Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks

[City Blights]

It's not that I don't recognize or care that the Banks architecture is mediocre to date, it's that the project is designed to be a port of renaissance for the core of Cincinnati, and it's doing just that in its unfinished phase.  The Banks is attracting a demographic Cincinnati has starved for in it's core, which are suburbanites or would-be suburbanites with plenty of expendable income.  It has the region, not just the city, excited about seeing downtown again, whether their last trek was 3 years ago or three weeks. 

 

The project is proving itself multidimensional, so there's no reason to feel poor architecture outweighs that value or merits undying ridicule with all of the positives the Banks has contributed to the community.  Holistically, Phase I architecture isn't as important as it seems.  Just as one could see proper infill in other major Eastern cities, one could also stumble upon pro-modern disasters and shameful faux-historic/modern hybrids.  I'm not upset that Cincinnati has a couple blocks of cheap that are raking dough as opposed to blocks and blocks of cheap in a residential neighborhood (like Corryville) that would diminish any feel of community and be the catalyst for a dozen or more Second Empire demos.

[MissinOhio]

I'm curious how DT Cincinnati is doing better than DT Cleveland?  DT Columbus is a no brainer due to the fact Columbus really offers nothing outside of the Arena District.  I have been to both DT Cincinnati and DT Cleveland recently, and in my opinion activity is more spread out in DT Cleveland giving it a more lively vibe.  From Playhouse Square to the Warehouse District and points in between like East Fourth, etc.  This is a serious question, throw out bias, what is Cincinnati doing differently than Cleveland?

[Civvik]

While I agree that the architetcture is not good, I'm still having trouble understanding when you say it "undermines the stated goal of the riverfront development".  What are the criteria of success for the Banks?  If the Banks is fully leased and it's looked at as an exciting place to live with lively streets that gets people excited about living downtown, then isn't that successful?

 

I mean, I would prefer that the Banks have all that and be more architecturally sophisticated.  But the success of the Banks so far seems to indicate that the public is responding to the urban form that the Banks represents and doesn't care so much about the architectural aesthetic.

 

I don't know how else to say this as succinctly without sounding offensive: Your standards are too low. If The Banks had been entirely a private endeavor and they spent so much building the infrastructure that they absolutely had to build cheap buildings to make the project work, I personally would not be so critical.

 

But that is not the case. In reality, public money built all the infrastructure. Public guidance brought us the street grid, the parks, and held fast to the vision that the riverfront would be a natural and proper extension of the downtown grid.

 

Then a private development team came in on top of all of that and built the cheapest building imaginable, which filled up in a matter of weeks, and in which they charged some of the region's highest rents.

 

The proper response should have been "We have spent 10 years and hundreds of millions of dollars creating this space, it is the most important space in our city, we have faith in it, and you are not going to build a cheap building there."

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Civvik I bet their market research told them they couldn't command much more in rent if they spent, say, $10 million more on better construction.  That's the problem with having a for-profit enterprise in the center of what is essentially public space.

[northsider]

Civvik I bet their market research told them they couldn't command much more in rent if they spent, say, $10 million more on better construction.  That's the problem with having a for-profit enterprise in the center of what is essentially public

 

I'm also wondering how much plans changed because of the Great Recession.  I know that it caused Phase I to go from condos to apartments, right?  Did the initial renderings look more sophisticated?

[Civvik]

I would answer but I'll wait for it to be moved to The Banks thread.  :P

[The_Cincinnati_Kid]

Banks related spinoff development, 309 Vine (Central Trust Annex) is getting a new life!

 

Project thread:  http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,27413.new.html#new

[seanian]

While I agree that the architecture is not good, I'm still having trouble understanding when you say it "undermines the stated goal of the riverfront development".  What are the criteria of success for the Banks?  If the Banks is fully leased and it's looked at as an exciting place to live with lively streets that gets people excited about living downtown, then isn't that successful?

 

I mean, I would prefer that the Banks have all that and be more architecturally sophisticated.  But the success of the Banks so far seems to indicate that the public is responding to the urban form that the Banks represents and doesn't care so much about the architectural aesthetic.

 

I don't know how else to say this as succinctly without sounding offensive: Your standards are too low. If The Banks had been entirely a private endeavor and they spent so much building the infrastructure that they absolutely had to build cheap buildings to make the project work, I personally would not be so critical.

