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Cincinnati: Downtown: Convention Center / Hotel

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14 minutes ago, jmicha said:

Lolwut.

 

Vandercar is concerning. They inspire zero confidence.

Although the Millennium is a terrible hotel, it would have been nice to have an adaptive reuse of the existing structures, new hotels built on the vacant lot, and a westward expansion of the convention center. I feel like that would have added the most life to western downtown.

 

This current plan will remove a chunk of the skyline for a big question mark. That's concerning to me.

 

If the plan is to build an expanded convention center and new convention hotel with high room capacity i would have to imagine it would probably reach a similar if not a bit taller than the millenium.

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33 minutes ago, jmicha said:

Lolwut.

 

Vandercar is concerning. They inspire zero confidence.

Although the Millennium is a terrible hotel, it would have been nice to have an adaptive reuse of the existing structures, new hotels built on the vacant lot, and a westward expansion of the convention center. I feel like that would have added the most life to western downtown.

 

This current plan will remove a chunk of the skyline for a big question mark. That's concerning to me.

 

Agreed. Big problems and long delays are possible if/when they try to demolish the Millennium. What you suggest is both the path of least resistance, least traumatic to the urban fabric, and could provide the most benefit. 

Edited by thebillshark

www.cincinnatiideas.com

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I would guess this moves quickly. They will pull together a plan for the full development, build the new convention center hotel on the currently owned lot, demolish the Millenium, expand the convention center there and build another hotel on top

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Seems like this could be a big scam by Cranley to reward Vendercaar for his endless donations.  How much more will the city/port pay Vandercar for the Millennium property than he just paid for it.   

 

 

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7 hours ago, taestell said:

Well the problem with expanding east is that you completely kill the pedestrian activity on Elm. As soon as you make Elm an "underpass" below the convention center, people won't walk there. If you expand north across 6th (which is already a pedestrian dead zone) you keep the convention center blob more contained to the west side of downtown (east of Elm), and you have the potential to make Elm Street and Fifth Street into much more vibrant, pedestrian-oriented streets. Especially if 3CDC eventually builds a hotel or other mixed-use development on their south lot, bringing more pedestrian activity to Fourth and Fifth streets.

 

This can be done well... Philadelphia is a terrible example of a piss-stenched convention center underbelly. Look, instead, at the Washington State Convention Center. It does not suffer as the Philadelphia Convention Center does. https://goo.gl/maps/HM9UTELRSLaK5KFc7

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I'm a little lost with some of these reactions...

 

It's been well known that it's been the highest of priorities for Hamilton County and 3CDC to expand the convention center, to replace the terrible Millennium Hotel and expand the hotel capacity rate all while allowing guests to experience a quality convention hotel.

 

It sounds like everything is in place for all of this to happen in the very near future but instead it's full of alarm and concern....I know the developer draws concern, but it's pretty clear that this property will become part of the expanded Convention center and a connected convention hotel...So I'm not understanding the remaining concern? 

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3 hours ago, troeros said:

I'm a little lost with some of these reactions...

 

It's been well known that it's been the highest of priorities for Hamilton County and 3CDC to expand the convention center, to replace the terrible Millennium Hotel and expand the hotel capacity rate all while allowing guests to experience a quality convention hotel.

 

It sounds like everything is in place for all of this to happen in the very near future but instead it's full of alarm and concern....I know the developer draws concern, but it's pretty clear that this property will become part of the expanded Convention center and a connected convention hotel...So I'm not understanding the remaining concern? 

Vandercar development should never be trust. That guy is a snake in the grass. He will get the hotel then next thing you know drag his feet and expect major subsides and breaks from all government entities. Ten year later hotel is still standing in even worse condition and everyone is pointing fingers at each other because the county got in bed with a developer that has a bad track record. Not a big fan of 3CDC or Steve Leeper, but he seems to always come through on getting s*** done.

