Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Guest KJP

Cleveland: Bob Stark Warehouse District Project

Recommended Posts

Regardless, I agree with everything he has to say about it.

 

Now I just wanna see actions follow words. I'm interested to see how much of this rhetoric he follows through on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regardless, I agree with everything he has to say about it.

 

Now I just wanna see actions follow words. I'm interested to see how much of this rhetoric he follows through on.

 

I'm with you jpop... Somewhere, above, I believe Stark set a deadline for submitting a proposal to the CPC... We'll see if he follows through... We should have a contest to see which occurs 1st: Bob Stark delivering a concrete proposal with specific building goals, or UO/Pesht thread reaching 100 pages speculating about what Stark will do -- right now I'm betting on UO; we're only 42 pages away!!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it is, as of yesterday.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My source tells me this project is shelved for an indeterminate amount of time. I see this project as getting scaled down quite a bit or not happening at all. Stark is having trouble finding big money lenders for this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, I think that is the direction that things are heading, with the growth in scale/size of the FEB project would come at the expense of the Stark project, which I think was the most pivotal project for downtown.  Yes, the FEB is important for Cleve, but Pesht was the nagging missing piece that would have tied things together, but is only feasable if securing office tenants (and who knows when we will see that potential again).  I know that McCle seems to think that everything can happen, but that is pretty unrealistic.  Hopefully if scraped, it can still move forward in some form or the other pivotal pieces on the drawing boards  for downtown can still happen (Cleve. Trust site).       

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm saving my speculation until after I see what Stark presents later this month.  If he is changing the scale or direction of this project, then we'll have to just wait and see what his new plans are before any judgments are made. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, I think that is the direction that things are heading, with the growth in scale/size of the FEB project would come at the expense of the Stark project, which I think was the most pivotal project for downtown.  Yes, the FEB is important for Cleve, but Pesht was the nagging missing piece that would have tied things together, but is only feasable if securing office tenants (and who knows when we will see that potential again).  I know that McCle seems to think that everything can happen, but that is pretty unrealistic.  Hopefully if scraped, it can still move forward in some form or the other pivotal pieces on the drawing boards  for downtown can still happen (Cleve. Trust site).       

 

Pesht has always been the biggest questionmark in terms of viability, simply due to it's scale.  Personally I think FEB is more important.  You can't have an abandoned waterfront.  Don't forget either that FEB and the other projects had a couple year head start.  Things of this magnitude don't sprout up over night.  It may not happen right now.  But I think with the momentum being built in downtown, when FEB is up and running, the ECP is finished, CSU has made their major moves on Euclid, 668, ameritrust complex, the district of design is in full swing, the avenue district (essentially 2010... and I think the redevelopment of E.12th is going to have a bigger impact than people realize)... and downtown is the "cool" place to be business wise.  The climate could be quite "ripe" for putting the crown jewel / finishing piece in place. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My source tells me this project is shelved for an indeterminate amount of time. I see this project as getting scaled down quite a bit or not happening at all. Stark is having trouble finding big money lenders for this.

 

^I heard the exact same thing. Unfortunately it appears that the FEB's expansion has come at the expense of Pesht. For now.

Unfortunately, I think that is the direction that things are heading, with the growth in scale/size of the FEB project would come at the expense of the Stark project, which I think was the most pivotal project for downtown.  Yes, the FEB is important for Cleve, but Pesht was the nagging missing piece that would have tied things together, but is only feasable if securing office tenants (and who knows when we will see that potential again).  I know that McCle seems to think that everything can happen, but that is pretty unrealistic.  Hopefully if scraped, it can still move forward in some form or the other pivotal pieces on the drawing boards  for downtown can still happen (Cleve. Trust site).       

 

Pesht has always been the biggest questionmark in terms of viability, simply due to it's scale.  Personally I think FEB is more important.  You can't have an abandoned waterfront.  Don't forget either that FEB and the other projects had a couple year head start.  Things of this magnitude don't sprout up over night.  It may not happen right now.  But I think with the momentum being built in downtown, when FEB is up and running, the ECP is finished, CSU has made their major moves on Euclid, 668, ameritrust complex, the district of design is in full swing, the avenue district (essentially 2010... and I think the redevelopment of E.12th is going to have a bigger impact than people realize)... and downtown is the "cool" place to be business wise.  The climate could be quite "ripe" for putting the crown jewel / finishing piece in place. 