 

But that is not the case. In reality, public money built all the infrastructure. Public guidance brought us the street grid, the parks, and held fast to the vision that the riverfront would be a natural and proper extension of the downtown grid.

 

Then a private development team came in on top of all of that and built the cheapest building imaginable, which filled up in a matter of weeks, and in which they charged some of the region's highest rents.

 

The proper response should have been "We have spent 10 years and hundreds of millions of dollars creating this space, it is the most important space in our city, we have faith in it, and you are not going to build a cheap building there."

 

Absolutely 100 percent agree with that statement.  After so much money being spent for that area only to have an architectural unappealing building put in is just horrific.

[taestell]

I feel like it is more like Cincinnati to complain about new development than roll with the punches of new development. Very proud of CUF.

 

We're Cincinnatians, we have no choice but to believe our own echo is the smartest and most rational voice in the room.  Just look at the Banks thread.  There's a complaint about the building materials about every fourth comment.  The Smale thread is starting to sound like a neighborhood council meeting.  Cincinnatians, the laziest perfectionists you'll ever know.

 

Most of us on this forum are not employed by Carter Dawson or in some position of power relating to The Banks.  We didn't get to make the decision on The Banks' architecture, so all we can do is talk about it here.  The fact that it's turned into an echo chamber just shows that the majority of us are disappointed in the architecture.  By contrast, I think most of us are very impressed by the Riverfront Park.  If there's some way that we can force Carter Dawson to do a better job on Phase II of The Banks, please let us know.

[taestell]

sitting in an airport bar in CVG right now as I write this -- group on business people flying back are talking about how great downtown is and how it feels so much cleaner, safer and alive compared to cbus and cleveland. If I had time I'd buy them a drink right now.

 

Now all we need is a better airport (with rail service)!  It's so good to hear Cincinnati's downtown outperforming other cities based on recent development and decisions/policy enacted by the current guard.  DT Cinti was already a step ahead of most, but that had more to do with the dense market environment weaved by generations of yesteryear.

 

Last time I was at CVG, I heard a group of people discussing Toby Keith's and the dining options on "Main Street" such as Senate and Abigail Street. (Side note: They didn't mention OTR or the Gateway Quarter at all, so I'm not sure if they knew or cared that those restaurants were located in OTR or just considered them to be "Downtown".)

[City Blights]

I feel like it is more like Cincinnati to complain about new development than roll with the punches of new development. Very proud of CUF.

 

We're Cincinnatians, we have no choice but to believe our own echo is the smartest and most rational voice in the room.  Just look at the Banks thread.  There's a complaint about the building materials about every fourth comment.  The Smale thread is starting to sound like a neighborhood council meeting.  Cincinnatians, the laziest perfectionists you'll ever know.

 

Most of us on this forum are not employed by Carter Dawson or in some position of power relating to The Banks.  We didn't get to make the decision on The Banks' architecture, so all we can do is talk about it here.  The fact that it's turned into an echo chamber just shows that the majority of us are disappointed in the architecture.  By contrast, I think most of us are very impressed by the Riverfront Park.  If there's some way that we can force Carter Dawson to do a better job on Phase II of The Banks, please let us know.

 

No one said you can´t complain if you don´t feel satisfied with something in life.  The frugal exterior clearly stems from cost and lack of interest on the part of developers to overrun on building materials.  Labor is costly nowadays.  This does not excuse the City from acquiesing such a downgrade from the universally accepted vision of the early 2000s that was far more ornate and representative of an enclave.  However, because you are tired of the incessant complaints about architecture as if there weren´t factors that catalyzed this change or that subsequent phases have a real possibility of being more elaborate does not mean that you aren´t disappointed in some aspects of Phase I.  It just means you´re tired of hearing the same things.

[seanian]

I feel like it is more like Cincinnati to complain about new development than roll with the punches of new development. Very proud of CUF.

 

We're Cincinnatians, we have no choice but to believe our own echo is the smartest and most rational voice in the room.  Just look at the Banks thread.  There's a complaint about the building materials about every fourth comment.  The Smale thread is starting to sound like a neighborhood council meeting.  Cincinnatians, the laziest perfectionists you'll ever know.

 

Most of us on this forum are not employed by Carter Dawson or in some position of power relating to The Banks.  We didn't get to make the decision on The Banks' architecture, so all we can do is talk about it here.  The fact that it's turned into an echo chamber just shows that the majority of us are disappointed in the architecture.  By contrast, I think most of us are very impressed by the Riverfront Park.  If there's some way that we can force Carter Dawson to do a better job on Phase II of The Banks, please let us know.