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1 hour ago, troeros said:

It sounds like everything is in place for all of this to happen in the very near future but instead it's full of alarm and concern

 

Virtually no information is actually known about what Vandercar and Hamilton County want to do. That is the cause of the concern.

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28 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

Virtually no information is actually known about what Vandercar and Hamilton County want to do. That is the cause of the concern.

 

We don't even know if it's vandercar... All that has been reported has been purely based off unconfirmed reports in the biz journal article and in the enquirer article..

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5 hours ago, jmicha said:

Lolwut.

 

Vandercar is concerning. They inspire zero confidence.

Although the Millennium is a terrible hotel, it would have been nice to have an adaptive reuse of the existing structures, new hotels built on the vacant lot, and a westward expansion of the convention center. I feel like that would have added the most life to western downtown.

 

This current plan will remove a chunk of the skyline for a big question mark. That's concerning to me.

I sort of liked the idea of building a world class hotel to the South of the Convention center and then letting the Millenium still operate as a mid priced downtown option.


As a convention hotel, it is a dump. However, as a mid priced downtown hotel, it would serve that market fine in its present condition.

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If everything goes through (the sale) can the city council stop the demolition?  LI do not understand why they would want to tear down the millenium and not try to but the parcel of land that 3CDC owns. 

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49 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

If everything goes through (the sale) can the city council stop the demolition?  LI do not understand why they would want to tear down the millenium and not try to but the parcel of land that 3CDC owns. 

Don't worry, Seelbach will seek to declare it a historic property so it cant be torn down

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13 hours ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

 

This can be done well... Philadelphia is a terrible example of a piss-stenched convention center underbelly. Look, instead, at the Washington State Convention Center. It does not suffer as the Philadelphia Convention Center does. https://goo.gl/maps/HM9UTELRSLaK5KFc7

THIS is the model we should be pursuing!

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9 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

If everything goes through (the sale) can the city council stop the demolition?  LI do not understand why they would want to tear down the millenium and not try to but the parcel of land that 3CDC owns. 

 

Im fairly certain that Hamilton County, 3CDC, Port Authority and Vandercar are all coming up with a master plan for both sites.

 

The success of the convention center and of a convention center hotel/hotels is pretty high priority for these groups.

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14 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Im fairly certain that Hamilton County, 3CDC, Port Authority and Vandercar are all coming up with a master plan for both sites.

 

The success of the convention center and of a convention center hotel/hotels is pretty high priority for these groups.

 

Just remember that Vandercar also came up with the plan for Oakley Station (they even named a street after themselves).  

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I find it hard to get excited about this news. Under contract is not "signed, sealed and delivered" so I'm not holding my breath. The owners of the Millennium have been wily in the past so I wouldn't put it past them to ghost at the last minute or screw up the deal.

 

Vandercar has a pretty terrible record as an urban developer but they are a partner and developer for the Summit Park mixed-use at Blue Ash. I would group them with the other local developers that are trying to do urban but need coaxing to be pushed to build better. The development community for the most part is starting to get it, but they still want to do it on the cheap. 

 

If the deal for the Millennium goes through, they will need help and they will need to be challenged to design better. We can dream about skyline altering, which I am sure this one is, but the real focus needs to be on how this meets the street.


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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16 hours ago, IAGuy39 said:

I would guess this moves quickly. They will pull together a plan for the full development, build the new convention center hotel on the currently owned lot, demolish the Millenium, expand the convention center there and build another hotel on top

Maybe the RFP was pulled because they may need to increase the room count, as it is no guarantee that a new hotel is built on the Millenium site. Maybe 84.51 expands over the convention center so 3CDC can keep their garage?

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16 minutes ago, CincyIntheKnow said:

Maybe 84.51 expands over the convention center so 3CDC can keep their garage?

 

Yeah, that thought crossed my mind as well. 3CDC is working to find 84.51 additional office space somewhere downtown. If all of the parties came to the table, it would make a lot of sense for a new hotel to be built on the 3CDC south lot, then the Millennium demolished, then the 84.51 building expanded to occupy the whole block. Not sure which direction the convention center expansion would go in this scenario.