^McCleveland, I love your optimism and whole-heartedly agree. While Stark's project is either dead or going to be significantly scaled back for now, the site is simply too central and with economic forces changing the way we look at downtowns and central cities (primarily increasing fuel prices), along with all the developments already happening here, that will make those lots too valuable to sit vacant much longer into the future. The question will be whether Stark eventually gets this built or someone else takes the torch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And according to officials at last week's E&Y announcement, DFAS is still looking for its own office space.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And according to officials at last week's E&Y announcement, DFAS is still looking for its own office space.

^I thought they were staying where they were (Celebreeze bldg?) and renovating their current space, no?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm saving my speculation until after I see what Stark presents later this month.  If he is changing the scale or direction of this project, then we'll have to just wait and see what his new plans are before any judgments are made. 

 

ditto.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just heard some big news. I don't want to spill the beans, but you all won't have to hold your breath for long. Big announcement coming Friday. I hope to have more details by Wednesday.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's KJP!  Of course it's good news!  I'm guessing Stark has signed Microsoft and Boeing and upsized Pesht by 250%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's KJP!  Of course it's good news!  I'm guessing Stark has signed Microsoft and Boeing and upsized Pesht by 250%.

 

God, boeings 2nd new HQ in a few years? Now chicago is going to be pissed!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the two big law firms??..... Or both???  (Both of them dwarf Tucker Ellis in terms of space needed).  Given proximity to the courthouse, WHD would be prime location for both Baker and Squires.

 

How about the County???

 

Bottom line - there still are some major tenants out there to land but timetable to break ground in time to get them on board is evaporating rapidly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough, pope.  But it's certainly exciting that something, anything is finally going down with this project, even if it turns out to be bad news. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before this spirals out of control, Any posts from here on out guessing about the details of KJP's Tidbit Will be Deleted

 

Sorry Pope! My main reason for posting that message was to stop the doomsayers from saying doom. It isn't warranted. It's good news, which will only show that the project is still alive. I just forgot how much the folks here like to pontificate when I drop one of my teases!


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before this spirals out of control, Any posts from here on out guessing about the details of KJP's Tidbit Will be Deleted

 

Sorry Pope! My main reason for posting that message was to stop the doomsayers from saying doom. It isn't warranted. It's good news, which will only show that the project is still alive. I just forgot how much the folks here like to pontificate when I drop one of my teases!

 

Its not your fault, I certainly appreciate the heads up, just imagine

 

Post #1: Cheesecake Factory?

Post #2: (ColDayMan): Lawd have mercy!

Post #3: ESPN Zone?

Post #4: Tenant X

 

and on and on.....

 

Three pages later Me and Mayday have a bunch of poo to clean up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was strolling in beautiful downtown Crocker Park Sunday after seeing Iron Man and was depressed, wondering if this project was going to end up in the "abandoned" file....

 

Come on Friday!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

no no no.  We wait until Wednesday:)

 

I'm like most other Clevelanders on these forums - just wanting any good news for this city!  And this could be great (especially if the announcement has something to do with bringing in new businesses)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about you get a tidbit right now?

 

I got an off-the-record news tip yesterday so I can't reveal the source. But the source asked me to call them back this afternoon because a meeting was to be held this morning to round out some details. Considering Tuesday is my papers' deadline day and I had five other articles to write today, I made a call to Stark's PR Guy this morning asking about a big announcement this Friday. PR Guy's response: "First I've heard of us making an announcement this Friday." He promised to make some calls. He called back about midday and said he's still checking.

 

Wrote three articles by noon and submitted two photo cutlines. Things are moving along well for a Tuesday. After my 15-minute lunch, I did as I was asked and called the source to find out the post-meeting details. Got voicemail. Damn.

