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Cincinnati: Downtown: Convention Center / Hotel

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15 hours ago, Ram23 said:

^ That's a shame. I thought most of the city was in agreement that the Millennium is a massive liability. It seems like something the mayor and council and urbanites alike could all agree on.

 

It should be, but we all know what the vote was actually about.

 

The vote was not about the condition of the Millennium. It was about the creation of a new unaccountable task force led by Amy Murray. This project, like every other project in the city, should interface with a council committee, not a special "task force".

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14 hours ago, troeros said:

Surprisingly I've never been to the convention center before until today. Here are my observations...

 

1. The convention center looks sooo dated. Literally feels like 1980s inside. Desperately need a remodel. Even the extior looks drab and boring. So many cities have more up-to-date convention centers. Cincy shouldn't be lagging this far behind in that area.

 

2. The Millennium Hotel is an ugly hotel building. Please demolish it. 

 

3. The Hyatt that's connected to Saks... Again such drab 80s architecture. Just ughhhhhhh

 

4. In fact the immediate area around the convention center is so ugly. Parking garages galore..not even the good looking kind, just straight up garages that feel like they are crumbling on the inside. Then there are the immediate small story office parks leased by pure romance and such. Who in the hell thought this was a good idea? Looks like a building designed for west Chester and planted in the urban core!

 

4. Everything is so dead around the convention center. It doesn't make sense! You have so many events that are bringing tourists! Why isn't there retail, cafes, resturaunts, etc? There is so much pedestrian traffic coming in an out of the hotels that the city can't even attract a damn Starbucks surrounding the convention center?

 

 

In the end, this whole stretch needs massive urban renewal and revisioning. There should be a ton of mixed use commercial/residential in place of those garages at the very least.

Convention center isn't terrible yes it's post modern exterior but it's definitely not the worst in comparable cities. 

The Millennium complex has a ton of potential and demo/rebuild would be well outside ROI for a city our size.

The Hyatt has done amazing steps the past couple years of fully remodeling the property and has become the premier large hotel in the city.

Be happy those ugly parking garages are around it right now, that is the area where to convention center will expand and they aren't landlocked in and unable to enlarge if they want to.

Pure Romance building use to be Delta's largest call center in the nation so it was a boon in the 90s for the city to get that investment downtown when built. 

The only major eye sores in the convention center area is Convention place complex SW corner of Fifth and Elm, and the old racquetball complex at the NE corner of Sixth and Elm.

I think you need to realize our size of convention center only commands certain conventions at the moment and the push for investment around the area isn't attractive yet. That doesn't mean the CVB and Port aren't working on new hotel and plans for convention center expansion. Because those are both in the works.

 

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13 hours ago, taestell said:

 

The vote was not about the condition of the Millennium. It was about the creation of a new unaccountable task force led by Amy Murray. This project, like every other project in the city, should interface with a council committee, not a special "task force".

 

There are plenty of task forces for project specific work like this. There's one for the Court Street pedestrian conversion, for example. This vote wasn't about the task force it was about who was on the task force.

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So the city has filed a lawsuit claiming the Terrace Plaza is a public nuisance and has now filed a separate nuisance lawsuit over the Millennium Hotel, just a week after proposing a new "task force" to interface with the Millennium's owners. And at the same time David Mann is pushing forward a new ordinance to tax AirBNBs. Something is clearly going on behind the scenes with regards to the construction of a new convention center hotel and/or the redevelopment of those two older hotels, and the developers are pulling the strings of the mayor and council. The Business Courier notes that a "local entity is considering an investment in the [Millennium] hotel" but doesn't give more details than that.

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26 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

It's expansion space for the convention center to keep a continuous rectangular convention floor. Hotel goes on the block south of convention center, on fifth between Plum and Elm

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2 hours ago, savadams13 said:

It's expansion space for the convention center to keep a continuous rectangular convention floor. Hotel goes on the block south of convention center, on fifth between Plum and Elm

 

Any clue or speculation towards what brand the new convention center hotel might be?

