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Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks

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"The 550-space garage underneath the music venue will cost $29 million and sit underneath the music venue and a future lawn next to Paul Brown Stadium"

 

$52,727 per spot parking garage

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But it also lifts the development out of the floodplain, right? Still expensive, but the alternative is put it in the floodplain or fill it with dirt (which would still cost millions and give the county nothing).

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1 hour ago, ryanlammi said:

But it also lifts the development out of the floodplain, right? Still expensive, but the alternative is put it in the floodplain or fill it with dirt (which would still cost millions and give the county nothing).

Filling in with dirt would be much more expensive actually. It's the whole impetus of building the Riverfront Transit Center. Structure is expensive, but volume isn't. With fill, you're doing every cubic inch of that volume.

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The Freedom Center and the lawn immediately south of it, home to "Sing the Queen City" and our hillbilly London Eye are built on the dirt that used to form Fort Washington Way's levee.  In 1998~ they simply bulldozed all of it a few hundred feet south into something resembling the fruit cake room from Pee-Wee's Christmas Special. 

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53 minutes ago, jmicha said:

Filling in with dirt would be much more expensive actually. It's the whole impetus of building the Riverfront Transit Center. Structure is expensive, but volume isn't. With fill, you're doing every cubic inch of that volume.

 

Fill dirt can be brought onto site and graded and compacted for about $12 to $17 a cubic yard. Gas is cheap and there are quite a few large projects in Cincinnati digging big holes. The Banks looks like it needs about 15 feet or so of fill, on average, to get above the base flood elevation. I don't know how many acres Lot 27 is, but you're looking at around $300,000 to $400,000 max per acre to just use dirt. The parking garage is likely several times more expensive.

 

Anecdotally, The Banks garage doesn't seem to be all that crowded most of the time - it seems a lot of people are willing to walk a bit further to the cheaper lots to the west. At some point you do have to wonder if there's more than enough parking.

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1 hour ago, Ram23 said:

 

Fill dirt can be brought onto site and graded and compacted for about $12 to $17 a cubic yard. Gas is cheap and there are quite a few large projects in Cincinnati digging big holes. The Banks looks like it needs about 15 feet or so of fill, on average, to get above the base flood elevation. I don't know how many acres Lot 27 is, but you're looking at around $300,000 to $400,000 max per acre to just use dirt. The parking garage is likely several times more expensive.

 

Anecdotally, The Banks garage doesn't seem to be all that crowded most of the time - it seems a lot of people are willing to walk a bit further to the cheaper lots to the west. At some point you do have to wonder if there's more than enough parking.

I don't really deal much with large amounts of fill in my projects, so my knowledge of numbers is admittedly limited. Am I crazy or did they not determine that filling under 2nd Street would have cost more than building the Riverfront Transit Center?

 

Regardless, you'd still need to build retaining walls, implement drainage, use fill capable of holding up the venue, etc. That's going to be more expensive than just filling in with general backfill.

Edited by jmicha

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10 minutes ago, jmicha said:

It's more than 15'

I guess it also depends on what you plan to put on top of it. My thought was something that can actually be used for more than grass, but you're probably right that just general landscaping fill would be significantly cheaper.

 

But creating new earth that can have anything useful on top of it is expensive. But in this scenario that doesn't really seem like it would be what's necessary.

 

I don't really deal much with large amounts of fill in my projects, so my knowledge of numbers is admittedly limited. Am I crazy or did they not determine that filling under 2nd Street would have cost more than building the Riverfront Transit Center?

 

I believe that the transit center was only incrementally more expensive to construct than to fill, especially since they got either a state or federal grant to build it. 

 

If you read the audit of the California High Speed Rail program that was just released in November, you see repeated mentions of the second $900 million federal grant that California received from the stimulus funding after its initial $2+ billion grant.  That was Wisconsin and Ohio's money. 

 

If Ohio hadn't given back the money, we would have gotten some of Wisconsin's money, perhaps $100 million or more.  That would have been enough to extend the 3C's rail from the contemplated Bond Hill station to the Transit Center.  We'd have trains running in the thing right now if now for Kasich.  And the sales tax would be 1/4 cent lower. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ram23 said:

Anecdotally, The Banks garage doesn't seem to be all that crowded most of the time - it seems a lot of people are willing to walk a bit further to the cheaper lots to the west. At some point you do have to wonder if there's more than enough parking.