 

Wrote another article. The front pages of the Cleveland papers were filling up rapidly with other stuff. Called the source back. Got voicemail. Damn. Wrote another article and called PR Guy. He said he hadn't heard back from one of their executives but said he would call back as soon as that happened. Never heard back. Front pages were full and would have to be sent to production soon. I could get a lesser article bumped, but something would have to happen quickly. Called the source again. Voicemail. In my message, I told the source I would need to hear back in 15 minutes if I was going to be able to get an article in this week's paper. The 15 minutes came and went.

 

Cleveland papers will come out Thursday -- without the big scoop.

 

So here's the incomplete information told to me by the source on Monday, prior to today's detail-planning meeting... Stark and Jacobs, the two former arch enemies, are apparently going to make a joint announcement Friday about seeking a downtown-wide tax increment financing district. The source said this TIF would be used to support both developers' developments in the Warehouse District (ie: Jacobs' Public Square skyscraper, Stark's mixed-use "Pesht" development).

 

My take:  I find it hard to believe that a downtown-wide TIF would be sought to support only one part of downtown. I figured Stark would want to see a larger TIF to support his larger downtown development vision he called "Y Cleveland." The bottom of the Y is Scranton Peninsula, the upper-left leg of the Y is the Warehouse District/Pesht and the upper-right leg is Euclid Avenue. If this is what's in the announcement, I'm surprised that only Stark and Jacobs would be involved. Although I'm surprised Stark and Jacobs would even look at each other after what happened between them in their vicious battle over Crocker Park. But then, any good businessman will put aside past squabbles if there's money to be made....

 

But since I couldn't get more details, I don't know if this is exactly what's being sought and what will be announced. So I guess we all have to wait, now, and see what, if anything, transpires.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Most of it is.  And much of the rest is owned by another non-Jacobs/Stark group

 

Will be interesting to see what gets announced on Friday and to to see what it amounts too...thanks for the tidbit!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Typically it would mean redirecting property tax receipts resulting from new/re- development into infrastructure work supporting said new/re- development.  So no new taxes on downtown property owners other than what would would result from higher assessed values of new/re-developed parcels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are they seeking a downtown-wide TIF District which could be used by all developers such as K&D Ameritrust Tower Or are they seeking a downtown-wide TIF which would be available only for their projects

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not know. What you saw in my message is all that I know about this.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Typically it would mean redirecting property tax receipts resulting from new/re- development into infrastructure work supporting said new/re- development.  So no new taxes on downtown property owners other than what would would result from higher assessed values of new/re-developed parcels.

 

But I am assuming that these property tax receipts were already going to fund something else, so does that mean that this would result in cuts elsewhere? Are we merely robbing Paul to pay Peter?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A TIF is a tool to use future gains in taxes to finance the current improvements that will create those gains.  When a public project is carried out, there is an increase in the value of surrounding real estate, and often new investment (new or rehabilitated buildings, for example).  This increased site value and investment creates more taxable property, which increases tax revenues. The increased tax revenues are the "tax increment." Tax Increment Financing dedicates that increased revenue to finance debt issued to pay for the project.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A TIF is a tool to use future gains in taxes to finance the current improvements that will create those gains.  When a public project is carried out, there is an increase in the value of surrounding real estate, and often new investment (new or rehabilitated buildings, for example).  This increased site value and investment creates more taxable property, which increases tax revenues. The increased tax revenues are the "tax increment." Tax Increment Financing dedicates that increased revenue to finance debt issued to pay for the project.

 

I don't want to go too far off, but perhaps others have the same question as mine: What are the disadvantages to a TIF, and who wouldn't want it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A TIF is a tool to use future gains in taxes to finance the current improvements that will create those gains.  When a public project is carried out, there is an increase in the value of surrounding real estate, and often new investment (new or rehabilitated buildings, for example).  This increased site value and investment creates more taxable property, which increases tax revenues. The increased tax revenues are the "tax increment." Tax Increment Financing dedicates that increased revenue to finance debt issued to pay for the project.

 

I don't want to go too far off, but perhaps others have the same question as mine: What are the disadvantages to a TIF, and who wouldn't want it?

 

Typically the school district has the most to lose with a TIF (from a purely monetary standpoint) and usually has to sign off on the agreement and/or be made whole in some other way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...