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Norwood: Development and News

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3 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

Love how it quotes just a quarter mile away from $650000 new builds in Oakley. For sure makes me want to spend that money if I know that I’ll be kinda sorta maybe close to some nice houses. 

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1 hour ago, msred513 said:

Fencing has been placed around the U. S. Playing Card Co. property, so it looks like demolition will begin soon.

20200215_172331.jpg

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Is the main building staying? I know that there’s a developer wanting to redevelop that site. Is it for that or was the demolition going to happen before the developer came into play?

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7 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

Is the main building staying? I know that there’s a developer wanting to redevelop that site. Is it for that or was the demolition going to happen before the developer came into play?

 

I believe that's the goal of the property management firm that bought it, to save what they could. PLK Communities spoke to Norwood city council a while back about their plans for the site. I think the demo was only planned once the property was sold to them.

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Logistic company CEO, wife to redevelop Norwood building into event center, office space

 

fidelitycenter*750xx2767-1559-1822-133.j

 

A husband and wife duo are redeveloping a building in Norwood into an event center and class A office space.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/04/06/exclusive-logistic-company-ceo-wife-to-redevelop.html

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"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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On 4/6/2020 at 2:55 PM, ColDayMan said:

Logistic company CEO, wife to redevelop Norwood building into event center, office space

 

fidelitycenter*750xx2767-1559-1822-133.j

 

A husband and wife duo are redeveloping a building in Norwood into an event center and class A office space.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/04/06/exclusive-logistic-company-ceo-wife-to-redevelop.html

Glad to see it’s being redeveloped. Downtown Norwood could have really been a nice dense area if it wasn’t for that horrible shopping center across the street. 

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2 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

Downtown Norwood could have really been was a nice dense area if it wasn’t for before they tore half of it down to build that horrible shopping center across the street. 

 

Fixed that for you.  

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8 minutes ago, jjakucyk said:

 

Fixed that for you.  

Thanks. Haven’t really seen any photos of old downtown Norwood. 

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Basically the east side of Montgomery Road used to be just like the west side until they went all urban renewal on it.  There was a relatively unbroken urban commercial corridor all the way from Dana Avenue up to Ross Avenue.  They reamed out everything on the east side of the street in the 1970s to build Surrey Square and widen Montgomery Road, which also demolished numerous buildings north of Sherman Avenue (which didn't originally exist east of Montgomery).  They basically went all-in on the suburban development pattern and haven't looked back since, unfortunately.  

 

This is what Montgomery at Smith and Norwood Avenue looked like in the 1940s:  http://www.jjakucyk.com/transit/streetcars-evanston/slides/0010_13118903_1164142883605049_2965232649975106518_n.html

 

0010_13118903_1164142883605049_2965232649975106518_n.thumb.jpg.317cab2e25a371ae0071cfd36c867173.jpg

 

And the same location today:  https://goo.gl/maps/7Przc4g2pC9jY6xM6 

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On 4/10/2020 at 10:14 AM, jjakucyk said:

Basically the east side of Montgomery Road used to be just like the west side until they went all urban renewal on it.  There was a relatively unbroken urban commercial corridor all the way from Dana Avenue up to Ross Avenue.  They reamed out everything on the east side of the street in the 1970s to build Surrey Square and widen Montgomery Road, which also demolished numerous buildings north of Sherman Avenue (which didn't originally exist east of Montgomery).  They basically went all-in on the suburban development pattern and haven't looked back since, unfortunately.  

 

This is what Montgomery at Smith and Norwood Avenue looked like in the 1940s:  http://www.jjakucyk.com/transit/streetcars-evanston/slides/0010_13118903_1164142883605049_2965232649975106518_n.html

 

0010_13118903_1164142883605049_2965232649975106518_n.thumb.jpg.317cab2e25a371ae0071cfd36c867173.jpg

 

And the same location today:  https://goo.gl/maps/7Przc4g2pC9jY6xM6 

 

Clearly Norwood has a great location and I remember something about "location" from my real estate classes.  Hopefully people like Pete Ventura and Peter Klekamp of PLK can get this town back on the right track.  Kroger is going to need to build its distribution network after the C-19 crisis and Surrey Square has great access to Norwood Lateral, I-71 and I-75 (with a few modifications to entry & exit ramps).

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Just now, thesenator said:

 

Clearly Norwood has a great location and I remember something about "location" from my real estate classes.  Hopefully people like Pete Ventura and Peter Klekamp of PLK can get this town back on the right track.  Kroger is going to need to build its distribution network after the C-19 crisis and Surrey Square has great access to Norwood Lateral, I-71 and I-75 (with a few modifications to entry & exit ramps).