 

I very much agree that the park is looking absolutely wonderful.  Very impressed!

 

Now about those apartments; With regard to the banks architecture, perhaps it will be heard that the people are very disappointed with the design for phase 1 and Carter Dawson will try to use a much better design.  I'm wondering if they had some blind guy heading up the project, or perhaps everybody that worked at the offices of Carter Dawson were "yes" people and just agreed with their project boss and stuck their fingers down their throats in disappointment when leaving their office.  Because when I look through this thread, I can't find where people are saying how wonderful they are; just the opposite.  The banks just happen to be in a very high profile area and should not have apartment buildings that look like they were built in a typical apartment development on the outskirts of the city. 

 

It's good that people are voicing their opinions and letting others know they are not pleased, maybe somebody is listening and it will be much nicer in the next phase. 

[CincyGuy45202]

It's only good if we're voicing our opinions outward! Anyone email the banks people?

[seanian]

It's only good if we're voicing our opinions outward! Anyone email the banks people?

 

Isn't that what we're doing, voicing our opinions outward?  Regarding contacting the banks people, I would love to.  Do you know the contact information for the banks people? I wouldn't know who is directly in charge or the contact information for these people. 

 

I'm actually surprised from as much as I hear on this thread that somebody wouldn't have posted this information a few times already giving out their information.

 

I guess like so many people, I just assume that this information is going to get out to these people from being on these threads.  They are doing business in this area and it deals directly with them, I would think they would search out this information to see what people are saying.  But you are correct, we all need to be more proactive and reach out to them instead of waiting for them to find out this information by other means. 

[jjakucyk]

Voicing opinions on a discussion forum doesn't really get them out in any meaningful way.  It's slacktivisim at its most absurd. 

[City Blights]

It's only good if we're voicing our opinions outward! Anyone email the banks people?

 

Precisely.  If you aren't happy with the way the City runs things or the way they've allowed developers to carry on, organize your thoughts, do your research and present your case as a professional.  It's not just Mark Mallory's city, or Mike Brown's, or any other administrator.  Claim your stake.

[Civvik]

I don't like where this conversation is going.

 

 

[CincyGuy45202]

It's only good if we're voicing our opinions outward! Anyone email the banks people?

 

Isn't that what we're doing, voicing our opinions outward? 

 

Not really... Urban Ohio is an "open forum" but it's crazy to assume that developers, managers, city leaders, etc. would be reading things that are posted on here.

 

Regarding contacting the banks people, I would love to.  Do you know the contact information for the banks people? I wouldn't know who is directly in charge or the contact information for these people. 

 

I did a basic google search and found:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Banks/100978646612808?ref=ts

http://twitter.com/#!/TheBanksCincy

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

 

In a nice, smart way, say that after such great public investment, and with the economy picking up, we should be ensuring that the developer build a higher quality development that is less likely to age with time or become dated, etc.  Since we're counting on these being here for the next 40-50 years, they should be of a better quality than a typical apartment development.  or whatever else you want to say.

 

 

I'm actually surprised from as much as I hear on this thread that somebody wouldn't have posted this information a few times already giving out their information.

 

 

I think that's why god invented google.

 

I guess like so many people, I just assume that this information is going to get out to these people from being on these threads.  They are doing business in this area and it deals directly with them, I would think they would search out this information to see what people are saying.  But you are correct, we all need to be more proactive and reach out to them instead of waiting for them to find out this information by other means.

 

As I said earlier, there is great information and great discussion on this thread.  But I highly doubt that any political leaders/major developers read this. If you want something told to someone in charge, find their email, and send your thoughts! :)

 

Also, letters to the editor about the importance of raising the bar in Phase 2 of the Banks would be good as well.

 

[email protected]

and directions

http://news.cincinnati.com/interactive/article/99999999/EDIT0202/302160003/Send-letter-editor

 

 

[Guest jmecklenborg]

>It's only good if we're voicing our opinions outward! Anyone email the banks people?

 

I maintain a correspondance with one of the "banks people" and believe me they are as upset with what happened as anyone here is.  You have to remember that some of them have spent the better part of 10 years of their professional careers on this project and they want it to be something they look back on with pride.  I think with this first phase what happened was the city/county was desperate for something and they capitulated to the developer, who is by doing things on the cheap making out big-time. 