 

Yeah I wonder if the garage is ever fully occupied and if further expansion of the garage is really necessary. Alternatively, let's keep expanding the underground garage, but let Banks residents park there so that we don't have to keep building above-ground garages on top of the underground garage.

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AC Hotel at the Banks’ rooftop igloos debut: PHOTOS

By Tom Demeropolis  – Senior Staff Reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier

Dec 6, 2018, 8:06am EST Updated 2 hours ago

 

What do you do with a rooftop bar when it’s really cold? Build igloos.

That’s the solution AC Hotel Downtown Cincinnati at the Banks came up with for its Upper Deck rooftop bar. Instead of closing the space completely for the winter, the hotel has added four “igloos” so people can have rooftop drinks even in the snow.

 

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17 hours ago, taestell said:

 

Yeah I wonder if the garage is ever fully occupied and if further expansion of the garage is really necessary. Alternatively, let's keep expanding the underground garage, but let Banks residents park there so that we don't have to keep building above-ground garages on top of the underground garage.

Maybe for a Reds or Bengals game?  Outside of that though it's definitely never full.  For those events though they make everyone clear out of the garage so it would be very annoying if you had a monthly spot and still had to do it.  The norther portion of current has it's own above ground garage but the southern building does not.  They park in the garage underneath their building but have their spots fenced off from the general public parking.  Not sure why they couldn't do that for radius.  Or just have people who live at the banks get special mirror hanging passes that signify they can park in the garage 24/7.  But of course the Reds and Bengals have to make their money so obviously we clear it all out.  

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37 minutes ago, The_Cincinnati_Kid said:

 

What do you do with a rooftop bar when it’s really cold? Build igloos.

That’s the solution AC Hotel Downtown Cincinnati at the Banks came up with for its Upper Deck rooftop bar. Instead of closing the space completely for the winter, the hotel has added four “igloos” so people can have rooftop drinks even in the snow.

 

 

From the article: "The igloos are available from 5 p.m. to midnight nightly and can be reserved starting at $250 for two hours..."

 

I would like to know who actually pays $250 for 8 people to spend an hour inside a tent (they're not actual igloos) for two hours. 

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I'm visiting Baltimore right now, spending time in the area called Harbor East (streetview)... and I can't help but think this is what The Banks could have become if it had been better designed/managed. Its roughly 6 blocks so somewhat comparable to The Banks in terms of size and scale, but here there are several 20+ story towers with mixed use. It has a Four Seasons (built 2011) hotel/residences. The Legg Mason Tower (built 2009) also houses the Johns Hopkins Carey School of Business. I think of Baltimore as being just a bit wealthier/larger than Cincinnati, but maybe that's wrong and Baltimore is in a different league. This development certainly feels like a whole different league compared to anything in Cincinnati. 

 

At one point, UC Law looked at moving to The Banks, and it would have been neat for the Law School and a local business to go in together on constructing a tower like Legg Mason and Carey did. A lot of the street level retail here in Harbor East is typical high end (Anthropologie, Brooks Brothers, J Crew, Madewell, etc.), but there are also few local offerings like the Under Armour "Brand House".  And there's a full-sized Whole Foods. Overall, the area just feels nicely designed and well executed with beautiful architecture.

 

Which reminds me... has a replacement to Carter been selected? In summer 2017, it was announced that Carter would not be the master developer for remaining phases... but I don't recall if a replacement has been selected. 

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Metro Baltimore might be nominally wealthier than Cincinanti by virtue of being in the Washington metroplex, but the city itself is probably on equal footing with Cincinnati, if not actually a bit shabbier. West Baltimore is... rough, to say the least, and even most of downtown is a bit grubby. But that's more of an East Coast thing than specifically a Baltimore thing. It's really a lot like St. Louis, where you have some really solid neighborhoods (Fells, Mt Vernon, Charles Village) that butt up directly to some not-so-friendly places. 

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The reason why there is a heavy build up in Baltimore, is all the folks that work in DC and commute from Baltimore. I have two friends that live in Baltimore and commute into DC. Housing/Rent prices are alot lower than DC. So there is a pent up demand in the area now, and younger population with DC paychecks spending in Baltimore. 

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A large monument/ride/artpiece/touristdraw will help to get people off the interstates and into the city. Consider the Octolith,  a 30 story tower of steel and glass, plus a figure eight ferris style ride. Don't like Octolith, then consider Awful Tower.

ferris2.jpg

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