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14 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Any clue or speculation towards what brand the new convention center hotel might be?

Omni is being the most aggressive of major hotel chains building convention center hotels (Louisville, OKC)  I doubt Marriott and Hilton covering the city would add an additional property. Loews and Intercontinental would be the other two brands with interest in large room convention properties

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4 hours ago, savadams13 said:

It's expansion space for the convention center to keep a continuous rectangular convention floor. Hotel goes on the block south of convention center, on fifth between Plum and Elm

 

So Sixth street essentially gets "capped" by the expansion from Central Avenue to Elm Street? That's already the most pedestrian-hostile section of our CBD, might as well go all in...

 

None of the hotel chains have a "signature" brand hotel here (JW Marriott, Conrad, Park Hyatt), so that could be a logical choice for a convention center hotel.

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39 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I thought the convention hotel was supposed to be on the 5th street lot the Port just bought

Yes that's on fifth Street between Plum and Elm.

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1 hour ago, taestell said:

 

So Sixth street essentially gets "capped" by the expansion from Central Avenue to Elm Street? That's already the most pedestrian-hostile section of our CBD, might as well go all in...

 

None of the hotel chains have a "signature" brand hotel here (JW Marriott, Conrad, Park Hyatt), so that could be a logical choice for a convention center hotel.

Yeah the original idea was to go west but the interstate realignment is probably decades off. It's not great idea going across Sixth street but brings the convention center layout design similar to Louisville who moved the main convention floor to second floor and expanded it over a couple streets and city blocks

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I hate the convention center.  It kills that whole area.  In my ideal world they would tear down the current one, reconnect Plum, let 3CDC do their thing to reinvigorate the area.  Then partner with the casino, add another floor to the casino which would be the convention center.  Then at least we could have only one giant ugly building that would be 2 stories, instead of 2 giant ugly 1 story buildings.  

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6th st between Elm and Central is completely dead at street level since the convention center has no entrances and the north side of the street is all parking garages. Philadelphia's convention center has a few caps (over 12th and 13th streets). The design mostly works out, but it creates challenges since the covered streets end up being defacto homeless shelters: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9547205,-75.1593037,3a,40.7y,243.46h,89.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXbgSijP3jyuu6Br1nf7a7g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

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very reliable source told me today that they have been hired to be part of the team the will be demolishing the Millennium Hotel. Apparently, the same company that demo'd the old Milacron site in Oakley will be demolishing the hotel. I tried to get more details, but interesting news to hear. 

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41 minutes ago, CincyPhan said:

very reliable source told me today that they have been hired to be part of the team the will be demolishing the Millennium Hotel. Apparently, the same company that demo'd the old Milacron site in Oakley will be demolishing the hotel. I tried to get more details, but interesting news to hear. 

 

Interesting to hear. 

 

Makes me wonder if that will be home to a new hotel site (because I originally thought that 3cdc and the port were targeting the large surface lot next to the center), or if this will be some time of mixed use development?

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3 minutes ago, JohnClevesSymmes said:

Are you sure it isn't merely selective interior demolition?

I asked that actually. They said it seems to be for the entire building merely because there are pretty significant environmental folks involved as well. Still not sure  - I'll keep digging. 🙂

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39 minutes ago, CincyPhan said:

I asked that actually. They said it seems to be for the entire building merely because there are pretty significant environmental folks involved as well. Still not sure  - I'll keep digging. 🙂

 

Curious, I am very intrigued by this. I think the hotel needs a refresh or new operator but I'd kind of hate to see two high-rises come down in the CBD. 

I wonder how far hotels book out rooms? Seems demolition within the coming year or two could interfere with current reservations at all and currently scheduled expos.

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2 minutes ago, DevolsDance said:

 

Curious, I am very intrigued by this. I think the hotel needs a refresh or new operator but I'd kind of hate to see two high-rises come down in the CBD. 

