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Cleveland: Downtown: The Avenue District

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I'm pleased they at least moved the garage access to Lindazzo Ave. instead of Superior. I assume the original plans were for the townhouses to face each other and form a nice little alleyway on Lindazzo but it totally ignored the larger context of the surrounding streetscape. I wish we could rotate the existing ones to face outward as well.

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2 hours ago, KJP said:

The retail space on the ground floor of the Avenue District condo/apartment building at St. Clair and East 12th has been on the market ever since the building opened more than a decade ago. Nothing has ever occupied it. So why should they build more retail space they can't fill??

 

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/1211-Saint-Clair-Ave-NE-Cleveland-OH/12049072/

 

They're not even trying to fill it, they're trying to offload it for $1.3 million as a retail condo.  Without a tenant. 

 

"We have zero desire to manage this... it's not worth the effort... but perhaps you feel differently.  The Avenue District."

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They only tried to lease if for a decade first.  But seriously, we have this exact same stupid conversation every time there is any news on this project.

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I know that this area seems to be right Downtown but it might as well be 1,000 miles away from East 9th Street.  As the residential base builds there will be retail opportunities in the area. 

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4 hours ago, KJP said:

The retail space on the ground floor of the Avenue District condo/apartment building at St. Clair and East 12th has been on the market ever since the building opened more than a decade ago. Nothing has ever occupied it. So why should they build more retail space they can't fill??

 

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/1211-Saint-Clair-Ave-NE-Cleveland-OH/12049072/

 

This is apples to oranges IMO.  That spot is completely isolated.

 

Phase I of Knez literally butts up against a city block with storefronts that already include a brewery and a bank....two very solid anchors for walkability and amenities

 

GOOGLE STREETVIEW:  https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5040407,-81.6851558,3a,75y,252.46h,99.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgIPuYGbKIt7oDsIPxRhSSQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

 

128154017_KnezPhase1.jpg.6a4101a7436cd72e25ee512e851e9f31.jpg

 

 

I personally would be fine with a compromise with something similar to the Langston where some of Chester frontage incorporates retail development, but not all / most.  GOOGLE STREETVIEW:  https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5039427,-81.6742914,3a,75y,60.11h,97.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scF9_x8ZlK3ApjpqFxaibtw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

I know Cleveland isn't a Portland or a Pittsburgh, but it often feels like short term visions when rebuilding our urban fabric new.

 

Edited by MuRrAy HiLL
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5 minutes ago, X said:

They only tried to lease if for a decade first.  But seriously, we have this exact same stupid conversation every time there is any news on this project.

 

What if it's not stupid?  As you point out, people seem to think it's worth discussing.  I feel dangerously off-topic so that's it for me.

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I see it both ways. I do,  however  think this is a pretty crucial pivot point right here though, for downtown. It's Not a huge area being considered... but in context its a full block in a very important place. idk. ugh. Fine.  I say the scale and no retail is a huge miss. I'm sticking with that.  

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I remember seeing somewhere pics of some of the standing structures along Euclid Ave. which were demolished for CSU; weren't there stretches of 2-3 story apartments without storefronts there?  I've been trying to find them, but can't locate any.

 

Point being it's ok for this small section of Superior to be only apartments/condos.  There's plenty of storefronts along Superior to fill in.

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2 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

I remember seeing somewhere pics of some of the standing structures along Euclid Ave. which were demolished for CSU; weren't there stretches of 2-3 story apartments without storefronts there?  I've been trying to find them, but can't locate any.

 

Point being it's ok for this small section of Superior to be only apartments/condos.  There's plenty of storefronts along Superior to fill in.

 

I think those where on Payne. Maybe starting at the now gone point of Sup/Payne 

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17 hours ago, MuRrAy HiLL said:

Man, wish there was some sort of first floor retail in the design since it fronts Superior.  

 

This would raise the value of the other properties too by increasing walkability and amenties. 

It's a townhouse project though.  How would they work retail into the design?  Why would they want to?

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9 minutes ago, viscomi said:

I see it both ways. I do,  however  think this is a pretty crucial pivot point right here though, for downtown. It's Not a huge area being considered... but in context its a full block in a very important place. idk. ugh. Fine.  I say the scale and no retail is a huge miss. I'm sticking with that.  