 

[mcadrenaline]

MLH and the Banks is prominently featured in Cleveland's Plain Dealer travel section today. Great writeup on Cincinnati and our renaissance. The cover photo in the print edition is from the terrace at MLH.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2012/06/two_days_in_the_city_cincinnat.html

[willalbro]

^^ Thanks for posting this! Great to see that our progress is noticed by Cleveland! Woot!

[2LiveCarew]

Pretty glowing (but a bit superficial) assessment of The Banks/riverfront park/other development from the New York Times. Also, they put the initial streetcar line at 2.6 miles--I thought it was a bit longer than that, am I wrong?

 

An Ohio River City Comes Back to its Shoreline

 

CINCINNATI — The shoreline of this Ohio River city, which in the 19th century hummed with 30 steamboat visits a day but faded in the 20th as pollution and industrial disinvestment pushed people and businesses inland, is emerging again as a hub of civic and economic vitality.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/realestate/commercial/cincinnati-comes-back-to-its-ohio-river-shoreline.html

[thomasbw]

3.6

[natininja]

I find the article underwhelming. It's okay as an article about the Banks and riverfront development, but it's poor as an article about what's going on in the downtown area, let alone the city. Therefore the scope is too small for all the "river city" comparisons, especially without reference to what other cities are doing with their riverfronts.

 

Some of the facts are kind of silly, too, from the praise of the Banks architecture to the reference to Cincy as the "third largest Ohio River city" when Louisville has a unigov and Pittsburgh is only very recently (2010 census I think?) negligibly larger.

[ColDayMan]

^To be fair, Cincinnati IS the "third largest Ohio River city" so that's quite accurate, with Louisville's Unigov or not.  Perhaps that can boost discussion for Cincinnati's own Unigov ;).

[natininja]

I know it's technically accurate, but it's a silly statistic to cite, because whatever it might be meant to communicate it probably doesn't communicate. How does its inclusion improve the article? Or help someone unfamiliar with Ohio River cities learn about relevant characteristics for comparison?

[RockyMountainHigh]

I was also severely underwhelmed by the NYT article. The Louisville stat is absurd and the rest of the article is ho-hum. The Cleveland Plain Dealer's Susan Glaser did a FAR better job in her lengthy story last week. And the pictures were much better also.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2012/06/two_days_in_the_city_cincinnat.html

[Cygnus]

Construction confirmed inside Tin Roof, Mahogany's, and The Wine Guy Bistro.

[oakiehigh]

They could've used a picture that didn't focus on the back of the buildings facing Freedom Way.  Either way, it's good to see NYT taking notice.

[CincyGuy45202]

If I remember correctly... Crave is opening Monday, right?

[cincySAL]

not sure when it's opening but when I went past it on Tuesday there were people in line inside and the TV's were on, yet there was still construction outside.  Not sure if they did a soft opening or something but it looked like people waiting to order or get a drink, I couldn't tell.

[cincySAL]

Looks like next week some time:

 

http://www.wlwt.com/news/entertainment/New-restaurant-to-open-at-Banks-next-week/-/9837584/14735340/-/jiw0lo/-/index.html

 

[CincyGuy45202]

The Video in that link says Monday! Exciting- although this place isn't really my thing, I hope it does great.

 

Also, for some reason they included la crepe nanou even though that got dropped months ago. :)

 

 

[UncleRando]

not sure when it's opening but when I went past it on Tuesday there were people in line inside and the TV's were on, yet there was still construction outside.  Not sure if they did a soft opening or something but it looked like people waiting to order or get a drink, I couldn't tell.

 

They did a media and invited guests night. They will be opening to the public very soon.

[OTR]

The Video in that link says Monday!

 

Yep, Monday. If anyone wants more info: http://www.facebook.com/CRAVEcincinnati

[The_Cincinnati_Kid]

Crave Preview....

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Avis=AB&Dato=20120608&Kategori=ENT&Lopenr=206080803&Ref=PH

[jmicha]

Looks nice! That translucent stone wall really stands out from outside. When I drove by a couple days ago after going to the park it is the first thing that caught my eye. I look forward to trying this place out.

[Jack]

Has anyone been to a Rainforest Cafe, such a the ones in Florida and Chicago?  This cafe would be really great for the Banks!!

[RockyMountainHigh]

Has anyone been to a Rainforest Cafe, such a the ones in Florida and Chicago?  This cafe would be really great for the Banks!!