I wonder how far hotels book out rooms? Seems demolition within the coming year or two could interfere with current reservations at all and currently scheduled expos.

 

I have to imagine that lot would be redeveloped into another high rise.

 

The Millennium is an outdated eye sore and would love a modern glass tower to take over that real estate. 

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23 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

I have to imagine that lot would be redeveloped into another high rise.

 

The Millennium is an outdated eye sore and would love a modern glass tower to take over that real estate. 

 

This. I'll go one further though. I'd rather have a decently attractive mid-rise or two than the ugly high-rise Millennium. It's very prominent from certain angles and is one of the ugliest buildings anywhere. 

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The owner has time and time again refused to make major renovations to the building. I would be surprised if the current owner would tare the building down and build a new hotel, at a huge cost. So the building would need to be sold. Is there a record of sale? Seems to good to be true. 

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I’d think they would rather keep the millenium until a new convention hotel was built. I wouldn’t think they would tear it down just to build another convention hotel in its place, Sure the millenium is a pretty crappy hotel, but we’d prolly lose a lot of conventions for the next couple of years if they just decided to tear it down without another connecting hotel being built. Id hate to see a decently prominent building downtown be demolished and I’d much rather see one be built in the parking lot across the street and the millenium renovated into apartments/hotel. 

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The owners of the millennium sure aren't going to tear down the hotel and for the city/county to legally be allowed to do this they would have to purchase it.  I know the government here is working on trying to figure out a solution for this dump of a hotel and even just a couple weeks ago they talked about putting a committee/task force together on this topic.  Because of that I doubt this demo rumor is true.  

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There's a new (as of 4/25/2019) permit that has been submitted, though not approved, for the Millenium for alterations - not demolition. Could certainly be to address some of the code violations at the Bronze Ballroom the city hit them with.

Edited by brian korte
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7 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

The owners of the millennium sure aren't going to tear down the hotel and for the city/county to legally be allowed to do this they would have to purchase it.

 

With the city declaring the Millennium Hotel a "public nuisance" a few weeks ago, it seems like they are already lining up the dominos.

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10 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

With the city declaring the Millennium Hotel a "public nuisance" a few weeks ago, it seems like they are already lining up the dominos.

 

This reminds me of my time in Knoxville, and the night when a city-owned bulldozer collided with a disputed historic building while doing some "landscaping".  

 

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Forgive me in advance if I am missing something here, but just because a building looks dated and is a bit of an eyesore does not mean you should demolish it and erect another building in its place. I hope this news isn't true because it would be wasteful beyond belief. The carbon footprint alone makes me want to rip my hair out.

 

3 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

from certain angles and is one of the ugliest buildings anywhere. 

 

Assuming the Millenium Hotel is still a stable structure, there is so much that can be done design-wise to make it more appealing. Big blank walls downtown = every muralist's wet dream. There is also the possibility of AV installations (huge publicity with convention goers). Most buildings like this can even have entire walls ripped out and replaced with vision glass.

 

3 hours ago, troeros said:

I have to imagine that lot would be redeveloped into another high rise.

 

The Millennium is an outdated eye sore and would love a modern glass tower to take over that real estate. 

 

Recladding the building is very doable. It is already a high-rise, and it would give it that "modern glass tower" look that will be out of style in 20 years and you'll once again be calling for its demolition.

 

To make matters even worse, we are talking about putting another hotel in a building that is already a hotel? Can the rooms really not be retrofitted? There is also a huge empty surface lot basically right across the damn street! Users on this forum need to seriously consider the ramifications of demolishing an entire skyscraper when there are already way too many gaping holes in our urban fabric.

 

 I still feel like I am missing something.... I truly hope there is something massive preventing it from being renovated, otherwise this demolition would be a catastrophe for the environment and the city itself. I'm done ranting, for now...

