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Cleveland: Downtown: The Avenue District

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KJP

KJP

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Pugu said:

Thanks KJP. on the Geis tower thread, people are saying the avenue district condos will be the test/pilot for site at the NY Spaghetti House. What condo tower are they they referring to?

 

 

The 5-story condo building in the Avenue District is the market test for a proposed, larger condo building a half-mile away at East 9th and Bolivar.

Edited by KJP
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“What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?”
Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock

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tj111
tj111

I talked to a resident there ~2 weeks ago who is friends with some of the management, he said the building is 53% occupied and 86% leased, the difference being the number of new leases they've signed

GISguy
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Current:   2013:  

sonisharri
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Some more angles from today…

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KJP

KJP

Posted
Posted

Web page for the new condo development has gone live. With the schematic designs approved last week, I'm told that construction will start as soon as Geis gets its building permit. Best part is, it doesn't even have to build a foundation for the condos. BTW the development seems to have the name "12th and Ave"...

 

https://www.12thandave.com/

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“What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?”
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GISguy

GISguy

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, KJP said:

Web page for the new condo development has gone live. With the schematic designs approved last week, I'm told that construction will start as soon as Geis gets its building permit. Best part is, it doesn't even have to build a foundation for the condos. BTW the development seems to have the name "12th and Ave"...

 

https://www.12thandave.com/

Well this is gonna be awesome! Looking forward to the progress of 12th an Dave ?

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Clevecane

Clevecane

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Well this is gonna be awesome! Looking forward to the progress of 12th an Dave ?

 

I’m glad I’m not the only one who read 12th an Dave... renderings look good, but I hope they make the gym bigger. Pretty teeny gym from that photo for such a large condo complex. 

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marty15

marty15

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, Clevecane said:

 

I’m glad I’m not the only one who read 12th an Dave... renderings look good, but I hope they make the gym bigger. Pretty teeny gym from that photo for such a large condo complex. 

There is a really nice YMCA across the street.

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KJP

KJP

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, simplythis said:

If Pre-Sales are strong is there any chance whatsoever that they increase the height to even out

with the apartment building

 

No. If pre-sales are strong, they will build the East 9th tower. 

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“What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?”
Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock

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LlamaLawyer

LlamaLawyer

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, jjames0408 said:

One of my realtor friends thinks that 700 is very high for downtown. I'm eagerly awaiting seeing how this goes. 

 

The downtown condo market is so small right now that I'm not sure how someone can say that with confidence. My review of Zillow shows approximately 40 condos currently for sale in the CBD, most of which are under 2,000 sq. feet. That's for an area with a population over 15,000.

 

If downtown Cleveland can be what a lot of us on this forum believe it can be, then it ought to be able to support a few (or more) condos that aren't even $1 mil. There's certainly enough money in the metro area. Let's hope these units get eaten up!

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Larry1962

Larry1962

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, jjames0408 said:

One of my realtor friends thinks that 700 is very high for downtown. I'm eagerly awaiting seeing how this goes. 

Actually considering that townhouses in some other areas of Cleveland that are outside of Downtown is going for $ 500,000.  Then $300,000 to

$ 700,000+ is in the right ball park for DOWNTOWN CONDOS.

IF they are high quality and good location.

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NR

NR

Posted
Posted
20 hours ago, KJP said:

 

No. If pre-sales are strong, they will build the East 9th tower. 

 

With construction expected to begin soon, and the website launched etc.  If pre-sales hit 50% by March(or sometime early in the year), how long are you hearing they'll wait until they start moving forward with the E. 9th tower? 

Also, from what you're hearing, would extremely good/quick sales impact the height of the E. 9th tower(ie.. if things go good would they build a taller tower with more units?)

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WindyBuckeye

WindyBuckeye

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, NR said:

 

With construction expected to begin soon, and the website launched etc.  If pre-sales hit 50% by March(or sometime early in the year), how long are you hearing they'll wait until they start moving forward with the E. 9th tower? 

