Cincinnati: Downtown: Convention Center / Hotel

[Guest jmecklenborg]

3 hours ago, Robuu said:

It would be nice if preparing the highway spaghetti to be built over (or under, if necessary) were a part of the Brent Spence project.

 

 

Back when Nick Vehr was running the Cincinnati 2012 Olympic bid, there were many drawings of a gigantic convention center expansion over the highway that included an arena.  So all of the ideas people are throwing out here have already been suggested and studied 15+ years ago.  

 

 

 

 

[RJohnson]

Ryota Yamagata

4 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

While I think this would be a great option for the convention center, I have a feeling that it would be a challenge to turn over the convention business to a private casino who may not align with the rest of the hotel industry in the city.

I wouldn't know a thing about challenges and alignment, but if the criteria for a one floor convention center, with a convention hotel and a connection with the casino is the question, then this is a possible answer. I have read the comments of this blog and these are the reasons why, we can't do this and we can't do that. Like congress our leaders can't make decisions. the old line, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs seems apropos. If you go to a major city for a convention and there other things going on in that city, then public and private transportation are there to help. Cincinnati has a very walkable city. The walking and taxis and a streetcar line with stops at the Hyatt and Omni Netherland and other hotels would bring dollars and make sense. Right now there is no reason to use the streetcar, but if a second line connects the Museum Center area (queensgate) with the Casino then visitors will have a reason to use the streetcar. 

[Ucgrad2015]

Local 12 is reporting that the deal will be done tomorrow and the hotel will be coming down soon. Couple of thoughts about this. Is there a good reason why they choose to use the millenium site and not the plum site? I hope the hotel is also at least as high as the millenium is (the renderings make it seem like it will be taller). I hope after it is demolished that it will switch gears quickly and not just be an empty lot for years.

[troeros]

7 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

Local 12 is reporting that the deal will be done tomorrow and the hotel will be coming down soon. Couple of thoughts about this. Is there a good reason why they choose to use the millenium site and not the plum site? I hope the hotel is also at least as high as the millenium is (the renderings make it seem like it will be taller). I hope after it is demolished that it will switch gears quickly and not just be an empty lot for years.

 

I've heard that 3cdc/,the county/city are pretty keen on wanting to create more vibrancy around the convention hotel because hoe strong of an entry gate for many outside tourists coming to Cincy for the first time and they aren't happy with the current first impressions that it gives of the city. 

 

[Rabbit Hash]

1 hour ago, troeros said:

 

I've heard that 3cdc/,the county/city are pretty keen on wanting to create more vibrancy around the convention hotel because hoe strong of an entry gate for many outside tourists coming to Cincy for the first time and they aren't happy with the current first impressions that it gives of the city. 

 

 

Yes and yes. That Fifth Street gateway to CBD from both NB and SB I-75 is a total meh. Give credit, the CINCINNATI sign has really become middling iconic but the underutilized historic on the right that have missing teeth and the expansive Plum lot along with the convention center on the left...not a good look for visitors entering.

 

[SleepyLeroy]

On 9/30/2019 at 1:40 PM, jmecklenborg said:

 

 

Back when Nick Vehr was running the Cincinnati 2012 Olympic bid, there were many drawings of a gigantic convention center expansion over the highway that included an arena.  So all of the ideas people are throwing out here have already been suggested and studied 15+ years ago.  

 

 

 

 

Kinda tiny but you can see it here.

[troeros]

 

Current rumors are staying they are going for the 1,000 room option with the convention expansion. I'm not sure how many stories this will result for the hotel tower to be. 

 

[Brutus_buckeye]

It seems too unlike Cincinnati to close the Millenium, start tearing it down in 4 months and build a new tower and convention center expansion over Elm Street and have it all open in 2 years.  The worst thing that could possibly come from this is to close the hotel, tear it down and then have the entire project mired in controversy for 3-4 years while they argue the merits of closing or not closing the street and which direction to expand, and then having every interest group come with their hands out. It seems as if the ambitious time line for the project is too good to be true.

I also question how it can include the convention center expansion over Elm since there would have had to be a bunch of meetings on that already to make such a timeline realistic.

 

Call me skeptical, but I can see this project being mired in controversy for years and becoming an empty lot.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

7 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

It seems too unlike Cincinnati to close the Millenium, start tearing it down in 4 months and build a new tower and convention center expansion over Elm Street and have it all open in 2 years.  The worst thing that could possibly come from this is to close the hotel, tear it down and then have the entire project mired in controversy for 3-4 years while they argue the merits of closing or not closing the street and which direction to expand, and then having every interest group come with their hands out. It seems as if the ambitious time line for the project is too good to be true.