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22 minutes ago, Largue said:

Recladding the building is very doable. It is already a high-rise, and it would give it that "modern glass tower" look that will be out of style in 20 years and you'll once again be calling for its demolition.

There are glass buildings that are 20 years old and still look great. So no.

22 minutes ago, Largue said:

still feel like I am missing something.... I truly hope there is something massive preventing it from being renovated, otherwise this demolition would be a catastrophe for the environment and the city itself. I'm done ranting, for now...

Yes you are missing something. The owner refuses to put any money into rehabbing the building and bringing it up to today's standards.

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For those that don't remember, this was a floated 'what if' render not too long ago where part of the front building was demolished and the remaining reclad and repurposed. If the bones are good, it can easily be turned into almost anything with enough money. image.thumb.png.2970f04c4ce375a7532b630a82cd1181.png

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4 minutes ago, jmblec2 said:

Yes you are missing something. The owner refuses to put any money into rehabbing the building and bringing it up to today's standards.

 

People already mentioned this, so no it was not missed... If there isn't enough money to renovate, how would there be enough money to demo and rebuild?

 

4 minutes ago, SleepyLeroy said:

For those that don't remember, this was a floated 'what if' render not too long ago where part of the front building was demolished and the remaining reclad and repurposed. If the bones are good, it can easily be turned into almost anything with enough money.

 

I have not seen this. It is along the lines of what I was thinking.

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2 hours ago, Largue said:

 

People already mentioned this, so no it was not missed... If there isn't enough money to renovate, how would there be enough money to demo and rebuild?

 

 

I have not seen this. It is along the lines of what I was thinking.

 

Rehab financing versus new construction financing are completely different animals, be it residential or commercial. 

 

 

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That's why academic buildings from the '70s are "too old" meanwhile the most respected schools teach students in buildings that were built when most of this country was controlled by the French and Mexicans.

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15 hours ago, Largue said:

Forgive me in advance if I am missing something here, but just because a building looks dated and is a bit of an eyesore does not mean you should demolish it and erect another building in its place. I hope this news isn't true because it would be wasteful beyond belief. The carbon footprint alone makes me want to rip my hair out.

 

 

Assuming the Millenium Hotel is still a stable structure, there is so much that can be done design-wise to make it more appealing. Big blank walls downtown = every muralist's wet dream. There is also the possibility of AV installations (huge publicity with convention goers). Most buildings like this can even have entire walls ripped out and replaced with vision glass.

 

 

Recladding the building is very doable. It is already a high-rise, and it would give it that "modern glass tower" look that will be out of style in 20 years and you'll once again be calling for its demolition.

 

To make matters even worse, we are talking about putting another hotel in a building that is already a hotel? Can the rooms really not be retrofitted? There is also a huge empty surface lot basically right across the damn street! Users on this forum need to seriously consider the ramifications of demolishing an entire skyscraper when there are already way too many gaping holes in our urban fabric.

 

 I still feel like I am missing something.... I truly hope there is something massive preventing it from being renovated, otherwise this demolition would be a catastrophe for the environment and the city itself. I'm done ranting, for now...

 

No, you're not wrong. I was a little too hasty in saying it should be demolished. You're right that it could be re-clad and become a very nice looking building. I'm all for re-purposing the existing structure if it is possible. 

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2 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

That's why academic buildings from the '70s are "too old" meanwhile the most respected schools teach students in buildings that were built when most of this country was controlled by the French and Mexicans.

 

A new build is a much shinier resume line for an academic administrator than a sensible rehab.  

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The biggest issues for the Millennium property are the room sizes and bathroom sizes in the property. The South tower which was the original hotel building, has low ceiling heights, makes it difficult for retrofit on MEP. Many of the rooms and bathrooms on the South tower are on the small side so higher end amenities, actual closets, and furniture pieces become hard to work into the rooms. The North tower being newer of the two has larger bedroom areas, and closets, but the bathrooms are really small and would be a major retrofit headache. Both buildings need new glazing, and the PTAC units should be replaced with more modern CTAC units to help reduce sound and make more efficient use of either cool or heat in the rooms. The public spaces are large and can easily be redone and reworked into a new look. Its just the guest room towers might be more hassle to retrofit then partial tear down or full tear down. 

