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Cincinnati: Downtown: Convention Center / Hotel

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1 hour ago, GCrites80s said:

Fact is, statewide shows are always going to prefer Columbus; at least ones that don't make it a point to rotate.

State conventions are not going to Columbus, they go to Kallahari.

 

In all seriousness, not many state organizations are going to draw enough people to fill a convention center the size of Cincy, Cleve or Columbus. Many of them go to the smaller centers in Dayton, Toledo, Sharonville. Some will go to Columbus because the state agency is there.

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Your post reveals that you don't know what a state show actually is. They don't consist of shows put on by state agencies but rather ones by state associations which are private entities.

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3 hours ago, 646empire said:

 

 

The original and most important reason for this project is now getting lost on this forum. This project was and is about THE HOTEL. The only reason why they are now trying to incorporate a convention center expansion is because it’s the most practical direction to expand. It’s obvious government officials now want to do a sort of “2 in 1” project which is smart. Much smarter than a crazy and expensive westward expansion over an express way or the idea of building a whole new convention center somewhere outside of downtown which is laughable. 

 

You have a point that is widely being ignored.

 

Our convention center is a pile of utter crap. The millennium looks ugly and outdated as hell. It's bug bed infested and smells like mold and cigarettes. The fact that Dayton has a better Convention Hotel says everything about how bad the Millennium is, and how badly it needs a replacement. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, troeros said:

 

You have a point that is widely being ignored.

 

Our convention center is a pile of utter crap. The millennium looks ugly and outdated as hell. It's bug bed infested and smells like mold and cigarettes. The fact that Dayton has a better Convention Hotel says everything about how bad the Millennium is, and how badly it needs a replacement. 

 

 

 

Millennium is in rough shape yes, but its not worse than the Crowne Plaza in Dayton. The Crowne Plaza is really old building with a ton of issues, it just has a veneer of lipstick on the interior at the moment. 

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5 minutes ago, savadams13 said:

 

Millennium is in rough shape yes, but its not worse than the Crowne Plaza in Dayton. The Crowne Plaza is really old building with a ton of issues, it just has a veneer of lipstick on the interior at the moment. 

 

I stayed there 2 years ago for my gf dance competition and didn't have a problem with the Crowne Plaza.

 

Last time I stayed at millennium our non smoking room reeked of cigarettes, like embedded in the furniture...large patches of mold in the bathroom ceiling, seriously out dated rooms, and stains in the bed sheets that we discovered when we shined our flash light underneath. 

 

It's just a really crappy place and I'm glad to see it go. 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, savadams13 said:

 

Millennium is in rough shape yes, but its not worse than the Crowne Plaza in Dayton. The Crowne Plaza is really old building with a ton of issues, it just has a veneer of lipstick on the interior at the moment. 

 

They are both old Stouffer hotels.  Crowne Plaza's interior is certainly "better" than the Millennium but both are out-dated properties.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Removing Elm street should really be a non-starter. Central Ave was already partially removed for FC's new stadium, Plum was removed decades ago leaving Elm as the only northbound continuous road to get people from downtown up to OTR/Northern Liberties. All of the traffic coming off I-75/US50 off the 5th street exit will be funneled to Fountain Square and Vine street if this were to happen, and Vine street is already very congested between 4th and 7th. 

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The willingness of our current city leaders to remove sections of streets in their attempt to chase the Next Big Development Of The Moment shows how short-sighted they are. It's like they learned no lessons from the urban renewal era and have no understanding of what makes fine-grained urbanism more appealing than megablock developments. And yet we keep doing it over and over again, mutilating our street grid whenever a developer asks us to.

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This sounds like a classic hurry-up developer scam:

Quote

Commissioners now face a question: Do they put up the $1.3 million in hotel tax money and risk losing it and sustaining a black eye with the public if the due diligence shows fatal problems with Smyjunas’ proposed deal? If they don’t, they could lose a rare opportunity for local governments to revitalize a stagnating part of downtown.

 

Don't do it.  Don't fall for the trap.  

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15 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

This sounds like a classic hurry-up developer scam:

 

Don't do it.  Don't fall for the trap.  

I disagree on this. 2 key reasons.

1) You get control of the site. even if the deal to redevelop the center into the new convention center falls through, you can still buy the hotel and control that block. You would have control of it, you can keep it open under a management agreement, tear it down, sell it to a better operator, etc. Getting that control would be powerful given the current frustration the city has with the Millennium operator.

2) The Port Authority is going to be the owner so if the Smyjunas plan does not work, the Port still owns the property and can figure out a plan B at that point. Right now the goal is to get control.