 

Maybe all Norwood needs is more Peters.

Edited by thesenator

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7 hours ago, thesenator said:

 

Clearly Norwood has a great location and I remember something about "location" from my real estate classes.  Hopefully people like Pete Ventura and Peter Klekamp of PLK can get this town back on the right track.  Kroger is going to need to build its distribution network after the C-19 crisis and Surrey Square has great access to Norwood Lateral, I-71 and I-75 (with a few modifications to entry & exit ramps).

 

I didn't dare put this in writing but I believe one of the reasons why the rapid transit loop was scuttled was because Norwood was seen as a very serious rival to DT Cincinnati.  Much of the motivation for the rapid transit loop was to depopulate the West End and turn over that area to industrial uses.  It was envisioned that Norwood and points north would become a replacement residential area for what was demolished in the old city. 

 

But by the 1920s it was clear that the Cincinnati metro area was going to grow vastly toward the north along the Mill Creek flood plain to Butler County.  In fact, I'd bet that some people foresaw a continuous city all the way from Norwood to Hamilton - what essentially exists today, except the scale of sprawl in all directions is far beyond what that same visionary could have imagined back then.  A DT Norwood would be much closer to those future districts than DT Cincinnati.  No, the county courthouse wouldn't move - but there would be new office buildings, department stores, etc.  It's only because of the Depression followed by WWII followed by the construction  of I-75 - which was not routed directly through Norwood - that this didn't come to pass. 

 

 

 

 

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Oh give me a break.  Norwood?  A rival to downtown?  By the 1920s it had already been mostly built-up with homes and industries.  Nothing made it look at all like any sort of potential new commercial node.  I don't even think such things even happened in that time period.  This was when zoning and master plans were being developed to limit development and redevelopment, not enable them.   

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How social media helped shape plans for former U.S. Playing Card site

 

PLK Communities has big plans for the former U.S. Playing Card site in Norwood, but the coronavirus outbreak and efforts to stem its spread have made the company think outside the box when it comes to development.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/05/21/how-the-developer-of-former-us-playing-car-site.html

 

usplayingcardtower2*750xx1536-2048-0-0.j


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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They're not taking any prisoners with this one.  I'm surprised they're stripping even the original building down so much.  Woof. 

 

 

IMG_7781.jpeg

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15 hours ago, jjakucyk said:

They're not taking any prisoners with this one.  I'm surprised they're stripping even the original building down so much.  Woof. 

 

 

IMG_7781.jpeg


I’m told that hazardous materials were quite pervasive due to the age of the building and it’s manufacturing uses.  If so, trying to specifically abate is not financially feasible.  Fortunately they are saving the iconic clock tower and, I believe, the smokestack.

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^Common cop-out. That’s why you leverage brownfield funding.
 

I can’t imagine the dirtiest part of playing card manufacturing is that significant relative to many other manufacturing uses, and that the dirtiest part was even in that front section.  

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The grease to keep the machines lubed was probably worse than the plant based inks and paste that Bicycle uses. 
 

Actually, the dirtiest part was probably the sheet stripping and punching machines. They used internal combustion engines until they were retrofitted for electric motors when the plant moved to Erlanger. 


“To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”

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I bet the people at U.S. Playing Card could teach the people who make Magic cards a thing or two about not being a Two-Sigma industry.

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Wow, they're demolishing half the original building just so they can ram a street through there at an arbitrary angle?  It's not Rookwood Commons, it's Rookwood Pavilion, leaving just a couple small fragments of the old facility in a haphazard melange of banality.  

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1 hour ago, taestell said:

Looks like a worse Newport on the Levee.

 

Just needs some fake shipping container food trucks. 

 

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4 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

 

I randomly drove past this development yesterday.  I wish they would have kept all the buildings since they seemed like easy conversions to apartments, but I realize there is a lot more to it than I know.

 

This development currently seems too far off of any major path to become a lifestyle development.  I know the Norwood Lateral is close, but not as close as major streets and highways near Rookwood, Newport, or Kenwood.  

Edited by nicker66

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16 minutes ago, nicker66 said:

 

I randomly drove past this development yesterday.  I wish they would have kept all the buildings since they seemed like easy conversions to apartments, but I realize there is a lot more to it than I know.

 

This development currently seems too far off of any major path to become a lifestyle development.  I know the Norwood Lateral is close, but not as close as major streets and highways near Rookwood, Newport, or Kenwood.  

This development is too far off the main drag, Montgomery and Norwood Lateral to be successful. Who wants to drive that far off the interstate to stay at the hotel, eat at restaurant, or shop at store? We are a very car centric city still. I guess it might be successful with the constant changes in Norwood, but seems like someone didnt do their homework. 