 

However no one has discussed demo of the Millennium. The only thing mayor Napoleon wants to have ready to go is removal of the skywalk to the convention center. The Port, CVB, and 3CDC are all discussing new hotel at Fifth and Elm, and thats the major focus just ignoring the Millennium. 

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I think the city should demo the skywalk to Millenium asap, and rebuild the skywalk that connects to Hyatt (and also links to Hilton and Westin) to make it an all-weather skywalk. After that work is done, remove any mention of Millenium on any official website, convention information, vistor's bureau, signage, etc. Then simply wait for the Millenium to die and buy it and rehab it/demo it. 

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At least close the existing skywalk to the Convention Center.  That would take absolutely $0 to do.  Not sure why that hasn't been done yet.


"Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." - Warren Buffett 

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You actually do want skywalks near convention centers or you'll lose shows when exhibitors and their sales literature get rained on on the way to the show.

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3 hours ago, taestell said:

Like I said...it's no coincidence that two downtown hotel buildings were declared a "public nuisance" just a few weeks ago...

 

 

 

 

The RFP has been released quietly to a number of larger hospitality groups. There is a huge amount of interest. Cant go into to many details, but we will probably see something of similar height to the Hyatt or Hilton if it stays around 800 guestrooms. 

Edited by savadams13
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20 minutes ago, savadams13 said:

 

 

The RFP has been released quietly to a number of larger hospitality groups. There is a huge amount of interest. Cant go into to many details, but we will probably see something of similar height to the Hyatt or Hilton if it stays around 600 guestrooms. 

 

What potential height are we looking at? Could this possibly alter the skyline. 

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Why would they only do 600 rooms?  For a new convention center hotel I would think they'd do over 1,000 rooms. 

Edited by Cincy513
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2 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Why would they only do 600 rooms?  For a new convention center hotel I would think they'd do over 1,000 rooms. 

 

More rooms means more dough that would need to be ponied up by the City, 3CDC, etc. in order to build more. 

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^ The new convention hotel in Cleveland is about 600 rooms, I think. Sounds like that'd be about right for Cincinnati, too.

 

Given the spacial limitations of the Convention Center, I think it'd be cool if most of the ground floor of the new hotel could be convention space, with the hotel occupying a corner or portion of the street level space to activate it a bit. It would kill two birds with one stone, and might force the hotel to be built a little taller than if it had the whole site to work with.

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Getting ahead of myself certainly, but the downtown Hyatt is 23 stories with 491 rooms. Extrapolating from that on a lot around the same size, a new hotel of 600 rooms would be around 28 floors, or perhaps just slightly taller than the Enquirer building.

 

Edit: Leeper now says 800 rooms. 

Edited by Pdrome513

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6 minutes ago, edale said:

^ The new convention hotel in Cleveland is about 600 rooms, I think. Sounds like that'd be about right for Cincinnati, too.

 

Given the spacial limitations of the Convention Center, I think it'd be cool if most of the ground floor of the new hotel could be convention space, with the hotel occupying a corner or portion of the street level space to activate it a bit. It would kill two birds with one stone, and might force the hotel to be built a little taller than if it had the whole site to work with.

 

You will definitely see more modern break out spaces and probably another large ballroom. But an actual extension of the convention center isnt practical enough since convention centers want floor plates to be open and square. If it went across the street it would be an odd "dog leg space".  Plus our main convention floor is still at street level unlike Louisville that's at Second floor. 

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Enquirer is 25/312'. 800 rooms? To me that says it will have an ell or two towers and be shorter. Was hoping for something like the Omni in Louisville (600/30/370') or JW Marriott in Indy (1005/34/376'). Both comparable in height to the Netherland.

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