I also question how it can include the convention center expansion over Elm since there would have had to be a bunch of meetings on that already to make such a timeline realistic.

 

Call me skeptical, but I can see this project being mired in controversy for years and becoming an empty lot.

 

 

It seems like they could tear down one of the Millennium's towers to begin construction of a new hotel while keeping the other open.  But still, Cranley and Vendercar are all over this, which means it's a scam.  Lining their pockets with public dollars since the public assumes the risk if they aren't outright raiding the piggy bank.   

[Brutus_buckeye]

They could easily tear it down and build a new convention hotel on the same spot. That would be fine. However, if the plan is to close Elm and go over Elm like the renderings show, I am skeptical they can meet that timeline.

[troeros]

10 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

They could easily tear it down and build a new convention hotel on the same spot. That would be fine. However, if the plan is to close Elm and go over Elm like the renderings show, I am skeptical they can meet that timeline.

 

Hamilton County is OBSESSED with this project. To them the convention hotel and convention expansion is probably their number 1 priority hands down. The timeline will probably be VERY aggressive. Unlike the music Venue project, I imagine City officials, the mayor, and Hamilton County are both in the same mindset that this NEEDS to happen as quickly as possible. 

[Robuu]

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

It seems too unlike Cincinnati to close the Millenium, start tearing it down in 4 months and build a new tower and convention center expansion over Elm Street and have it all open in 2 years.  The worst thing that could possibly come from this is to close the hotel, tear it down and then have the entire project mired in controversy for 3-4 years while they argue the merits of closing or not closing the street and which direction to expand, and then having every interest group come with their hands out. It seems as if the ambitious time line for the project is too good to be true.

I also question how it can include the convention center expansion over Elm since there would have had to be a bunch of meetings on that already to make such a timeline realistic.

 

Call me skeptical, but I can see this project being mired in controversy for years and becoming an empty lot.

 

This is a strategy some local developers like to employ, though. Intentionally creating a scenario that urgently needs a remedy (e.g. a massive deficit of hotel rooms accompanied by an eyesore crater where the giant hotel was), then politically attacking anyone who opposes their plan to remedy the issue that was their own creation.

 

The countless manufactured crises and deadlines with the stadium come to mind. The tarps protecting pedestrians from fallen bricks off the Dennison come to mind. The "this deal must be approved right now for this specific developer or the Millennium owners simply will not sell" is already an indication that Smyjunas intends to go this route. Why seek consensus and win-win results when you can just strong-arm (with the aid of the mayor whose campaign you helped fund)?

[troeros]

Port, Vandercar finalizing Millennium Hotel deal

 

 

The Port of Greater Cincinnati Development Authority and Vandercar Holdings are completing the final draft of their agreement to assign Vandercar’s purchase agreement to the Port so it can buy and redevelop the Millennium Hotel.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/10/04/port-vandercar-finalizing-millennium-hotel-deal.html

 

[RJohnson]

2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

It seems too unlike Cincinnati to close the Millenium, start tearing it down in 4 months and build a new tower and convention center expansion over Elm Street and have it all open in 2 years.  The worst thing that could possibly come from this is to close the hotel, tear it down and then have the entire project mired in controversy for 3-4 years while they argue the merits of closing or not closing the street and which direction to expand, and then having every interest group come with their hands out. It seems as if the ambitious time line for the project is too good to be true.

I also question how it can include the convention center expansion over Elm since there would have had to be a bunch of meetings on that already to make such a timeline realistic.

 

Call me skeptical, but I can see this project being mired in controversy for years and becoming an empty lot.

Ah, you seem to know a lot about Cincinnati. I remember: that there was going to be a new bridge across the Ohio,  6o story GE headquarters at5th and Vine, the Olympics in queensgate, the vacant lot that is Saks and Nordstrom's,  all the proposals for the Artistry location, the renderings of the banks then the reality, the cover over FWW. the inclines revival. Call your bookie and see if he has odds of this new hotel. If it does happen, maybe it will go up faster because stacking room after room is easier. Of course, people will complain about the look and height and the traffic and parking and color and the shadow it will cast on downtown.

[Ucgrad2015]

3 hours ago, troeros said:

 

Current rumors are staying they are going for the 1,000 room option with the convention expansion. I'm not sure how many stories this will result for the hotel tower to be. 

 

No idea but I hope at least 450 ft. I think it will balance out the skyline better.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Cranley + Smyjunas.  This could be an elaborate foil.  Smyjunas has zero experience in downtown or hotel development. 