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When I heard that most of the historic campus was going to be demolished, I assumed that they were going to replace it with 1-story warehouses or generic suburban-looking apartments. I'm surprised they want to attempt to build something walkable and mixed-use there.

 

My biggest complaint with the site plan is that they missed an opportunity to extend Park Avenue and its grassy median through the site, which would have made it feel more cohesive with the surrounding neighborhood, rather than feeling like something hastily designed and plopped down there.

 

What's interesting is that you have three redevelopment projects happening right next to eachother as the crow flies, but because of I-71 and the train tracks, each one is its own little island. If you could build some new ped/bike bridges across those obstacles, you could actually undo some of the damage that was done when the highway was built and knit it back together into a nice walkable urban area.

 

norwood area developments.jpeg

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7 minutes ago, taestell said:

When I heard that most of the historic campus was going to be demolished, I assumed that they were going to replace it with 1-story warehouses or generic suburban-looking apartments. I'm surprised they want to attempt to build something walkable and mixed-use there.

 

My biggest complaint with the site plan is that they missed an opportunity to extend Park Avenue and its grassy median through the site, which would have made it feel more cohesive with the surrounding neighborhood, rather than feeling like something hastily designed and plopped down there.

 

What's interesting is that you have three redevelopment projects happening right next to eachother as the crow flies, but because of I-71 and the train tracks, each one is its own little island. If you could build some new ped/bike bridges across those obstacles, you could actually undo some of the damage that was done when the highway was built and knit it back together into a nice walkable urban area.

 

norwood area developments.jpeg

 

If there was a feasible way, add onto the railroad bridge to connect US Playing Card to Kenner site. 

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Giant bicycle roundabout/overpass, anyone? You could even decorate it with Bicycle playing card designs. 


“To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”

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There being no legal way to cross the railroad tracks on foot/bike, or even by car on surface streets, between Forest Avenue and Madison Road is criminal.  That's a full 1.2 mile barrier.  The old Duck Creek Road tunnel next to I-71 is technically closed, even if it is passable, but it doesn't really get you anywhere.  Even as a supposedly fearless cyclist, I avoid biking to the Oakley Station side because Madison/Vandercar is the only real access.  A crossing at 34th or Verne can't come soon enough.  

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1 hour ago, savadams13 said:

This development is too far off the main drag, Montgomery and Norwood Lateral to be successful. Who wants to drive that far off the interstate to stay at the hotel, eat at restaurant, or shop at store? We are a very car centric city still. I guess it might be successful with the constant changes in Norwood, but seems like someone didnt do their homework. 

 

It's like 2 minutes from the Montgomery Rd exit on the Lateral and 3 minutes from the Smith Rd exist on I-71. That's too far? 

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32 minutes ago, jjakucyk said:

There being no legal way to cross the railroad tracks on foot/bike, or even by car on surface streets, between Forest Avenue and Madison Road is criminal.

 

It looks like the Google Streetview car found this out the hard way:

 

https://goo.gl/maps/r9gwLT5GQFgCSSR18

 

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1 hour ago, savadams13 said:

 

If there was a feasible way, add onto the railroad bridge to connect US Playing Card to Kenner site. 

 

The walk over I-71 via Robertson Avenue between US Playing Card and the Neyer project (Kenner) is less than 1/2 a mile.  That's not unreasonable.  We all need to get out of our cars.  

Edited by thesenator
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If they build a pedestrian bridge over I-71 north of the B&O tracks then people will be able to easily walk/bike between U.S. Playing Card and the Milacron redevelopment.  

Edited by jmecklenborg

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8 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

It's like 2 minutes from the Montgomery Rd exit on the Lateral and 3 minutes from the Smith Rd exist on I-71. That's too far? 

Hahaha you don't know Cincinnatians. If you have to make multiple turns down a couple different streets then people tend to be turned off by traveling there. They want easy not hard access.

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21 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

It's like 2 minutes from the Montgomery Rd exit on the Lateral and 3 minutes from the Smith Rd exist on I-71. That's too far? 

 

Looks good on a map, which will most likely attract a chain restaurant or two that doesn't know the area, but when was the last time you drove anywhere near this development?  I am in that area daily and don't ever drive near it.  Apartments are fine, but it would be insane for restaurant and retail to open in this location.  

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13 hours ago, savadams13 said:

Hahaha you don't know Cincinnatians. If you have to make multiple turns down a couple different streets then people tend to be turned off by traveling there. They want easy not hard access.

 

I mean... I live here, so I think I know them a bit. 

