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Cincinnati: Downtown: Convention Center / Hotel

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50 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

Yeah - on the wall facing 6th St, it used to have lettering saying "Court Sports / Fitness Club", which you can see in old streetview photos: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.102059,-84.5165279,3a,77.3y,34.68h,116.74t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shdLeXcwnRVW0Ai65Yrn1AQ!2e0!5s20120901T000000!7i13312!8i6656

 

Anybody have photos of the inside of that building? 

 

All i remember was that it was started and owned by Pat Matson who use to play for the Cincinnati Bengals in the 70s. 

 

image.png.acd90a3065563ce054161cd4192172c4.png

Edited by savadams13

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Port OKs bonds to acquire, demolish Millennium Hotel

By Chris Wetterich  – Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

 

The Port of Greater Cincinnati Development Authority’s board unanimously approved issuing $59 million in bonds on Wednesday to acquire, demolish and secure the Millennium Hotel, another step toward putting the property at 150 W. Fifth St. in public hands.

 

The bonds will be backed by Hamilton County’s share of the local hotel tax. The Convention Facilities Authority must still approve the use of that revenue source and is scheduled to meet this month.

 

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45 minutes ago, The_Cincinnati_Kid said:

Port OKs bonds to acquire, demolish Millennium Hotel

By Chris Wetterich  – Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

 

The Port of Greater Cincinnati Development Authority’s board unanimously approved issuing $59 million in bonds on Wednesday to acquire, demolish and secure the Millennium Hotel, another step toward putting the property at 150 W. Fifth St. in public hands.

 

The bonds will be backed by Hamilton County’s share of the local hotel tax. The Convention Facilities Authority must still approve the use of that revenue source and is scheduled to meet this month.

 

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If it’s going to take a year I am assuming that it will not be imploded but basically disassembled? 

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$59 million seems like a lot to get back to a vacant lot. What if they sunk that much into renovation into apartments and built the hotel on the lot to the south? (Apartment conversion could be difficult because of many factors but could $59 million make it work?) 

Edited by thebillshark

www.cincinnatiideas.com

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18 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

$59 million seems like a lot to get back to a vacant lot. What if they sunk that much into renovation into apartments and built the hotel on the lot to the south? (Apartment conversion could be difficult because of many factors but could $59 million make it work?) 

I've said it before but I wish they would renovate the Stouffer's Inn portion into either a new hotel or an apartment building while demolishing the northern additions. That way revenue could be made while we still look for a new convention flagship hotel instead of having just a vacant lot. 

image.png.41d8a8fee1b66ccd6aad681a0a11ef4e.png

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28 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

So what is the over under on how long this will just be a giant parking lot? 3 years/5 years?

 

Probably less than 2. A dedicated connected convention center hotel is critical for most convention centers in US Cities. Convention Center officials are also very bullish on wanting to expand the center. I think that serves as a dual purpose project and will have a quick turn around time on getting this site redeveloped into a new name brand convention center hotel with an expanded convention center underneath the hotel. 

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My opinion, they are spending way too much money on this to not have it move forward right away.

 

What is the precedent again exactly that people are nervous it will be a lot for awhile? Fourth and Race, Dunnhumby site? I don't know what the public portion of Dunnhumby was, but I have to think, it wasn't $59 million? I think Fourth and Race started at 10 million then dropped to 5 million maybe? (I am not counting TIF).

 

 

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3 hours ago, thebillshark said:

$59 million seems like a lot to get back to a vacant lot.

 

It just blows my mind that the same "fiscal conservatives" who lost their minds when the city proposed renovating the City Hall courtyard at a cost of $4 million, or say that the streetcar's $4 million/year operating cost is going to bankrupt the city, but don't make a peep when the county votes to spend nearly $60 million to acquire and demolish a building when there's not even a firm plan in place for its replacement.

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18 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

It just blows my mind that the same "fiscal conservatives" who lost their minds when the city proposed renovating the City Hall courtyard at a cost of $4 million, or say that the streetcar's $4 million/year operating cost is going to bankrupt the city, but don't make a peep when the county votes to spend nearly $60 million to acquire and demolish a building when there's not even a firm plan in place for its replacement.

 

I mean they have a firm plan I thought? Aren't they weighing the 3 options of the various hotel rooms with one option being a convention center expansion beneath and the other two options with no convention expansion with less rooms? There was an info graphic published by the business courier not to long ago regarding this. 

