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Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks

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9 hours ago, jmblec2 said:

What about 26? When is the building supposed to break ground?

 

 

Sometime next summer. Hopefully sooner. Feel like if they wait too long that it won’t happen knowing how Cincinnati developments go. 

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City Council poised to ratify Cranley-Portune deal on the Banks

 

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Cincinnati City Council probably will approve the first of three ordinances on Thursday that would ratify a deal between Mayor John Cranley and Hamilton County Commissioner Todd Portune on how to develop the remainder of the central riverfront.

 

Council’s budget committee sent an ordinance to the full council that would amend the 2007 city-county cooperation agreement and divide the remaining undeveloped parcels up for development by either the county or the city.

 

“These are the legislative pieces that will allow the music venue to move forward,” said Luke Blocher, the deputy city solicitor involved in the negotiations.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/11/13/city-council-poised-to-ratify-cranley-portune-deal.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Council gives key approval to first of three measures needed to make music venue a reality

 

Cincinnati City Council on Thursday unanimously approved an ordinance making major changes to the cooperative agreement with Hamilton County at the Banks, the first of three ordinances needed to allow a music venue to be built on the riverfront.

 

The amendments divide up the remaining undeveloped parcels up for development by either the county or the city.

 

The deal would allow a Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra-developed music venue on Lot 27, with green space that could be used for outdoor concerts on Lot 23, while the county also would have a free hand in developing lots 24 and 25. Meanwhile, the city will get control of lots 1 and 13 just north of Paul Brown Stadium. CSO subsidiary Music and Event Management Inc. is spending $26 million to build the venue, Mayor John Cranley said.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/11/14/council-gives-key-approval-to-first-of-three.html

 

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Planning commissioner praises music venue design as panel OKs plans

 

The Cincinnati Planning Commission approved changes to the Banks’ concept plan Friday that will allow for a music venue to be built on the mixed-use riverfront development, the second of three city actions remaining to make the venue a reality.

 

Commissioner John Eby urged Music and Event Management Inc. not to alter the design of the venue as it gets closer to construction. MEMI is a fully owned subsidiary of the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra and will own and program the venue.

 

“This design is bold. I love it,” he said. “Please do not allow them to value engineer out the coolness of this building.”

 

The cost of the music venue has risen from $19 million to $26 million. The indoor seating capacity has gone from 4,000 seats to 4,500, said MEMI CEO Mike Smith. The venue will also feature outdoor concerts at the adjacent park to be built.

 

Cont

 

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"It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton

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Oh boo hoo, you can still have the zoning and let the market decide where the space is practical.

 

Major downtown business owners object to more office space at the Banks

By Chris Wetterich  – Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

Nov 20, 2019, 2:22pm EST Updated 3 hours ago

 

The owners of major buildings downtown objected to a plan set to receive a City Council vote to expand the amount of office space that would be allowed to be built at the Banks.

Neal Mayerson, owner of the Scripps Center at 312 Walnut St., said there is more than 1 million square feet of Class A office space downtown that is vacant. Meanwhile, rents have been stagnant for nearly three decades while expenses increase. He predicted it would hurt downtown property owners unless they were offered the right of first refusal for the new space.

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Let the music play: Banks venue gets final approval

By Chris Wetterich  – Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

Nov 20, 2019, 5:59pm EST Updated 20 minutes ago

 

The $27 million music venue set to go at the Banks has received all of the approvals needed from Cincinnati City Council to make the project a reality.

City Council unanimously approved on Wednesday changes to the Banks’ concept plan and a development agreement that will allow for a music venue to be built on the mixed-use riverfront development. On Nov. 14, it approved an ordinance making major changes to the cooperative agreement with Hamilton County dividing up the remaining parcels between the city and county.

 

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I'm suspicious that the city/county land break-up is some sort of preparation for giving The Bengals prime development sites as an incentive to sign a new lease in the late 2020s.  I'm also suspicious that The Bengals will demand a new practice field so that the existing field can be made into a mixed-use development that they likewise will control. 

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On 11/23/2019 at 1:51 PM, jmecklenborg said:

I'm suspicious that the city/county land break-up is some sort of preparation for giving The Bengals prime development sites as an incentive to sign a new lease in the late 2020s.  I'm also suspicious that The Bengals will demand a new practice field so that the existing field can be made into a mixed-use development that they likewise will control. 