 

This isn't designed to appeal to "Cincinnatians" in West Chester or Mason. Many areas of the city that don't have great highway access are thriving. The Northside business district is way better today than it was when it had direct highway access. Hyde Park and Mount Lookout squares have basically zero highway access. You have to drive through the entire neighborhood to get to them. Pleasant Ridge business district is way off the highway. And if you're comparing it to more suburban developments, well it is a clusterf*ck trying to get off of I-71 and into Oakley Station, yet it is very successful. This will be more easily accessible than a lot of successful developments. 

 

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2 minutes ago, nicker66 said:

 

Looks good on a map, which will most likely attract a chain restaurant or two that doesn't know the area, but when was the last time you drove anywhere near this development?  I am in that area daily and don't ever drive near it.  Apartments are fine, but it would be insane for restaurant and retail to open in this location.  

 

Well the apartments provide a large, built-in customer base as a start. But the "I never drive there" argument doesn't really hold up because, right now, there is no reason for anyone to want to drive there. I never drive near Summit Park unless I'm intending to go there. I never drive to Madisonville unless I'm intending to go there. Ditto for the Incline District, Mainstrasse, Columbia-Tusculum, and Woodburn. There's lots of places I would never drive to otherwise that have successful destinations. I don't see how this will be any different. 

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18 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

This isn't designed to appeal to "Cincinnatians" in West Chester or Mason. Many areas of the city that don't have great highway access are thriving. The Northside business district is way better today than it was when it had direct highway access. Hyde Park and Mount Lookout squares have basically zero highway access. You have to drive through the entire neighborhood to get to them. Pleasant Ridge business district is way off the highway. And if you're comparing it to more suburban developments, well it is a clusterf*ck trying to get off of I-71 and into Oakley Station, yet it is very successful. This will be more easily accessible than a lot of successful developments. 

 

It's not so much about direct highway access, it's about the fact that this site is not directly on any "main drag" for cars, transit riders, or pedestrians. It could end up being a nice urban node, but in order for that to be the case, it needs better connections to the surrounding residential areas. Oakley residents can technically walk to this site, but the existing Robertson Ave. bridge is not welcoming for pedestrians. In its currently proposed form, this development will mostly be "drive-to urbanism" much like Oakley Station.

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Travis beat me to the punch but I'll trundle on anyway.  

 

Retail would be a big mistake, since there's no pass-by traffic whatsoever.  Even Robertson isn't really that much of a through route.  Montgomery Road/Surrey Square is just a half mile away and has much more visibility.  A low-key brewery/taproom might work ok, but it would be a one-and-done with nothing else likely to survive or even bother trying.  Any potential retail/restaurant tenant would look at this site and note that within a 1-mile radius there's plenty more underutilized sites with much better visibility and access.  

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21 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

Do not "hide" retail. 

 

This is exactly my point.  How could any retail survive here? If retail can't work at The Banks, it certainly won't work in a random part of Norwood.  

 

Hyde Park, Northside and Pleasant Ridge have been established for literally a hundred years.  A developer just can't create a new retail development out of thin air.

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I'm not complaining. This city has a severe lack of good retail spaces anyways, so I'm glad a developer is willing to give it a shot. Better than being completely abandoned as it was before. 

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They have posted the renderings from the video on their Facebook page: US Playing Card Redevelopment. They actually have a lot of good posts of the work so far. It seems pretty rare for any developer to be this public about what they are doing.

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On 6/3/2020 at 1:19 PM, taestell said:

 

It's not so much about direct highway access, it's about the fact that this site is not directly on any "main drag" for cars, transit riders, or pedestrians. It could end up being a nice urban node, but in order for that to be the case, it needs better connections to the surrounding residential areas. Oakley residents can technically walk to this site, but the existing Robertson Ave. bridge is not welcoming for pedestrians. In its currently proposed form, this development will mostly be "drive-to urbanism" much like Oakley Station.

 

I don't disagree with this. It could be more visible for sure. And it needs more connections. And it it will likely be "drive-to urbanism" like you say. But the contention was that it would fail because it was too far off the highway. I don't buy that. With the right anchors it could be successful just like Oakley Station. And by successful, I mean the developers will make money, not necessarily that it'll be good urbanism. 

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6 hours ago, nicker66 said:

 

This is exactly my point.  How could any retail survive here? If retail can't work at The Banks, it certainly won't work in a random part of Norwood.  

 

"Retail doesn't work at the Banks" has become a meme around here but it's not really true. The businesses at the Banks do quite well. They also pay high rents, which has slowed its build out. Rents in this development in Norwood will be substantially lower so it will fill up faster.

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