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If they are still weighing 3 options, it is by definition not a "firm plan". The Convention Center isn't even sure if they need to expand -- they just started studying it in October and probably won't know the answer for a few more months. So we don't know what size the new hotel will be, whether a convention center expansion will be incorporated into the new building, and whether the city would even agree to the Elm Street closure that may or may not be required to build the expansion.

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17 minutes ago, taestell said:

If they are still weighing 3 options, it is by definition not a "firm plan". The Convention Center isn't even sure if they need to expand -- they just started studying it in October and probably won't know the answer for a few more months. So we don't know what size the new hotel will be, whether a convention center expansion will be incorporated into the new building, and whether the city would even agree to the Elm Street closure that may or may not be required to build the expansion.

 

Regardless if the demo requires a full year from once the process begins, they can surely finalize their firm plan once demolition is nearing to completion...

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6 hours ago, troeros said:

 

Regardless if the demo requires a full year from once the process begins, they can surely finalize their firm plan once demolition is nearing to completion...


Fourth & Walnut Center has been in design and financing phase for more than 3 years and still hasn’t started.  Finding a developer and generating a design will take far longer than 1 year.  I’d bet closer to 5 years as parking than 3.

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11 hours ago, thebillshark said:

$59 million seems like a lot to get back to a vacant lot. What if they sunk that much into renovation into apartments and built the hotel on the lot to the south? (Apartment conversion could be difficult because of many factors but could $59 million make it work?) 


Renovation would cost far more than $59 million and the basic shell and lack of historical significance is not conducive to an upscale hotel or apartments.

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31 minutes ago, thesenator said:


Renovation would cost far more than $59 million and the basic shell and lack of historical significance is not conducive to an upscale hotel or apartments.


actually you could spend more than $59 million on a renovation and still come out ahead because at the end you’d have a asset worth more than a vacant lot 


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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1 hour ago, thesenator said:


Fourth & Walnut Center has been in design and financing phase for more than 3 years and still hasn’t started.  Finding a developer and generating a design will take far longer than 1 year.  I’d bet closer to 5 years as parking than 3.


I disagree. I 100% expect a groundbreaking on a large new convention center hotel by summer/fall 2021. They simply cannot wait that long to get this project done. Big conventions book host cities years in advance, if they take 5 years like you said that would put the hotel completion in the mid to late 2020s there for the city realistically would miss the entire decade of large events and that’s definitely not happening. Also they already have a developer/s and design will not take that long. At this point it’s really just about money. The question posed above is a tricky one because my gut says there is still a significant chance the hotel will end up getting built by/on the 3cdc lot like originally planned and they will decide to use the millennium hotel lot for convention center expansion only, which if that happens I could definitely see them not breaking ground on a separate convention center expansion for 4-5 years. 

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Interesting idea, build a new hotel on the 5th and plum lot, convince the convention center they don't need to do an expansion, and then give the space where the Millenium is over to 84.51 for expansion.

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As everyone has said before, we can only hope city leaders have something big in the pipeline or else this razing makes absolutely no sense.  This is a potentially huge project and we'll all be keeping close eyes on the outcome for when we hit the voting polls again.

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Whoever designed the 84.51 building was a complete idiot.  It was built way too small.  84.51 apparently has the right to take over the parking garage floors that are above ground, but supposedly 3CDC doesn't want to let them do that so they can continue to make money off the parking.  Why they didn't just make the building 3-5 more floors tall is beyond me.  They could have just rented out that space until 84.51 needed it.  

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12 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Whoever designed the 84.51 building was a complete idiot.  It was built way too small.  84.51 apparently has the right to take over the parking garage floors that are above ground, but supposedly 3CDC doesn't want to let them do that so they can continue to make money off the parking.  Why they didn't just make the building 3-5 more floors tall is beyond me.  They could have just rented out that space until 84.51 needed it.  

I wonder if the current building can support additional floors.

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1 hour ago, Cincy513 said:

Whoever designed the 84.51 building was a complete idiot.  It was built way too small.  84.51 apparently has the right to take over the parking garage floors that are above ground, but supposedly 3CDC doesn't want to let them do that so they can continue to make money off the parking.  Why they didn't just make the building 3-5 more floors tall is beyond me.  They could have just rented out that space until 84.51 needed it.  