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personally, going North would be the only way to expand, you don't lose any street presence since that area is a cavern anyway. Tunnel under to the highway. Close off the entrance to Central Ave on that side and make that way the entrance to 75. tear down the garage and tear down the Pure Romance building, expand the convention center that way.

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11 minutes ago, jmblec2 said:

how much bigger does the convention area need to be to start competing for the larger events?  

 

Kind of hard to answer because every event wants something slightly different so I guess it mostly on who Cincinnati wants to compete with regionally or nationally for events. I would say best guess though, to compete for the larger events to go to other regional cities, Cincinnati would need to double the current convention center size and hotel offerings. 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, CincyIntheKnow said:

Maybe the RFP was pulled because they may need to increase the room count, as it is no guarantee that a new hotel is built on the Millenium site. Maybe 84.51 expands over the convention center so 3CDC can keep their garage?

 

 

You guys are forgetting about Fountain Place, I think that project is signed, sealed and will be delivered no later than next month. It’s seems 84.51/ Kroger is the office user there according to rumors which would take them out of the discussion on the millennium site.

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5 minutes ago, 646empire said:

 

 

You guys are forgetting about Fountain Place, I think that project is signed, sealed and will be delivered no later than next month. It’s seems 84.51/ Kroger is the office user there according to rumors which would take them out of the discussion on the millennium site.

 

How many office workers can fit in fountain place? I know 84.51 is expanding quite significantly so I'm curious if fountain place can't fulfill the growth that 84.51 is seeking

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24 minutes ago, jmblec2 said:

how much bigger does the convention area need to be to start competing for the larger events?  

 

There need to be more truck dock doors to do more exhibition space.  It is absurd how much space is necessary for all of the trucks:

https://www.nashvillemusiccitycenter.com/floorplans/floor-3/level-3-exhibit-hall

 

So when we say we're building a convention center, a quarter of it is just enclosed parkingfor semi trailers. 

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Oh yeah, the Cincinnati loading dock is very old-fashioned. Any convention center loading dock from before the mid-'90s is equivalent to a highway designed in 1930s. There's so many truckers today that never ever wanted to do that for a living but had to due to the unlimited demand that just aren't good. Loading docks need to be extra Duplo today.

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3 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

How many office workers can fit in fountain place? I know 84.51 is expanding quite significantly so I'm curious if fountain place can't fulfill the growth that 84.51 is seeking

 

 

Hard to say and depends on the type of job they want to place in the building. I believe they could put quite a lot. It’s easy to forget that Macy’s wasn’t even using all of its 3rd floor when it was open. Plus I would assume the office user would extend all the way over into the old palomino restaurant on the vine street side to get those fountain square views?

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1 hour ago, DevolsDance said:

Kind of hard to answer because every event wants something slightly different so I guess it mostly on who Cincinnati wants to compete with regionally or nationally for events. I would say best guess though, to compete for the larger events to go to other regional cities, Cincinnati would need to double the current convention center size and hotel offerings. 

 

If we are looking to compete with Indy or Nashville for major nationwide conventions, I highly doubt we can do that given the constraints of the current set-up. 

 

I don't know much about conventions, but it would be prudent during this expansion to try and develop with a niche or two in mind, something those other two can't offer and lock it in that way.

 

If we actually worked as a cohesive region, the best idea would be to expand the Covington convention center into the IRS lot, at which point, we could create a better convention center than Indy or Nashville, but it is KY, so nah.

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9 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

 

If we are looking to compete with Indy or Nashville for major nationwide conventions, I highly doubt we can do that given the constraints of the current set-up. 

 

I don't know much about conventions, but it would be prudent during this expansion to try and develop with a niche or two in mind, something those other two can't offer and lock it in that way.