 

There may be debate about going over Elm Street with an expansion or doing something else. That wont change with the sale of this hotel. At the end of the day, the County will now have control of the property instead of the hotel company which will make it much easier for development down the line in whatever form it looks like. Control the asset, you have a lot of options with it at that point.

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If they do it, they will get lambasted in 2020 over their lack of fiscal responsibility... then again, they will get lambasted anyway

 

I honestly have no clue how to come down on this issue.  On one hand, what the seller is doing is annoying and ticks me off, on the other, it is a big opportunity.

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50 minutes ago, cincydave8 said:

Either way it's a hell of a risk and if the commissioners do it, they better hope it pays off. 

Absolutely, but this is a chance to show true leadership. It is easy to say no.

 

I think Portune obviously wants to move forward. I think his experience in these types of issues gives him the reason why

 

Dreihaus is on the fence. She will likely side with Portune, but her West Side sensibilities probably give her pause, plus if it blows up it will not play well with voters.

 

Dumas, wants to delay because she is in over her head on these matters.

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22 minutes ago, RJohnson said:

when its all said and done, the city will settle for an Artistry (6 story apartment complex).

 

 

 

Kind of hard to settle for an Artistery when the whole reason this is being pushed hard in the first place is because Cincinnati badly needs an updated Convention Center Hotel.

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57 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

If they do it, they will get lambasted in 2020 over their lack of fiscal responsibility... then again, they will get lambasted anyway

 

I honestly have no clue how to come down on this issue.  On one hand, what the seller is doing is annoying and ticks me off, on the other, it is a big opportunity.

Yet our city council is going to pay almost $600k to unnecessarily restructure the streetcar.  Give me a break on fiscal responsibility,  this is the first chance the county has gotten in decades to get control of the pile of garbage that is the Millennium.  If they don't jump on this now we'll end up like St. Louis with an empty and decrepit Millennium.  So we'd then have two empty hotels rotting away on prime downtown blocks.  

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17 minutes ago, 646empire said:

 

Thank God. They need to get going on this ASAP. 

 

Agreed. The convention center needs to be expanded and our current convention center hotel sucks plain and simple. We can debate all day if this the right way to expand the convention center but this opportunity to redevelop both the convention center and convention hotel are now. We might not have another chance after this. 

 

Btw when can we retitle the thread, Hotel Signia and Convention Center Expansion Development thread?

 

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51 minutes ago, troeros said:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/26/hamilton-county-steps-up-on-millennium-hotel-deal.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline


County Steps up and allows for Hilton Signia and Convention Center Expansion to move forward!

Surprise, Surprise, Stephanie Dumass votes against it and calls it the worst deal she has ever seen. She is completely over her head on this.

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21 minutes ago, troeros said:

Btw when can we retitle the thread, Hotel Signia and Convention Center Expansion Development thread?

 

When it's actually a thing, then yes.  Until then, we'll keep this general thread.

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"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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On 9/23/2019 at 2:14 PM, jmecklenborg said:

 

This is only going to be an incremental increase in the size of the center.  It's still going to be hosting youth gymnastics meets and cheer competitions every other weekend.  

 

 

 

 

Don't forget Magic: The Gathering tournaments

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I hate the idea of them blocking off Elm to expand the convention center.  Here is my idea.  Buy all the parking lots on Eggelston, Build a big new convention center there, under all the highway overpasses.  Then it is forced to be single story, just like they want.  The higways and ramps are never going away, and nothing else is likely to get built there.  It could stretch from 4th to Reedy.  Stick a new hotel tower on top of part of it, maybe say next to Columbia parkway.   I realize they would have to the close that little stub of 5th street and Sentinel Street, but since all that is on the other side is 471, I don't care as much about that.   Then it is also much closer to the Casino, which would probably be popular for some conventions.   Give the current convention center site to 3cdc, re-establish Plum, and let 3cdc re-invigorate the southwest quadrant of downtown.

 

I am sure you are probably not allowed to build directly under the highways, but hey, I can dream.

 

 

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According to the Bus Courier article this morning the Port is exploring four options:

a 600-room hotel

a 600-room hotel with convention center expansion

an 800-room hotel with convention center expansion

a 1,000-room hotel with convention center expansion.

 

So at least they are leaving the window open for not messing up Elm Street. 

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/27/port-accepts-1-3m-for-millennium-hotel-purchase.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

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3 hours ago, JoeHarmon said:

  Buy all the parking lots on Eggelston, Build a big new convention center there, under all the highway overpasses.  Then it is forced to be single story, just like they want.  The higways and ramps are never going away, and nothing else is likely to get built there.  It could stretch from 4th to Reedy.  Stick a new hotel tower on top of part of it, maybe say next to Columbia parkway.   I realize they would have to the close that little stub of 5th street and Sentinel Street, but since all that is on the other side is 471, I don't care as much about that.   Then it is also much closer to the Casino, which would probably be popular for some conventions.   