 

Gensler designed the building, but I would redirect your criticisms to the owner/developer. The designers don't get to decide how much space to build.

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Once the 4th and Race garage+apartments is done, and then if we build another Cincinnati special, retail+parking garage+apartments either on the 5th and plum site, or current Millennium site, Maybe then 3cdc would be ok giving up the 84.51 parking.

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1 hour ago, JoeHarmon said:

Once the 4th and Race garage+apartments is done, and then if we build another Cincinnati special, retail+parking garage+apartments either on the 5th and plum site, or current Millennium site, Maybe then 3cdc would be ok giving up the 84.51 parking.


They aren’t going to convert the rest of 84.51 into office space for a long time if ever. You guys are forgetting the 200,000 square feet of Class A space they are putting in Fountain Place.

Edited by 646empire

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3 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

Whoever designed the 84.51 building was a complete idiot.  It was built way too small.  84.51 apparently has the right to take over the parking garage floors that are above ground, but supposedly 3CDC doesn't want to let them do that so they can continue to make money off the parking.  Why they didn't just make the building 3-5 more floors tall is beyond me.  They could have just rented out that space until 84.51 needed it.  

 

It sounds like the problem isn't really with the design, it's the agreement between 84.51 and 3CDC. The fact that 84.51 can say "we need more space, let's convert those parking levels to office space now..." and 3CDC can simply say "no" is the problem.

 

1 hour ago, 646empire said:

They aren’t going to convert the rest of 84.51 into office space for a long time if ever. You guys are forgetting the 200,000 square feet of Class A space they are putting in Fountain Place.

 

Has it been officially announced that 84.51 is going into Fountain Place? Or is this simply one of the worst kept secrets in Cincinnati?

 

In an event, I'm sure 84.51 would rather keep all of their employees in their namesake building, rather than splitting them between two different buildings across the street from each other.

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18 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

It sounds like the problem isn't really with the design, it's the agreement between 84.51 and 3CDC. The fact that 84.51 can say "we need more space, let's convert those parking levels to office space now..." and 3CDC can simply say "no" is the problem.

 

 

Has it been officially announced that 84.51 is going into Fountain Place? Or is this simply one of the worst kept secrets in Cincinnati?

 

In an event, I'm sure 84.51 would rather keep all of their employees in their namesake building, rather than splitting them between two different buildings across the street from each other.


It hasn’t been announced nor confirmed that the tenant is 84.51 AKA Kroger. I actually think 84.51 would prefer to keep their parking and expand into fountain place rather than expand in the current building and lose their employee parking and have them all walk to nearby garages and parking lots. Anyway this thread is about the convention hotel, sorry!

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12 minutes ago, 646empire said:


It hasn’t been announced nor confirmed that the tenant is 84.51 AKA Kroger. I actually think 84.51 would prefer to keep their parking and expand into fountain place rather than expand in the current building and lose their employee parking and have them all walk to nearby garages and parking lots. Anyway this thread is about the convention hotel, sorry!

No company would rather be split between two locations just so their employees can have better parking spots.  But if their lawyers were dumb enough to not get expansion rights into the garage in a written contract then that's their fault.  

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3 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

No company would rather be split between two locations just so their employees can have better parking spots.  But if their lawyers were dumb enough to not get expansion rights into the garage in a written contract then that's their fault.  


Parking matters a lot to these companies rather folks want to admit it or not. Companies love on site parking especially for security reasons and with weather such as Ohio. Also this whole “split between 2 locations” argument is silly in my opinion. Fountain Place and 84.51 are literally next door to each other lol. It would be just like if they had a campus style setup in multiple buildings like many companies do. But to get back on topic I don’t think any 84.51 Expansion will involve the millennium site.

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53 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

In an event, I'm sure 84.51 would rather keep all of their employees in their namesake building, rather than splitting them between two different buildings across the street from each other.

 

Too bad we tore down the never-used skywalk across Race Street. 

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Kroger IT, not their 84 51 division, will be taking the space.  Allegedly. 

 

I've heard from friends in IT that Kroger has been making generous offers for talent the last couple of years.  I'd assume offices in the heart of downtown are part of that generosity.  

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1 minute ago, nicker66 said:

I've heard from friends in IT that Kroger has been making generous offers for talent the last couple of years.  I'd assume offices in the heart of downtown are part of that generosity.  