 

I respectfully disagree, I think no retail will force this development to integrate more fully into downtown, as opposed to trying to make its own enclave. 

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Just now, Paul in Cleveland said:

Here's the view this afternoon looking east from the 26th floor of 1111 Superior (former Eaton Building) ...

 

IMG_8390.thumb.jpg.5e744f74f841166c84d3cd4a5bce2444.jpg

The potential all the way out to E 55th Street...certainly to the Innerbelt at least initially.  Tons of potential business (jobs) and residential development.  Makes sense though given that development is heading north of Playhouse Square.

Edited by Oxford19

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1 hour ago, Paul in Cleveland said:

Here's the view this afternoon looking east from the 26th floor of 1111 Superior (former Eaton Building) ...

 

IMG_8390.thumb.jpg.5e744f74f841166c84d3cd4a5bce2444.jpg

 

The scale is what gets me. This view is from a 28-story building. To the right is Bohn Tower, a 22-story building. And I know that two 23-story residential buildings are just out of view to the right with a 40-story building just out of view to the left. So, in other words, this view is from a cliff, not a staircase.


"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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I used to work on the 30th floor of One Cleveland Center and the view out that side was always so odd, it literally just drops off. It’s like downtown just ends, most people wouldn’t venture east from here that work in the area except the rare trip to Barristers etc. There’s so much work that needs to be done to bring the scale into what it should be... and this piecemeal Avenue development doesn’t seem to be doing it. I wonder if there’s any possibility of completing the other section of the Avenue tower. 

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That's the Erieview urban renewal from the 60's at work.  They demolished a mid-rise neighborhood and replace half of it with high rises, and half with parking lots.  I suspect that as the last few historic renovations are completed, this area will be prime for new construction, but that's still a few years off.

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10 minutes ago, mrclifton88 said:

I used to work on the 30th floor of One Cleveland Center and the view out that side was always so odd, it literally just drops off. It’s like downtown just ends, most people wouldn’t venture east from here that work in the area except the rare trip to Barristers etc. There’s so much work that needs to be done to bring the scale into what it should be... and this piecemeal Avenue development doesn’t seem to be doing it. I wonder if there’s any possibility of completing the other section of the Avenue tower. 

It was a ''no man's land'' and is downtown.

 

This area will eventually be an integrated part of downtown that people will work and live.  The Knez townhomes project isn't designed to bring this area into scale.  It's a piecemeal project yet is only one component of development in this area with tons of potential; the potential is happening.

 

Times have changed if new townhome developments in downtown CLE are creating controversy.  Downtown needs town-homes; everything can't be a high-rise.  

 

That said, would I want to live in a town home fronting Superior Avenue?  No. 

Edited by Oxford19
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^ I have to agree. Given that Superior is far from inviting, and the location psychologically distant, this scale is understandably modest. The complex actually reminds me of residential we've seen sprout up ten years ago in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. For now I'm glad for any positive steps, even though this new stuff is in many aspects underwhelming.    

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18 minutes ago, simplythis said:

What is the building on the next street (St. Clair ) with the Rally Together sign.

I forget the name, but it is a data center

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Cleveland Technology Center. It has been bought, sold and expanded within its existing walls multiple times in the past 10 years...

 


"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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superior is a weird street.  talking about scale, it is one to four story buildings from east 12th all the way to east Cleveland.  most buildings have setbacks and parking lots.  a lot of warehouses and light industrial.  it'll never be a 'neighborhood street', so im fine with this development.  im cool if east 12th north of superior and 13th becomes a spine for residential developments/townhomes and have st clair and euclid be the hubs of retail.

Edited by Whipjacka
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Believe or not, we're all kinda saying the same thing, regarding this Avenue District Phase I and Phase II project.  

 

16 hours ago, viscomi said:

...this is a pretty crucial pivot point right here though, for downtown. It's Not a huge area being considered... but in context its a full block in a very important place.

 

13 hours ago, Oxford19 said:

This area will eventually be an integrated part of downtown that people will work and live.  The Knez townhomes project isn't designed to bring this area into scale.  It's a piecemeal project yet is only one component of development in this area with tons of potential; the potential is happening.

 

That said, would I want to live in a town home fronting Superior Avenue?  No. 

 

Looking at this project, it further cements in a tone for the area all the way to the highway (btw which is how Downtown is defined by the city http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/2010census/downloads/All_SPAs_2014.pdf).  Agreed it is both weird with being the wide Avenue and having industrial buildings, and also ripe for development. 