I had a very similar idea yesterday. Sometimes its better just say, this was a mistake and we need to just start over. And, if you really want to dream. take the convention center, the casino and a major new hotel then put them on the old hudephol site as the anchors for Queensgate. 

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Thing is, the point of being one story is to have easy access and a big uninterrupted flat floor plate.  Building under highway bridges would lead to random columns in the space, which isn't a deal-breaker, but also there's a good 20' of elevation change between 4th and Reedy, so it can't really be single-story on the exterior, and that would complicate access for loading and people. 

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22 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Surprise, Surprise, Stephanie Dumass votes against it and calls it the worst deal she has ever seen. She is completely over her head on this.

 

Of course you misspell her name on purpose because you have the maturity level of a 12 year old boy. 

 

Anyway, I 100% support the hotel redevelopment--but I have to admit she raised some valid concerns here. There's very little evidence that convention centers are the economic engine that they are commonly believed to be. I would think someone who is supposedly a fiscal conservative would be happy that she's raising the issues. 

 

Also, I didn't vote for Dumas in the primary and I probably still wouldn't vote for her in a Democratic primary, but she seems to have gotten the hang of the job after a shaky start. She brings a different perspective to the county and that's refreshing. 

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19 minutes ago, jjakucyk said:

Thing is, the point of being one story is to have easy access and a big uninterrupted flat floor plate.  Building under highway bridges would lead to random columns in the space, which isn't a deal-breaker, but also there's a good 20' of elevation change between 4th and Reedy, so it can't really be single-story on the exterior, and that would complicate access for loading and people. 

 

And that's exactly why a pedestrian "tunnel" is also not going to be built through the building. The whole point of eating Elm Street would be to have more continuous space, so they're not going to allow any kind of interruptions like that.

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9 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

And that's exactly why a pedestrian "tunnel" is also not going to be built through the building. The whole point of eating Race Street would be to have more continuous space, so they're not going to allow any kind of interruptions like that.

 

Elm* street not Race. Race is far busier than Elm.

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52 minutes ago, RJohnson said:

I had a very similar idea yesterday. Sometimes its better just say, this was a mistake and we need to just start over

 

Forming a bistate joint convention agency with NKY would enable retention of the existing Duke Energy Center and then expansion of the existing NKY center onto the IRS site.  

 

 

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Take a look at Kansas City- they were facing this same dilemma and decided to expand over the highway. For now, the Brent Spence uncertainty prevents expanding over 75, but if you take Kansas City as a model there's still a lot of options.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0956349,-94.5886676,3a,75y,27.27h,87.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srG5k-peZ9AcJQFcZ2TXVxQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

The ideal option is to connect the casino to a new convention center and arena. Between Eggelston and Liberty, along 71, there's plenty of room for continuous convention space. Conventions would be in walking distance of some of Cincinnati's best assets- OTR, Mt. Adams, the casino, etc. The whole development could even be built on top of a transit center with connections to a 71 light rail line, streetcars/BRT on Reading and Gilbert, and the subway. 

 

Of course, all of this is impossible for countless reasons, but it's fun to dream.

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On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 2:36 PM, DEPACincy said:

 

Of course you misspell her name on purpose because you have the maturity level of a 12 year old boy. 

 

Anyway, I 100% support the hotel redevelopment--but I have to admit she raised some valid concerns here. There's very little evidence that convention centers are the economic engine that they are commonly believed to be. I would think someone who is supposedly a fiscal conservative would be happy that she's raising the issues. 

 

Also, I didn't vote for Dumas in the primary and I probably still wouldn't vote for her in a Democratic primary, but she seems to have gotten the hang of the job after a shaky start. She brings a different perspective to the county and that's refreshing. 

I share your concern that the convention center is not the economic driver that some claim it is. However, it does not underscore the fact that she is in over her head on this deal. Stating we need to wait to do a thorough property inspection on the building and determine the condition of the roof and systems shows she does not know anything about the deal,  has no clue about this type of financing and development in general.  It is a tear down, you don't need to do that.

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On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 2:44 PM, RJohnson said:

Its a possible solution. Hotel overlooks city, casino grows, one floor continuous, and lose only one street. 

ConventioncenterNew2.jpg

While I think this would be a great option for the convention center, I have a feeling that it would be a challenge to turn over the convention business to a private casino who may not align with the rest of the hotel industry in the city.

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On 9/28/2019 at 9:59 AM, carnevalem said:

For now, the Brent Spence uncertainty prevents expanding over 75

It would be nice if preparing the highway spaghetti to be built over (or under, if necessary) were a part of the Brent Spence project.

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