 

For sure. Kroger has rebranded their IT department as Kroger Technology and I think they understand that they have to up their game if they want to compete for top talent. Building new high quality office space downtown is definitely part of that equation.

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When I first got out of school in the mid-2000s, I only applied for Downtown positions at companies. I had no idea how coveted the Downtown slots were as compared to the suburban ones and how intense the competition would be for them (controlling for equivalent roles/responsibility). I didn't get any of the jobs.  What I am surprised by is the very slow response by companies to the change. It really only was 20 years (1975-1995) that competition for the suburban jobs was higher yet here we are still dealing with a fad from 1982.

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48 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

For sure. Kroger has rebranded their IT department as Kroger Technology and I think they understand that they have to up their game if they want to compete for top talent. Building new high quality office space downtown is definitely part of that equation.

Isn't Kroger Technology already headquartering in the Atrium complex?  

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Yes - 

 


"It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton

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6 hours ago, Cygnus said:

Yes - 

 

Yes... and No, I work for Kroger. The group in the atrium is just Kroger Digital, app development/web. There is a whole bunch of other technology groups in blue ash. I have no idea if they are moving. 

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Convention Facilities Authority votes to give Port money to acquire, demolish Millennium Hotel

 

The Hamilton County Convention Facilities Authority voted unanimously on Friday to provide the Port of Greater Cincinnati Development Authority with the money to buy and demolish the Millennium Hotel downtown.

 

The purchase and demolition is estimated to cost $54 million. The site will be sealed once the year-long demolition is complete, said Port CEO Laura Brunner. No parking lot will be built upon it.

 

What’s next isn’t clear. The Port continues to do its due diligence on the hotel purchase from Millennium & Copthorne Hotels, which must be complete on Feb. 14. Meanwhile, the Cincinnati Business Committee and the Cincinnati USA Convention and Visitors Bureau are studying the viability of a new convention hotel, expanded convention center and the region’s needs in terms of a downtown arena.

 

The demolition and purchase probably will exhaust the surplus funds available to the county from the local hotel tax, Brad Ruwe, a Dinsmore & Shohl partner advising the board, told its members. The city already has spent its extra money, having committed it to FC Cincinnati stadium-related infrastructure. That means there will be little to nothing left to build the hotel, expand the convention center itself, help finance a new or rehabilitated arena or any other regional tourism-related priority. Under state law, the hotel tax proceeds generally must be used for tourism related purposes.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/01/24/convention-facilities-authority-votes-to-give-port.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Definitely at least 5 years before a new hotel opens on this site with no financial support.  Had to happen, but wish City and County were better stewards of funds and leveraged them with other long term funding sources.

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On 1/16/2020 at 10:24 AM, Cincy513 said:

Whoever designed the 84.51 building was a complete idiot.  It was built way too small.  84.51 apparently has the right to take over the parking garage floors that are above ground, but supposedly 3CDC doesn't want to let them do that so they can continue to make money off the parking.  Why they didn't just make the building 3-5 more floors tall is beyond me.  They could have just rented out that space until 84.51 needed it.  

 

It's highly likely (if not a certainty) that less parking space will be needed in the future with autonomous vehicles.  Forward looking developers are building garages with flat floors so they can be converted to a different use in the future.  I expect that 84.51 didn't foresee a definite need the extra floors when the building was built and didn't want to build unnecessary floors.  With the many office buildings downtown being converted into hotels and apartments with little to no new office construction, it appears there is not much demand for new office space, particularly this late in an economic cycle. 

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Ahem:

Quote

The demolition and purchase probably will exhaust the surplus funds available to the county from the local hotel tax, Brad Ruwe, a Dinsmore & Shohl partner advising the board, told its members. The city already has spent its extra money, having committed it to FC Cincinnati stadium-related infrastructure. That means there will be little to nothing left to build the hotel, expand the convention center itself, help finance a new or rehabilitated arena or any other regional tourism-related priority. Under state law, the hotel tax proceeds generally must be used for tourism related purposes.

 

This is an absolute disaster.  One Cranley stooge after another getting paid off with public funds. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Exhausting the city's and county's hotel tax funds to buy and demolish a hotel, then turning the vacant lot over to Vandercar with no specific plan or obligations in place, is the ultimate screw-downtown-on-your-way-out move that Cranley can get behind.

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