 

My whole point of seeking retail is not that I personally want retail, but recognize it as a missed opportunity for Downtown and the city to continue to build out its urban fabric.  It reminds me in a way of what Lake South Union, north end of Downtown Seattle, looked like 10 years ago, before it's mind-blowing transformation from light industrial to full mixed-use neighborhood:  https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/amazons-south-lake-union-turf-do-you-recognize-this-place/

 

How it related to a townhome project -- simply having the streetscape and potential amenities in place raises residential property value. 

 

--- 

 

With all this said, will be happy if this project gets built as is?  Of course. 😃

 

But I feel it's fair to criticize a small, surprising pivot point on how the area gets developed in the short term, against how it will look and function 5 to 10 to 20  years from now. 

Edited by MuRrAy HiLL
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Interesting that you use Seattle's Lake South Union as a model. It has a streetcar. Ours almost had an extension of the Waterfront Line amto create a downtown loop. And Forest City Enterprises planned a major development along it that never saw the light of day. But if cell phones had cameras in 1996, I would have snuck a picture or three of thise plans when I met with Hunter Morrison at Cleveland Planning Commission on an unrelated matter.

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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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19 hours ago, Oxford19 said:

 

That said, would I want to live in a town home fronting Superior Avenue?  No. 

 

It would be interesting if the developer could create a London-style private park for the use of the residents - carve out a central square on Lindazzo, giving up six houses, and have the remaining townhouses face it.   A place for young parents and toddlers to enjoy until they move somewhere else would probably be worth a good hike in rents plus you could sell memberships in the park to the existing houses north of Lindazzo.

 

Edit:  The "backs" of the houses, facing Superior and the numbered streets wouldn't HAVE to be pedestrian unfriendly.


There's nothing wrong with optimism, as long as you don't get your hopes up.

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11 minutes ago, simplythis said:

How are those other units doing there. I am not talking about Zaremba BUT i believe they were called MILTON. 

 

All leased up with one operating as an AirBnB.

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37 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

 

All leased up with one operating as an AirBnB.

How Many units are in the Milton. Were those for sale or For lease. And is there a second phase to the Milton?

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22 minutes ago, simplythis said:

How Many units are in the Milton. Were those for sale or For lease. And is there a second phase to the Milton?

 

16. For rent. No.

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21 hours ago, Dougal said:

 

It would be interesting if the developer could create a London-style private park for the use of the residents - carve out a central square on Lindazzo, giving up six houses, and have the remaining townhouses face it.   A place for young parents and toddlers to enjoy until they move somewhere else would probably be worth a good hike in rents plus you could sell memberships in the park to the existing houses north of Lindazzo.

 

Edit:  The "backs" of the houses, facing Superior and the numbered streets wouldn't HAVE to be pedestrian unfriendly.

I think a private park would come across as exclusionary in this day and age but I like the idea. It's a chicken/egg scenario with the population of downtown though in do you build it and they will come or do you wait and build it when the number of families warrant it. I'd hate to have an empty jungle gym in the middle of a neighborhood that consists of empty-nesters and childless millennials but if it brings in families that can afford the price tag of the neighborhood, that'd be awesome!

 

I think we'd all be looking at this area differently if the empty lots and surface lots were filled with the same type of town homes that are there now. A big part of a walkable neighborhood is people in the yards and on the front porches. I love walking down Literary in Tremont past the row houses and down tree lined streets just as much as I love walking down Professor but for much different reasons. Its proximity to downtown makes it walkable to businesses but it's density makes it more like a neighborhood. May be a road diet in that area down Superior makes sense with some bump-outs at crosswalks to add safety and a more intimate feel. I don't know if the number of lanes it has now are necessary for what's planned for that area.

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This kind of town home development would be ideal next to the old cemetery just east of Progressive stadium. I hope that gets developed some day. Lots of surface lots there.

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2 hours ago, Sammy Voz said:

I think a private park would come across as exclusionary in this day and age but I like the idea.

Perhaps, but it would be on private property and really is different only in elevation from a roof garden open to tenants only.  The suggestion was an attempt to 'compensate' the developer for giving up 6 houses to build it.


There's nothing wrong with optimism, as long as you don't get your hopes up.

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