Also, from what you're hearing, would extremely good/quick sales impact the height of the E. 9th tower(ie.. if things go good would they build a taller tower with more units?)

I would think they would stick with the initial plans of all goes well with the Avenue height.0

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KJP

KJP

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, NR said:

 

With construction expected to begin soon, and the website launched etc.  If pre-sales hit 50% by March(or sometime early in the year), how long are you hearing they'll wait until they start moving forward with the E. 9th tower? 

Also, from what you're hearing, would extremely good/quick sales impact the height of the E. 9th tower(ie.. if things go good would they build a taller tower with more units?)

 

I don't think they'll have to wait until March to know how well these condos are being received. Look at how fast Knez's townhouses are moving. I'm sure Geis thinks it will be offering a better product. Geis should have some good insights by the end of the year.

 

Geis has done a lot of work on the tower project. But a financier has asked Geis for a smaller "pro forma" condo project to demonstrate the viability of the CBD's new-construction condo market. Once they have the data from the Avenue District, Geis will go back to the financier. Depending on the data and the financier's reaction to it, it is possible the final form of the East 9th tower could be impacted by the sales at Avenue District. But if it's going to change, I don't expect it would be bigger. A 24-story condo tower is a big step up from a five-story condo building. If the sales come in more slowly than Geis hopes, the East 9th tower could be smaller or be put on hold for a longer period of time.

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Htsguy

Htsguy

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I don't think they'll have to wait until March to know how well these condos are being received. Look at how fast Knez's townhouses are moving. I'm sure Geis thinks it will be offering a better product. Geis should have some good insights by the end of the year.

 

Geis has done a lot of work on the tower project. But a financier has asked Geis for a smaller "pro forma" condo project to demonstrate the viability of the CBD's new-construction condo market. Once they have the data from the Avenue District, Geis will go back to the financier. Depending on the data and the financier's reaction to it, it is possible the final form of the East 9th tower could be impacted by the sales at Avenue District. But if it's going to change, I don't expect it would be bigger. A 24-story condo tower is a big step up from a five-story condo building. If the sales come in more slowly than Geis hopes, the East 9th tower could be smaller or be put on hold for a longer period of time.

How long can it be put on hold.  Don't they have to develop the property within five years of the date of demolition of the spag house (the date of which I don't recall).

 

By the way I don't trust the word of any "financier" as far as I can throw them.

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KJP

KJP

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Htsguy said:

How long can it be put on hold.  Don't they have to develop the property within five years of the date of demolition of the spag house (the date of which I don't recall).

 

By the way I don't trust the word of any "financier" as far as I can throw them.

 

Yes, Geis has to submit a development plan within five years of the NY Spaghetti House demolition which took place in 2015.

 

Some developers have fostered pretty good partnerships with their financiers.

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marty15

marty15

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, PoshSteve said:

Hmm, not only are they selling condos next door, but now they own the Avenue Tower. I wonder if we will see the apartments sold off again as condos as originally intended, if the new build sells well. 

I’m guessing that’d be their next step if the new phase sells out. They’ll need updating and cleaned up after 10 years of being rentals. Probably providing good income currently. 

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zbaris87

zbaris87

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

Hmm, not only are they selling condos next door, but now they own the Avenue Tower. I wonder if we will see the apartments sold off again as condos as originally intended, if the new build sells well. 

They are going to stay as apartments. Not converting back to condos

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Ruken

Ruken

Posted
Posted (edited)

My only concern, we want to buy downtown, but not a fan of this location at all or the height of the building.  Much rather buy a unit in the tower.  Really hope it’s built.

Edited by Ruken
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marty15

marty15

Posted
Posted (edited)

This is such an obscure location to use as a presumed test market. I would never buy here. Euclid, East 9th corridor, Warehouse D maybe, but not here. It’s a bad test market imo.

 

This is normally an overflow buyer area, or should be. But this is an abnormal market.