[646empire]

4 hours ago, troeros said:

 

Hamilton County is OBSESSED with this project. To them the convention hotel and convention expansion is probably their number 1 priority hands down. The timeline will probably be VERY aggressive. Unlike the music Venue project, I imagine City officials, the mayor, and Hamilton County are both in the same mindset that this NEEDS to happen as quickly as possible. 

 

100% correct. This is a RARE project in that everyone from the city to the county to every government agency is on the same page and want it done ASAP. Also this project generally seems to have great public support. This thing is happening for sure and fast similar to the 1010 Kroger project( A lot of people where skeptical about that projects fast timeline as well).

[savadams13]

1 hour ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

No idea but I hope at least 450 ft. I think it will balance out the skyline better.

Id say its safe to say between 375 and 450. I think it be a shot in the dark for 450 though. Indianapolis Hilton Signia is proposed at 38 stories for 800 rooms. Atlanta Hilton Signia is 30 stories for 1,000 rooms. It just depends on what the  footprint of the building will become.

[troeros]

Can we please keep this on topic about the project and not discuss conspiracy theories they serve no propose other than clog the thread.

[Ucgrad2015]

15 minutes ago, savadams13 said:

Id say its safe to say between 375 and 450. I think it be a shot in the dark for 450 though. Indianapolis Hilton Signia is proposed at 38 stories for 800 rooms. Atlanta Hilton Signia is 30 stories for 1,000 rooms. It just depends on what the  footprint of the building will become.

Would we also have to add in the height of the convention center expansion if the hotel is above that?

[savadams13]

12 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

Would we also have to add in the height of the convention center expansion if the hotel is above that?

 

Yeah if that plan becomes part of the design then the tower would basically start at about the  6th floor of the 84.51 building. 

[ColDayMan]

How much will co-developer of new convention hotel stand to make?

 

 

Oakley-based Vandercar Holdings could make up to $7.5 million under a deal to redevelop the Millennium Hotel site struck last week with the Port of Greater Cincinnati Development Authority, according to a copy of the contract obtained by the Business Courier via a public records request.

 

Under the deal, Vandercar, which is headed by developer Rob Smyjunas, will receive a $2.5 million developer fee when the Port closes on the property. The Millennium is currently owned by Millennium & Copthorne Hotels PLC, which is controlled by Singapore billionaire Kwek Leng Ben.

 

Assuming the Port does issue bonds to redevelop the hotel within one year, Vandercar will receive an additional $5 million. The fees are below the industry standard on a similar undertaking, Smyjunas said.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/10/11/how-much-will-co-developer-of-new-convention-hotel.html

[Guest jmecklenborg]

On 10/4/2019 at 2:10 PM, jmecklenborg said:

Cranley + Smyjunas.  This could be an elaborate foil.  Smyjunas has zero experience in downtown or hotel development. 

 

OMG IT'S EVEN WORSE THAN I EVER DARED TO SPECULATE.  SCUMBAG MAKES MILLIONS JUST FOR SIGNING HIS NAME ON SOME PAPERWORK. 

[RJohnson]

I hope these sketches of the new convention center addition are just speculative, because that gigantic video screen is presented almost staring into the setting sun and overlooking an existing Plum and 5th street parking lot. So, my guess is it can't be seen in the daytime and who is gonna pay to sit in a parking lot and watch it at night.

 

[troeros]

15 minutes ago, RJohnson said:

I hope these sketches of the new convention center addition are just speculative, because that gigantic video screen is presented almost staring into the setting sun and overlooking an existing Plum and 5th street parking lot. So, my guess is it can't be seen in the daytime and who is gonna pay to sit in a parking lot and watch it at night.

 

 

That won't remain a parking lot very long. Port Authority and 3cdc own that lot now and have expressed plans to redevelop the lot for mixed use development. 

[taestell]

When has 3CDC or the Port ever made a comment about putting a mixed use development on that parking lot?

[Pdrome513]

When the port bought the lot there were comments to the effect of “yeah we could do something mixed use or office or residential... or we could build a convention center hotel WINK”

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Pdrome513

[troeros]

3 hours ago, taestell said:

When has 3CDC or the Port ever made a comment about putting a mixed use development on that parking lot?

 

There was a WCPO article quoting Port authority stating that they plan to demolish the remaining structures, convert to a parking lot, with a goal of keeping it a parking lot for a minimum amount of time with plans of mixed use developement on that site. 

[thesenator]

3 hours ago, Pdrome513 said:

When the port bought the lot there were comments to the effect of “yeah we could do something mixed use or office or residential... or we could build a convention center hotel WINK”

 

 

14 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

OMG IT'S EVEN WORSE THAN I EVER DARED TO SPECULATE.  SCUMBAG MAKES MILLIONS JUST FOR SIGNING HIS NAME ON SOME PAPERWORK. 