 

If we actually worked as a cohesive region, the best idea would be to expand the Covington convention center into the IRS lot, at which point, we could create a better convention center than Indy or Nashville, but it is KY, so nah.

 

Regional Convention Center breakdown 

 

Chicago* - 1.2 million sq/ft contiguous exhibit space

Indianapolis* - 566,000 sq/ft contiguous exhibit space

Columbus* - 373,000 sq/ft contiguous exhibit space

Nashville - 353,000 sq/ft contiguous exhibit space

Cleveland - 225,000 sq/ft contiguous exhibit space

Louisville - 200,000 sq/ft contiguous exhibit space

Cincinnati - 195,000 sq/ft contiguous exhibit space 

 

* Indicates Convention Centers with connected 1,000+ room hotel

 

I also think the IRS site is the best choice because it gives the space and is a clean slate, but yeah, Kentucky. 

 

 

 

 

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In a perfect world we would just build a giant new Greater Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky Convention Center on the IRS site. There is a ton of space there, so you can build a massive, continuous show floor without having to demolish any historic structures or mess up the street grid any more than it already is. Expand the Southbank Shuttle into something more frequent with higher capacity to connect conventioneers with Downtown Cincinnati, Mainstrasse, Newport, etc. Demolish the existing Duke Energy Center, reconnect Plum Street, and fill in those blocks with new mixed-use infill.

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4 minutes ago, taestell said:

In a perfect world we would just build a giant new Greater Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky Convention Center on the IRS site. There is a ton of space there, so you can build a massive, continuous show floor without having to demolish any historic structures or mess up the street grid any more than it already is. Expand the Southbank Shuttle into something more frequent with higher capacity to connect conventioneers with Downtown Cincinnati, Mainstrasse, Newport, etc. Demolish the existing Duke Energy Center, reconnect Plum Street, and fill in those block with new mixed-use infill.

 

The amount of heads that would roll if this ever happened. Truly showing we arent a region but secular areas the way politicians work around here. 

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7 minutes ago, taestell said:

In a perfect world...

 

...we'd build a new convention center over the spaghetti bowl of I-75, fronting onto Central Avenue and with all the loading docks and crap on the Queensgate side. 

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I think the future will regret tearing this building down and not renovating or restoring it. I say this, first, as someone who thinks architecture tells a story of humanity, second, not as a preservationist but as an environmentalist. It is incredibly wasteful to tear down a 51 year old building.

image.thumb.png.fe615bf0885470b16f18655513d407af.png

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13 minutes ago, taestell said:

In a perfect world we would just build a giant new Greater Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky Convention Center on the IRS site. There is a ton of space there, so you can build a massive, continuous show floor without having to demolish any historic structures or mess up the street grid any more than it already is. Expand the Southbank Shuttle into something more frequent with higher capacity to connect conventioneers with Downtown Cincinnati, Mainstrasse, Newport, etc. Demolish the existing Duke Energy Center, reconnect Plum Street, and fill in those block with new mixed-use infill.

 

 

Not a chance this will ever happen. It would cost 1 Billion+ dollars or so to build a new convention center from scratch and another 250+ Million dollars to build a convention center hotel (the new center would have to have at least 1 large hotel connected at the IRS site) therefore KY can’t pay that price tag by itself and would require Cincinnati, Hamilton County, State of Ohio ETC to pour hundreds of millions of dollars into a building that’s in a entirely different state and that they wouldn’t even own or get tax dollars from. All the while Downtown Cincinnati Hotels freak out over the convention center moving across the river.

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20 minutes ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

I think the future will regret tearing this building down and not renovating or restoring it. I say this, first, as someone who thinks architecture tells a story of humanity, second, not as a preservationist but as an environmentalist. It is incredibly wasteful to tear down a 51 year old building.