 

"Hey...this winning the Super Bowl thing isn't really working out...let's get into land development!"

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1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

Do you think the Bengals want to actually develop something? It seems like all they care about is surface parking.

 

The LA Rams & Chargers are doing it at their new stadium.  

The Atlanta Braves moves out of DT Atlanta to the suburbs to have a site with development that they control. 

Nashville's soccer team is building development they control on the publicly-owned Nashville Fairgrounds.

FC Cincinnati is doing it here around their stadium.  

 

It's the trend and I think we should expect to give away valuable publicly-owned land in order to keep the team.  

 

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20 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

So instead of begging for money so much any more it's now land-begging.

 

I've always suspected that the Bengals insisted on having their practice field physically adjacent to the stadium so that they could build a new stadium there and ctrl-alt-del Paul Brown.  I doubt that Hamilton County voters will tolerate being taxed for yet another football stadium, especially if the land where Paul Brown is now is given to the team for several blocks of hotel and apartment development.  

 

Developing the existing practice fields seems more palatable to me, although whatever goes there will sort-of be tucked around a corner from downtown.  The team, of course, will demand a new practice field somewhere from the county, which is outrageous but a lot less outrageous than building a new stadium or leaving town.  

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Paul+Brown+Stadium/@39.0954471,-84.518698,596m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841b14e8e995ab1:0x991715beb84d8bcb!8m2!3d39.0954576!4d-84.5160577

 

 

 

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You can't fit a new stadium where their practice fields are.  That isn't nearly enough space.  And yeah any development on that site is going to be completely by itself surrounded by parking lots, bridges and highways.  Not exactly a desirable location.  

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Maybe not an entire new stadium, but most of a new stadium. You could maybe do the same thing that they did with Cinergy Field and Great American Ball Park -- build most of the new stadium where the practice fields are today, and then when you get to a certain point, demolish the western part of PBS while you finish the new stadium.

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35 minutes ago, taestell said:

Maybe not an entire new stadium, but most of a new stadium. You could maybe do the same thing that they did with Cinergy Field and Great American Ball Park -- build most of the new stadium where the practice fields are today, and then when you get to a certain point, demolish the western part of PBS while you finish the new stadium.

 

Also, the much-debated "new music venue" - if we ever get to see a final site plan - might be positioned so as to physically block a Race - Madison bridge.  

 

It has been like a 30+ year goal of Cincinnati's blue bloods to minimize access to the Covington riverfront.  The deterioration of the Suspension Bridge is a dream come true.  

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5 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Also, the much-debated "new music venue" - if we ever get to see a final site plan - might be positioned so as to physically block a Race - Madison bridge.  

 

It has been like a 30+ year goal of Cincinnati's blue bloods to minimize access to the Covington riverfront.  The deterioration of the Suspension Bridge is a dream come true.  

 

We do not need a Race-Madison bridge. And it isn't a goal of Cincinnati's "blue bloods" to block one because no one is even proposing one.

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23 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

We do not need a Race-Madison bridge. And it isn't a goal of Cincinnati's "blue bloods" to block one because no one is even proposing one.

 

One was completely funded in 1994.  The money was shifted to Maysville just as the FWW/stadium/Banks plan took shape.  The FWW rebuild intentionally cut off the I-71S access to the Covington riverfront via the suspension bridge that the Rivercenter development depended on.  The center tube of the Lytle Tunnel originally led directly to Covington with zero or at most one signal.  That same trip now requires 5~ stop lights and a traffic circle.  

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There are already three bridges that go from Cincy into Covington.  But yeah we totally needed that fourth one....

Edited by Cincy513
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Having a bridge that travels directly from Cincinnati's street grid to Covington's street grid would open up some possibilities for better transit connectivity. The Roebling can't handle full sized buses and may be converted to pedestrian-only someday. Both the CWB and Taylor-Southgate require a several minute detour.

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The TANK transit center was built on Madison in the big parking garage in anticipation of the Race-Madison bridge.  TANK is been kicked off the suspension bridge with the exception of the Southbank Shuttle, which was forced to buy the dorky buses it has now in order to keep using it.  

 

So to review:

 

1. For roughly 100 years, TANK streetcars and buses served DT Cincinnati via the Dixie Terminal. It was very, very fast.  There was a single stop sign near Riverfront Stadium, then the buses traveled over FWW to the Dixie Terminal building.  