He just did something the City couldn’t and was afraid to do.  Don’t blame him for being smarter and a better business man.

[SleepyLeroy]

Just a thought i had looking at this pic from the Terrace Plaza tour last year. What about leaving Elm as a surface thru street but dropping the west part of 6th after Elm into a tunnel and expanding the convention center North? This part of 6th is already devoid of anything  pedestrian related and there isn't anything west to walk too that also couldn't be walked to on 7th street. At the end the tunnel could divide to 50west & 75 North so the cars could hit the highway merging speeds a whole block sooner (to keep car folk happy) and maybe there is a left tunnel exit that pops up on Central heading South if needed beyond the intersection to avoid a light there at all. Just a thought Too bad 84.51 is between the Terrace Plaza and conv. center as the first few closed off floorsin it could be used for multimedia/meeting rooms as part of a larger Conventon Center complex.

 

[646empire]

1 hour ago, SleepyLeroy said:

Just a thought i had looking at this pic from the Terrace Plaza tour last year. What about leaving Elm as a surface thru street but dropping the west part of 6th after Elm into a tunnel and expanding the convention center North? This part of 6th is already devoid of anything  pedestrian related and there isn't anything west to walk too that also couldn't be walked to on 7th street. At the end the tunnel could divide to 50west & 75 North so the cars could hit the highway merging speeds a whole block sooner (to keep car folk happy) and maybe there is a left tunnel exit that pops up on Central heading South if needed beyond the intersection to avoid a light there at all. Just a thought Too bad 84.51 is between the Terrace Plaza and conv. center as the first few closed off floorsin it could be used for multimedia/meeting rooms as part of a larger Conventon Center complex.

 

 

Too expensive. I can see it happening tho in the 2030s after this next expansion. Or possibly a westward expansion , I think the new Brent Spence will actually be built by then.

Edited October 21, 2019 by 646empire

[SleepyLeroy]

3 minutes ago, 646empire said:

 

Too expensive. I can see it happening tho in the 2030s after this next expansion. Or possibly a westward expansion , I think the new Brent Spence will actually be built by then.

Maybe a job for.....THE BORING CO! We can tunnel all the way to Price Hill! Or we can call it a I-75 on-ramp tunnel and get federal funds.  I really hope it doesn't Keep expanding to be honest. Maybe by then conventions will be passe for all the carbon issues flying tradeshow people & booths to one city to meet for a weekend.

 

[JYP]

If they spend the money to flip the convention space up to the second floor and move the meeting rooms to the first floor they can go north and east without destroying the street grid.

 

[GCrites]

18 hours ago, SleepyLeroy said:

Maybe a job for.....THE BORING CO! We can tunnel all the way to Price Hill! Or we can call it a I-75 on-ramp tunnel and get federal funds.  I really hope it doesn't Keep expanding to be honest. Maybe by then conventions will be passe for all the carbon issues flying tradeshow people & booths to one city to meet for a weekend.

 

 

Or 6 MTG players loading up in a '98 Corolla and driving in from Lockland

[seaswan]

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/10/23/cincinnati-business-committee-probes-need-for-more.html

 

Interesting, maybe this is just a formality but it seemed like it was an assumption that the convention center would expand. 

[Brutus_buckeye]

Never thought that. It was on the radar but the convention expansion was a separate issue and would likely delay any rebuild of the hotel. If the hotel is predicated upon the expansion, the Millenium will be standing a few more years in my opinion OR, it gets torn down this fall and we are left with a gaping hole in the ground for 3 years until the city/county get their act together and come up with a plan for expansion or hotel.

 

[JYP]

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Never thought that. It was on the radar but the convention expansion was a separate issue and would likely delay any rebuild of the hotel. If the hotel is predicated upon the expansion, the Millenium will be standing a few more years in my opinion OR, it gets torn down this fall and we are left with a gaping hole in the ground for 3 years until the city/county get their act together and come up with a plan for expansion or hotel.

 

 

A few years ago somebody mentioned an interesting concept in a discussion about downtown Cincinnati development. He said there has always been "a hole" of temporary surface parking or empty land that moves around the core. In the 90's it was Fountain Place, then it was 5th and Race, then it was 4th and Race, and now it appears it could be the Millennium, post demolition.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

If the Terrace were torn down, that opening could be used as construction staging for an east/west subway under 6th St.  They can't easily do one under 5th St. because the Fountain Square garage extends under 5th St. and abuts the Westin's foundation.  This would mean the roof of a Fountain Square Station mezzanine would be about 40 feet below ground, putting the tracks 60+ feet below ground.  