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Clevecane

Clevecane

Posted
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, marty15 said:

This is such an obscure location to use as a presumed test market. I would never buy here. Euclid, East 9th corridor, Warehouse D maybe, but not here. It’s a bad test market imo.

 

This is normally an overflow buyer area, or should be. But this is an abnormal market.


I actually enjoyed this location when at Reserve (other than, you know, K&D). Still close to everything—tons of food options at PHS and CSU. Multiple trolleys and buses to take you home when it’s cold out. But also easy access to roads without having to deal with the chaos that is E 9 et al during game nights. All the greatness of downtown with minimal suburban commuter nonsense mucking up your life. 
 

edit: mucking, not mocking. Typing on the redline is always difficult. 

Edited by Clevecane
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WindyBuckeye

WindyBuckeye

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, marty15 said:

This is such an obscure location to use as a presumed test market. I would never buy here. Euclid, East 9th corridor, Warehouse D maybe, but not here. It’s a bad test market imo.

 

This is normally an overflow buyer area, or should be. But this is an abnormal market.

All the more reason if it is successful, then more condos en route.

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Frmr CLEder

Frmr CLEder

Posted
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, marty15 said:

This is such an obscure location to use as a presumed test market. I would never buy here. Euclid, East 9th corridor, Warehouse D maybe, but not here. It’s a bad test market imo.

 

This is normally an overflow buyer area, or should be. But this is an abnormal market.

I view this area as being great for young families and/or empty-nesters, having the advantages of being within the city core, but lacking some of its associated disadvantages. It's not the best location for those who want to be right in the thick of it; it's a bit removed. You have to also assume that as development continues, the property values will continue to increase, so while it may not be for everyone, it can fill a niche.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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KJP

KJP

Posted
Posted

And again, look at the speed and price points at which the Knez townhomes are selling. I would argue that they are in a slightly worse location than the Geis condos. 

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“What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?”
Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock

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Ruken

Ruken

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, KJP said:

And again, look at the speed and price points at which the Knez townhomes are selling. I would argue that they are in a slightly worse location than the Geis condos. 

I mean you’re right they are selling.  I guess it’s solid evidence that anything closer to the middle of everything should have even higher demand.

 

 

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MyTwoSense

MyTwoSense

Posted
Posted
21 hours ago, Ruken said:

My only concern, we want to buy downtown, but not a fan of this location at all or the height of the building.  Much rather buy a unit in the tower.  Really hope it’s built.

 

You're thinking about TODAY.  Buying a home is a marathon, not a sprint.  Think about this, no area in downtown would be though of as residential in 1979, 1989 or 1995.  Then in the later part of the 90s, the Warehouse District sprang out of nowhere.    Yes, if this was a tower, it would be amazing, but to write off the development may be an unwise choice.  This small development could be a gold mine.

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KJP

KJP

Posted
Posted

True. The neighborhood around this site could be very different in 10 years, based on the office and residential development planned and underway.

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“What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?”
Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock

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KJP

KJP

Posted
Posted

I doubt the Crazy Horse is a selling point for the Knez townhomes either. But they're selling.

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“What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?”
Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock

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MyTwoSense

MyTwoSense

Posted
Posted
Just now, Potamus said:

Let's hope so.  I'm not sure the proximity to the Crazy Horse is exactly a selling point for these kind of condos...

 

I disagree.  As I've said before on this forum, people are quick to point out supposed "negatives" you never think outside the box.

 

It's a mixed use neighborhood, the crazy horse has nothing to do with the property itself.  Or what the future value of the individual units will be worth upon completion or 10 years later.

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mrclifton88

mrclifton88

Posted
Posted

I was never a fan of the design of this low-rise hodge-podge neighborhood- though obviously glad for the increased population and the removal of parking lots.  Recently though, I discovered that when you drive East 13th Street going north, and you see the Masthead building on the left and then see the new urban fabric rising eastward: its really jarring!  It's amazing what three or four stories can do. Before it felt like downtown just dropped off at 13th- now there is a completely different feeling.

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