 

2. In 1998~ TANK was kicked out of Dixie Terminal as part of the FWW rebuild. TANK started puttering around 4th and 5th streets, stopping at light after light.  

 

3. Circa 2010~ TANK was kicked off the Suspension Bridge completely...2 miles and several traffic signals added to every single run.   

 

4. The 2X Airport Express as well as any other suburban buses that travel on I-75 are slated to become even slower after the 5th St. ramp is rebuilt as a Texas Turnaround.  

 

The situation keeps getting worse and worse.  A relatively inexpensive new 2-lane bridge connecting Race & Madison offers a significant improvement to every Kenton and Boone County TANK route.  But it re-opens the Covington Riverfront to development that can compete with DT Cincinnati, which is why the blue bloods will fight it endlessly.  

 

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Cincinnati blue bloods are why all the downtown department stores were all so far away from each other instead of clustered within a 2-3 block stretch of High St. like they were in Columbus.

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44 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

The TANK transit center was built on Madison in the big parking garage in anticipation of the Race-Madison bridge.  TANK is been kicked off the suspension bridge with the exception of the Southbank Shuttle, which was forced to buy the dorky buses it has now in order to keep using it.  

 

So to review:

 

1. For roughly 100 years, TANK streetcars and buses served DT Cincinnati via the Dixie Terminal. It was very, very fast.  There was a single stop sign near Riverfront Stadium, then the buses traveled over FWW to the Dixie Terminal building.  

 

2. In 1998~ TANK was kicked out of Dixie Terminal as part of the FWW rebuild. TANK started puttering around 4th and 5th streets, stopping at light after light.  

 

3. Circa 2010~ TANK was kicked off the Suspension Bridge completely...2 miles and several traffic signals added to every single run.   

 

4. The 2X Airport Express as well as any other suburban buses that travel on I-75 are slated to become even slower after the 5th St. ramp is rebuilt as a Texas Turnaround.  

 

The situation keeps getting worse and worse.  A relatively inexpensive new 2-lane bridge connecting Race & Madison offers a significant improvement to every Kenton and Boone County TANK route.  But it re-opens the Covington Riverfront to development that can compete with DT Cincinnati, which is why the blue bloods will fight it endlessly.  

 

 

That's a great conspiracy theory, but the truth is much simpler. The suspension bridge cannot handle full sized buses, we don't prioritize transit in this region, and we can't afford to replace the Brent Spence Bridge, much less an additional Race-Madison bridge. It has nothing to do with concerns over Covington stealing business from DT Cincinnati.

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27 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

It has nothing to do with concerns over Covington stealing business from DT Cincinnati.

 

It has everything to do with it.  Class A office space is the most profitable type of real estate, and those who control a city control where it can be built throughout a combination of transportation access, zoning, and height limits.  There is no such thing as Class A office space outside of NYC and a handful of other places that has poor access to expressways.  Covington had very good access to I-71 until FWW was rebuilt.  It's no coincidence that the center tube that formerly lead to Rivercenter I & II in Covington now leads directly to the Queen City Square tower's parking garage.  

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9 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

There is no such thing as Class A office space outside of NYC and a handful of other places that has poor access to expressways.

 

And it just so happens Covington has an expressway running right through it. And regional leaders have made it a priority to replace the expressway bridge and add even more capacity. If they were trying to kill the Covington office market that would be a very poor strategy.

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^Madison is where DT Covington has always been centered.  It's where the courthouse is because it's directly opposite DT Cincinnati.  When they were built, Rivercenter I & II had better access to I-71 and I-75 at the south end of the suspension bridge than they would have had in the fast food district, plus all of the Kenton County and Boone County TANK routes ran right next to the buildings, whereas the fast food district is only served by a few buses.  Corporex would not have been able to finance the Rivercenter development if banks and investors didn't believe it was a viable location for Class A office space.    

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33 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

^Madison is where DT Covington has always been centered.  It's where the courthouse is because it's directly opposite DT Cincinnati.  When they were built, Rivercenter I & II had better access to I-71 and I-75 at the south end of the suspension bridge than they would have had in the fast food district, plus all of the Kenton County and Boone County TANK routes ran right next to the buildings, whereas the fast food district is only served by a few buses.  Corporex would not have been able to finance the Rivercenter development if banks and investors didn't believe it was a viable location for Class A office space.    