 

I suggested this as a possibility some pages back when the topic shifted to how to draw suburban families with kids down there to spend their money. None of the current restaurants are kid-friendly with the exception of Johnny Rockets, but that's hardly a destination. You couldn't even get into Toby Keith's after the Reds game on Thursday afternoon without an ID. And the venues opening later this year won't really cater to families either. For that reason I think a RF Cafe would be a natural fit. It's a destination for families, there are no remotely nearby locations and it gets visitors to drop their money on silly stuffed animals, beer mugs and other stuff.

 

Or what about a Jimmy Buffet's Margaritaville Cafe? There is such a big tie between Buffet and Cincinnati that I think this would work. While most locations are on the beach somewhere tropical, there are also cafes in Niagara Falls, Nashville and suburban Phoenix.

 

 

[Jack]

A couple of months ago I sent an e-mail to Mallory's office about looking in to the possibility of adding the Rainforest Cafe to the Banks project...got a standard "thank you" reply.

[CincyGuy45202]

^ Mayor Mallory is not the banks developer. Email Mark Falon of Anderson real estate (or something like that). He is the one who has signed all of these restaurants on behalf of Carter Dawson. his name is plastered on every blank storefront downthere and was mentioned for bringing in both Crave & Yard house

 

[Jack]

I called Mark Falon, and he said they would again contact the organization that sponsers the RainForest Cafe, and bring them up to speed in regard to the remarkable progress of the Banks in hopes that they will recosider building  a cafe on the riverfront.

[natininja]

Wow, that's quite a response.

[Gordon Bombay]

Or what about a Jimmy Buffet's Margaritaville Cafe? There is such a big tie between Buffet and Cincinnati that I think this would work. While most locations are on the beach somewhere tropical, there are also cafes in Niagara Falls, Nashville and suburban Phoenix.

 

 

 

There was also already one in suburban Cincinnati.

 

Edit: Apparently it was a "cheeseburger in paradise," not a "margaritaville."

[JYP]

Next phase of the Banks looks to be 10 stories tall, 300 apartments. Groundbreaking by the end of the year:

 

Urban Design Review Board on latest plans for The Banks

By Jay Hanselman

 

 

Members of Cincinnati's Urban Design Review Board are expressing some concerns about a new restaurant that will be in a stand-alone building just south of the Freedom Center at The Banks.

 

Representatives describe the Yard House as a high end casual eatery that features nearly 160 beers on tap.

 

The review board is concerned about the orientation of the building for the restaurant. Its service entrance, or the location where deliveries are made and the trash is picked up, will be located on Freedom Way.

 

Board members also are not impressed with a gabled roof that would face the riverfront.

 

[RockyMountainHigh]

I called Mark Falon, and he said they would again contact the organization that sponsers the RainForest Cafe, and bring them up to speed in regard to the remarkable progress of the Banks in hopes that they will recosider building  a cafe on the riverfront.

 

Did Falon use the word "reconsider"? If so, apparently they've already tried to get Rainforest Cafe.

[Rabbit Hash]

Next phase of the Banks looks to be 10 stories tall, 300 apartments. Groundbreaking by the end of the year:

 

Urban Design Review Board on latest plans for The Banks

By Jay Hanselman

 

 

Members of Cincinnati's Urban Design Review Board are expressing some concerns about a new restaurant that will be in a stand-alone building just south of the Freedom Center at The Banks.

 

Representatives describe the Yard House as a high end casual eatery that features nearly 160 beers on tap.

 

The review board is concerned about the orientation of the building for the restaurant. Its service entrance, or the location where deliveries are made and the trash is picked up, will be located on Freedom Way.

 

Board members also are not impressed with a gabled roof that would face the riverfront.

 

I can see why they would want the service not on Freedom.

 

10 stories for the next phase sounds nice.  Need some height  there.  Get the office building in and will start to feel decidedly urban in spite of the bland architecture of phase one. 

[Jack]

Falon implied that they had previously investigated the possibility of locating the restaurant, -or one like Rainforest - and got a lukewarm response.-

[northsider]

So I'm seeing stuff about them starting Phase 2 construction west of the Freedom Center in the next few months - has anyone heard anything on when Phases 1B and 1C will happen?  The big gap at the southeast corner of Walnut and Second where Phase 1B is supposed to go always makes my eye twitch every time I see it.

[natininja]

I think they are waiting for private developers to come along. People who want to build an office tower and/or hotel.