 

A station of that depth might also be necessary under 6th St., but at least they'd be able to create a construction pit and not have to underpin an active parking garage.  

 

An east-west subway under 4th also would not have a staging area where the system's main station would need to be built.  

 

 

[DEPACincy]

20 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

If the Terrace were torn down, that opening could be used as construction staging for an east/west subway under 6th St.  They can't easily do one under 5th St. because the Fountain Square garage extends under 5th St. and abuts the Westin's foundation.  This would mean the roof of a Fountain Square Station mezzanine would be about 40 feet below ground, putting the tracks 60+ feet below ground.  

 

A station of that depth might also be necessary under 6th St., but at least they'd be able to create a construction pit and not have to underpin an active parking garage.  

 

An east-west subway under 4th also would not have a staging area where the system's main station would need to be built.  

 

 

 

Today's entry in things that will never happen.

[Brutus_buckeye]

20 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

If the Terrace were torn down, that opening could be used as construction staging for an east/west subway under 6th St.  They can't easily do one under 5th St. because the Fountain Square garage extends under 5th St. and abuts the Westin's foundation.  This would mean the roof of a Fountain Square Station mezzanine would be about 40 feet below ground, putting the tracks 60+ feet below ground.  

 

A station of that depth might also be necessary under 6th St., but at least they'd be able to create a construction pit and not have to underpin an active parking garage.  

 

An east-west subway under 4th also would not have a staging area where the system's main station would need to be built.  

 

 

Since when are they talking about a Subway again in Cincinnati? Heck in an ominous sign for the Subway, even the sandwich shops are struggling

[troeros]

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2019/11/12/millennium-hotel-shut-down-new-years-eve/2572571001/

Millennium Hotel will officially shut down December 31st.

 

Hopefully the port authority comes up with a plan quickly, because you are essentially cutting ties with nearly 900 hotel rooms. I imagine this will be a slight strain for convention business until a redevelopment plan is put into work. 

[Brutus_buckeye]

THe worst thing that could come from this is that they close this down and it sits vacant for years until they come up with a plan on what is going to happen next. I think this is the likely scenario as it does not seem to be that there is a cohesive plan going forward. Don't close the hotel down until you know what you are doing first.

[IAGuy39]

^I would bet they get moving quickly on this, like how the new Kroger came about, move quickly from demolition to construction, I doubt it sits around vacant for a long time a la Fourth and Race.

[Robuu]

I suspect they want to create a desperate situation so they can ram through whatever their plans are (which will include hotel rooms, of course) as an "emergency fix" with little debate about closing off streets or whatever they want to do which might create some push-back,

[jmblec2]

My hope would be that because they are shutting down, they feel he county will close on the property and because the county is closing on property they are farther along in their planning then the public is aware. This whole thing seems to be moving very quickly compared to other projects. To shut down a hotel with 900 rooms the county must be pretty confident of their plans.

[troeros]

29 minutes ago, jmblec2 said:

My hope would be that because they are shutting down, they feel he county will close on the property and because the county is closing on property they are farther along in their planning then the public is aware. This whole thing seems to be moving very quickly compared to other projects. To shut down a hotel with 900 rooms the county must be pretty confident of their plans.

 

Agreed. If the county genuinely didn't care about the status of the millennium/need for an expanded convention hotel then why even begin the process of shutting down the millennium? You only put yourself Ina bigger hole and will only damage the convention center even further with the lack of a dedicated convention hotel on top of losing 900 hotel rooms. Not redeveloping this site quickly only hinders their whole mission.

Edited November 12, 2019 by troeros

[JoeHarmon]

There are a bunch of other smaller hotels under construction that are supposed to be finishing up in the next year.  Ingalls building, Anna Louise Inn, the two on 7th and race, Traction building.  I know these are all much smaller, but in total, that could help alleviate some of the pressure.

[atlas]

Slightly off topic. But I’m surprised there’s been no movement to get a boutique hotel in OTR. This would be in high high demand 

[troeros]

34 minutes ago, JoeHarmon said:

There are a bunch of other smaller hotels under construction that are supposed to be finishing up in the next year.  Ingalls building, Anna Louise Inn, the two on 7th and race, Traction building.  I know these are all much smaller, but in total, that could help alleviate some of the pressure.

 

Yeah but most out of town convention folks want a direct access HQ convention hotel. It's stupid.

[troeros]

22 minutes ago, atlas said:

Slightly off topic. But I’m surprised there’s been no movement to get a boutique hotel in OTR. This would be in high high demand 

 

The old school for performing arts building at sycamore street was slated to be a hotel at one point