 

You realize it takes exactly 2 minutes to get from 4th and Madison to I-75 now, right? Your theory doesn't even make sense, because DT Covington STILL has good highway access. And there's about to be a HUGE chunk of land ready for redevelopment near I-75. Not to mention all the development that is possible in the fast food district. 

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Since the suspension bridge is owned by Kentucky, I don't see how its deteriorating condition and inability to support large buses is in any way Cincinnati's fault.  

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13 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

You realize it takes exactly 2 minutes to get from 4th and Madison to I-75 now, right? Your theory doesn't even make sense, because DT Covington STILL has good highway access. And there's about to be a HUGE chunk of land ready for redevelopment near I-75. Not to mention all the development that is possible in the fast food district. 

There's no point in arguing with him and his dumb conspiracies.  

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It's not exactly a conspiracy to say downtown's power brokers and land owners don't want the riverfront to succeed its fullest potential and they definitely don't want Covington/Newport to be well connected or successful either. Less than a week ago Business Courier ran a story titled "Major downtown business owners object to more office space at the Banks". These people are in it for themselves and don't care about the big picture.

I think Blink this year proved that at some point in the not so distant future we will need a new bridge between Covington and Cincinnati. The Roebling has nets to catch falling stone fragments, needs major repair and can't support trucks or large vehicles or even large crowds of pedestrians. 

 

The scenario that used to exist with all of NKY's transit leading to and from Dixie terminal could still basically happen if we utilized the Riverfront transit center in the same way, it would just be two blocks further south. 

Edited by ucgrady
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1 minute ago, ucgrady said:

It's not exactly a conspiracy to say downtown's power brokers and land owner's don't want the riverfront to succeed its fullest potential and they definitely don't want Covington/Newport to be well connected or successful either. Less than a week ago Business Courier ran a story titled "Major downtown business owners object to more office space at the Banks". These people are in it for themselves and don't care about the big picture.

I think Blink this year proved that at some point in the not so distant future we will need a new bridge between Covington and Cincinnati. The Roebling has nets to catch falling stone fragments, needs major repair and can't support trucks or large vehicles or even large crowds of pedestrians. 

 

The scenario that used to exist with all of NKY's transit leading to and from Dixie terminal could still basically happen if we utilized the Riverfront transit center in the same way, it would just be two blocks further south. 

 

Also of note regarding the power brokers role at the Banks is back in 2007 they objected to zoning at the development that would have allowed 20+ story towers in the development. 

  

On 8/30/2007 at 5:40 PM, UncleRando said:

Downtown forces line up in opposition to Banks plan

BY DAN MONK | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER

August 30, 2007

 

DOWNTOWN - Downtown's biggest office developers are gearing up to fight the proposed Banks riverfront development project, arguing a massive increase in densities and building heights could harm the downtown office market.

 

"This type of subsidized development for 30-story buildings would be a great detriment to the Central Business District from a competitive standpoint and would be unfair to all of the local developers who have developed the Central Business District over the years with their own dollars and hard work," said an Aug. 29 letter to Cincinnati's City Council from attorney Joe Trauth, representing the Mayerson family and American Financial Group.

 

Full story text is available by selecting the headline

 

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“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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17 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

It's not exactly a conspiracy to say downtown's power brokers and land owners don't want the riverfront to succeed its fullest potential and they definitely don't want Covington/Newport to be well connected or successful either. Less than a week ago Business Courier ran a story titled "Major downtown business owners object to more office space at the Banks". These people are in it for themselves and don't care about the big picture.

I think Blink this year proved that at some point in the not so distant future we will need a new bridge between Covington and Cincinnati. The Roebling has nets to catch falling stone fragments, needs major repair and can't support trucks or large vehicles or even large crowds of pedestrians. 

 

The scenario that used to exist with all of NKY's transit leading to and from Dixie terminal could still basically happen if we utilized the Riverfront transit center in the same way, it would just be two blocks further south. 

 

I'm not saying property owners aren't self-interested. I'm saying this particular theory (kill Covington) doesn't make any sense. First of all, downtown business owners have way more sway in Cincinnati zoning decisions (i.e. what happens at the Banks) than they do in regional transportation decisions. Their biggest voice in those decisions is the regional chamber, which 100% supports expanding transit and improving transportation to better connect the two sides of the river. So exactly the opposite of what Jake is claiming. 

