street.


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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16 hours ago, IAGuy39 said:

I would guess this moves quickly. They will pull together a plan for the full development, build the new convention center hotel on the currently owned lot, demolish the Millenium, expand the convention center there and build another hotel on top

Maybe the RFP was pulled because they may need to increase the room count, as it is no guarantee that a new hotel is built on the Millenium site. Maybe 84.51 expands over the convention center so 3CDC can keep their garage?

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16 minutes ago, CincyIntheKnow said:

Maybe 84.51 expands over the convention center so 3CDC can keep their garage?

 

Yeah, that thought crossed my mind as well. 3CDC is working to find 84.51 additional office space somewhere downtown. If all of the parties came to the table, it would make a lot of sense for a new hotel to be built on the 3CDC south lot, then the Millennium demolished, then the 84.51 building expanded to occupy the whole block. Not sure which direction the convention center expansion would go in this scenario.

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personally, going North would be the only way to expand, you don't lose any street presence since that area is a cavern anyway. Tunnel under to the highway. Close off the entrance to Central Ave on that side and make that way the entrance to 75. tear down the garage and tear down the Pure Romance building, expand the convention center that way.

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11 minutes ago, jmblec2 said:

how much bigger does the convention area need to be to start competing for the larger events?  

 

Kind of hard to answer because every event wants something slightly different so I guess it mostly on who Cincinnati wants to compete with regionally or nationally for events. I would say best guess though, to compete for the larger events to go to other regional cities, Cincinnati would need to double the current convention center size and hotel offerings. 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, CincyIntheKnow said:

Maybe the RFP was pulled because they may need to increase the room count, as it is no guarantee that a new hotel is built on the Millenium site. Maybe 84.51 expands over the convention center so 3CDC can keep their garage?

 

 

You guys are forgetting about Fountain Place, I think that project is signed, sealed and will be delivered no later than next month. It’s seems 84.51/ Kroger is the office user there according to rumors which would take them out of the discussion on the millennium site.

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5 minutes ago, 646empire said:

 

 

You guys are forgetting about Fountain Place, I think that project is signed, sealed and will be delivered no later than next month. It’s seems 84.51/ Kroger is the office user there according to rumors which would take them out of the discussion on the millennium site.

 

How many office workers can fit in fountain place? I know 84.51 is expanding quite significantly so I'm curious if fountain place can't fulfill the growth that 84.51 is seeking

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24 minutes ago, jmblec2 said:

how much bigger does the convention area need to be to start competing for the larger events?  

 

There need to be more truck dock doors to do more exhibition space.  It is absurd how much space is necessary for all of the trucks:

https://www.nashvillemusiccitycenter.com/floorplans/floor-3/level-3-exhibit-hall

 

So when we say we're building a convention center, a quarter of it is just enclosed parkingfor semi trailers. 

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Oh yeah, the Cincinnati loading dock is very old-fashioned. Any convention center loading dock from before the mid-'90s is equivalent to a highway designed in 1930s. There's so many truckers today that never ever wanted to do that for a living but had to due to the unlimited demand that just aren't good. Loading docks need to be extra Duplo today.

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3 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

How many office workers can fit in fountain place? I know 84.51 is expanding quite significantly so I'm curious if fountain place can't fulfill the growth that 84.51 is seeking

 

 

Hard to say and depends on the type of job they want to place in the building. I believe they could put quite a lot. It’s easy to forget that Macy’s wasn’t even using all of its 3rd floor when it was open. Plus I would assume the office user would extend all the way over into the old palomino restaurant on the vine street side to get those fountain square views?

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1 hour ago, DevolsDance said:

Kind of hard to answer because every event wants something slightly different so I guess it mostly on who Cincinnati wants to compete with regionally or nationally for events. I would say best guess though, to compete for the larger events to go to other regional cities, Cincinnati would need to double the current convention center size and hotel offerings. 

 

If we are looking to compete with Indy or Nashville for major nationwide conventions, I highly doubt we can do that given the constraints of the current set-up. 

 

I don't know much about conventions, but it would be prudent during this expansion to try and develop with a niche or two in mind, something those other two can't offer and lock it in that way.

 

If we actually worked as a cohesive region, the best idea would be to expand the Covington convention center into the IRS lot, at which point, we could create a better convention center than Indy or Nashville, but it is KY, so nah.

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