I completely agree with this. A new skin and some paint would do wonders. a new skin could cover the edge slab condition helping the insulation and would make the building look brand new. The floor to floor heights aren't terrible for hotel space. If nothing else it would save tons of waste on demolition, concrete and steel. I hate how much waste is construction and how flippantly people are willing to demolish buildings that took tons of time, money and materials to construct.

 

image.png.a3f7e3a82ddeb31760fa91e25781d824.png

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1 hour ago, 646empire said:

 

 

Not a chance this will ever happen. It would cost 1 Billion+ dollars or so to build a new convention center from scratch and another 250+ Million dollars to build a convention center hotel (the new center would have to have at least 1 large hotel connected at the IRS site) therefore KY can’t pay that price tag by itself and would require Cincinnati, Hamilton County, State of Ohio ETC to pour hundreds of millions of dollars into a building that’s in a entirely different state and that they wouldn’t even own or get tax dollars from. All the while Downtown Cincinnati Hotels freak out over the convention center moving across the river.

 

They would have to form a bistate agency through an act of Congress (like the Port Authority of NY/NJ) that would be able to sell bonds and collect hotel taxes from both sides of the river.  

 

Also, there is no reason why the Duke Energy Center couldn't remain as-is in such a scenario.  Nashville has the huge Opryland Hotel convention space along with the huge new downtown convention center.  They had a smaller downtown convention center from the 1980s (probably smaller than the Duke Energy Center is now) and that was torn down about 4 years ago and it's currently the site of a big 2-tower development.  But that piece of land was much more central (right on Broadway) as compared to the Duke Energy Center.  

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, 646empire said:

 

 

Not a chance this will ever happen. It would cost 1 Billion+ dollars or so to build a new convention center from scratch and another 250+ Million dollars to build a convention center hotel (the new center would have to have at least 1 large hotel connected at the IRS site) therefore KY can’t pay that price tag by itself and would require Cincinnati, Hamilton County, State of Ohio ETC to pour hundreds of millions of dollars into a building that’s in a entirely different state and that they wouldn’t even own or get tax dollars from. All the while Downtown Cincinnati Hotels freak out over the convention center moving across the river.

 The floor height is an issue as the real problem it creates is with the bathrooms and plumbing. You cant quite build the modern bathroom people want now a days.

 

The hotel reminds me a lot of the SHeraton in downtown Indy near Monument Circle. They are similar aged hotels. On the outside it looks fine, but you go inside, and there are so many structural limitations that keep it from really being a much more modern hotel. If you are going to build a world class convention hotel, you need to do it right. Otherwise, you are just putting lipstick on a pig. New skin is an upgrade but will never make it a world class hotel.

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19 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Otherwise, you are just putting lipstick on a pig. New skin is an upgrade but will never make it a world class hotel.

Agreed, but this is me assuming that it stays and becomes a 'good' hotel while a new fancier Conrad, JW or something else gets built brand new. I just don't like the idea of demolishing buildings, or the even the idea of removing 800 rooms from the market for 2+ years. If we build the new hotel and then renovate Millennium after it opens, we will never be down the 800 rooms and it will all just be an add. 

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On 4/25/2019 at 7:50 PM, SleepyLeroy said:

For those that don't remember, this was a floated 'what if' render not too long ago where part of the front building was demolished and the remaining reclad and repurposed. If the bones are good, it can easily be turned into almost anything with enough money. image.thumb.png.2970f04c4ce375a7532b630a82cd1181.png

Remember this? Anyone?

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“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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18 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

Agreed, but this is me assuming that it stays and becomes a 'good' hotel while a new fancier Conrad, JW or something else gets built brand new. I just don't like the idea of demolishing buildings, or the even the idea of removing 800 rooms from the market for 2+ years. If we build the new hotel and then renovate Millennium after it opens, we will never be down the 800 rooms and it will all just be an add. 

I would tear down the smaller tower. I think that is in worse shape than the bigger tower. Build a new 600-800 room hotel on the other site. Remodel the taller tower. add a ballroom /meeting space over the smaller tower footprint.

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