 

And let's be real. We are wayyyyyy better connected than most bi-state regions. Have you tried to walk or drive from Philadelphia to Camden? Or NYC to Jersey City? Those places have way better transit connections for sure, but for the most part they are woefully under-connected. There are only three vehicular bridges from Manhattan to North Jersey and two from Center City Philly to South Jersey. And all of those are highway bridges. We have five from DT Cincy to NKY! And three of them are surface streets. If you live in Hoboken you cannot walk to Manhattan. But if you live in Newport or Covington you have multiple options to walk to downtown Cincinnati.

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38 minutes ago, JYP said:

Also of note regarding the power brokers role at the Banks is back in 2007 they objected to zoning at the development that would have allowed 20+ story towers in the development. 

 

Is that objection based on diluting the office market, or (more likely) attempting to protect the views of existing 3rd and 4th Street towers?  Not saying either position is good, but the motivations are different. 

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24 minutes ago, jjakucyk said:

 

Is that objection based on diluting the office market, or (more likely) attempting to protect the views of existing 3rd and 4th Street towers?  Not saying either position is good, but the motivations are different. 

 

I think at the time it was mainly about views. 3rd street-oriented office buildings enjoyed a commanding view of the river for so long they were afraid their views would be blocked, and their values reduced.

 

Also, there was a huge fight over whether public low-income housing would go on the site. It was never part of the plan but was probably more irrational fear stoked from somewhere.

 

As for Jake's theories, I don't think there was coordination in reducing transit as he eludes to it. Both sides of the river were unfriendly to transit around that time (as evidenced by the MetroMoves vote in 2002). Service times have suffered as a result of having to use the Clay-Wade Baily instead of the Suspension Bridge, but not by much. As stated earlier, using the RTC would improve times and service as some TANK routes already switch from Kenton County oriented routes to Campbell County routes in downtown. The only challenge is that we would need something to connect bus riders from Govt. Square to the RTC. If only there were such a pedestrian circulator...


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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On 11/25/2019 at 1:09 PM, jmecklenborg said:

 

I've always suspected that the Bengals insisted on having their practice field physically adjacent to the stadium so that they could build a new stadium there and ctrl-alt-del Paul Brown.  I doubt that Hamilton County voters will tolerate being taxed for yet another football stadium, especially if the land where Paul Brown is now is given to the team for several blocks of hotel and apartment development.  

 

Developing the existing practice fields seems more palatable to me, although whatever goes there will sort-of be tucked around a corner from downtown.  The team, of course, will demand a new practice field somewhere from the county, which is outrageous but a lot less outrageous than building a new stadium or leaving town.  

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Paul+Brown+Stadium/@39.0954471,-84.518698,596m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841b14e8e995ab1:0x991715beb84d8bcb!8m2!3d39.0954576!4d-84.5160577

 

 

 

 

This came out in the Enquirer this morning (subscriber only): https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2019/11/27/nfl-stadiums-what-should-cincinnati-do-paul-brown-stadium/2142787001/

 

To summarize, the article states that PBS is mid-life and what are the options for the county and team coming up on the 2026 lease expiration. Both sides have hired someone to assess renovation needs and we'll know more in 2020. Scott Wartman, the reporter, reviews potentials options. Build new, have the team leave or renovate. 

 

Key quote regarding Jake's post above though is this:

Quote

New stadiums now come with small villages built around them.

 

The $5 billion SoFi Stadium set to open next year in Inglewood, Calif. will come with 298-acre complex of office buildings, shops and restaurants built around it. Forbes magazine described the future home of the Los Angeles Chargers and Rams as a "real estate project that just so happens to include an NFL stadium."

 


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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Demolish one or two of the strip mall plaza in Fields Ertel and put the new stadium there. Let Warren County pay for it this time. ODOT just pumped tens of millions of dollars into upgrading that interchange anyway.

 

Here are Fields Ertel and The Banks at the same scale. You can see that a new stadium would easily fit where the Kings Automall or Waterstone Center are.

 

241721501_fieldsertel.thumb.jpg.9ae29385095a922260327a38cfdab5a4.jpgbanks.thumb.jpg.78671093fbb581a3d8e016e6138aa3b2.jpg

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1 hour ago, JYP said:

To summarize, the article states that PBS is mid-life...

 


PBS is "mid-life" and yet The Banks is still not fully built out and what tenants are there, are... well it's hit and miss. 

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