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Cincinnati: Pendleton: Jack Cincinnati Casino

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Looking Back!

 

When the search for a site for the Cincinnati Reds' new ballpark began in the early 1990s, no one had ever heard of Broadway Commons (artist's drawing shown at left.)

 

And the idea of jamming in a new stadium on the riverfront between the one already there and the Crown would have been dismissed as land-use lunacy.

 

Click on link for article.

http://www.cincypost.com/news/1998/stad092898.html

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Frankly, I think the riverfront stadium (vs. Broadway commons) was the correct choice.

I could not see any decent access, nor parking for the Broadway commons location and to top it off, the ballpark was facing the wrong way, if one is looking for urban appeal (lets take another look at the passing traffic on I-71).

 

As to rehabing Over-the-Rhine, I'll leave that for those familiar with the area.

 

 

Sandor

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I think Broadway would have made a much better baseball site, but placing it on the riverfront was the only way to get the economic punch needed for the infrastructure: the street grid extensions, underground parking/flood plain, transit center, etc. all needed the 80+ home games a year to make the garages even somewhat feasible economically.

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I've always been a firm supporter of the Broadway Commons site... I still think they made a mistake. I'd rather have no parking in the immediate vicinity than have a stadium in a sea of parking on valuable riverfront land, separated from downtown by an entrenched freeway.

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I've always been a firm supporter of the Broadway Commons site... I still think they made a mistake. I'd rather have no parking in the immediate vicinity than have a stadium in a sea of parking on valuable riverfront land' date=' separated from downtown by an entrenched freeway.[/quote']

 

So how do you get to the ballpark then?

I believe the Broadway Commons plan was based more on idealism than reality.

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Would riots have been prevented if Broadway Commons was built?

 

Broadway Commons vs. The Wedge

 

A year after the sales tax vote and still with no lease negotiated, Reds ownership began to complain in February 1997 about a Bengals deal to build a football stadium on the river. The Reds cited a clause in their Cinergy Field lease that said the baseball team shall receive "equal treatment" as the Bengals. Bowden threatened a lawsuit - and a possible move to Kentucky or Indianapolis - if the team didn't get a riverfront stadium.

 

Click on link for article.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/reds/gabp/ballparkhistory.html

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I'm a firm believer that it should have been placed at broadway commons.

 

Has the banks materialized? No. Around the Commons site there would have been plenty of buildings available for use as resturants, entertainment, etc. Hell, there would be exisiting entertainment options right there on main street. What happens after a game at Great American ballpark? You walk out of the stadium, past a giant hole where a parking garage is supposed to be, over the top of an expressway, and past a bunch of office buildings that provide no entertainment options for the 30-40,000 people walking past, get in your car and drive to the burbs to eat or drink.

 

The, coupled with the housing boom around OTR and by Broadway Commons would have provided a vibrant community indeed. I want to cry everytime I walk past that sea of parking lots.

 

I suppose I'm biased since I live a few blocks away from what was the Broadway Commons option...

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So how do you get to the ballpark then?

I believe the Broadway Commons plan was based more on idealism than reality.

You do what people do in Chicago or Boston with neighborhood parks.... park a little farther away, then walk. Or take the bus.

 

Maybe it is more idealism than reality, but hell, this is an online forum, I'm allowed to be idealistic!

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Yeah, I do see parallels with Wrigley Field in that Broadway Commons concept, or even the old Crosely Field. Or, for smaller fields, the new minor league parks in Louisville and Dayton.

 

The thing, though, with Wrigley is that you can take the L to the ballpark. Parking around Broadway Commons would be pretty tough..the riverfront site solves that problem.

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So how do you get to the ballpark then?

I believe the Broadway Commons plan was based more on idealism than reality.

You do what people do in Chicago or Boston with neighborhood parks.... park a little farther away' date=' then walk. Or take the bus.

 

Maybe it is more idealism than reality, but hell, this is an online forum, I'm allowed to be idealistic![/quote']

 

You're right, this is a virtual world and you can be what you want to be. :D

Jeff already touched on this, but Chicago and Boston have two thing Cincinnati doesn't have. Some form/variation of mass transit and at least double the population.

 

Besides, what good is having a stadium next to a freeway if you can't reach it! The only access shown is from I-471 NB. :crazy:

Solve that issue and I'll listen to the rest of the arguement for Broadway Commons.

 

Sandor

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Jeff already touched on this' date=' but Chicago and Boston have two thing Cincinnati doesn't have. Some form/variation of mass transit and at least double the population.[/quote']

I see the point, but I disagree slightly. Bus transit is mass transit. Now, I'll certainly agree that the Cincy bus system sucks ass, but with a revamp it could become very useful even without rail. The real key is changing peoples mentalities (ewww, I don't want to take the bus....). And if residential development were spurred in that area, then after some years there could be many people simply living within walking distance of the park.

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Jeff already touched on this' date=' but Chicago and Boston have two thing Cincinnati doesn't have. Some form/variation of mass transit and at least double the population.[/quote']

I see the point, but I disagree slightly. Bus transit is mass transit. Now, I'll certainly agree that the Cincy bus system sucks ass, but with a revamp it could become very useful even without rail. The real key is changing peoples mentalities (ewww, I don't want to take the bus....). And if residential development were spurred in that area, then after some years there could be many people simply living within walking distance of the park.

 

After some years. The Reds weren't not (and probally are still not) in a position to wait for that to happen.

 

Economics (re: $2+ gas) will send people to mass transit, the question that would have to be played out is would people go back to their "old habits" after the crisis passed (then again maybe it won't).

 

People didn't start moving out of cites all at once, and trying to convince everyone to go back will be harder yet.

 

(and my apologies if this was a tangent you didn't want to head off to. :crazy:

 

Sandor

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And if residential development were spurred in that area, then after some years there could be many people simply living within walking distance of the park.

 

I walk to the game, though I imagine I'm the exception. There's actually a good amount of residential activity going on around that area now without the ballpark on Broadway. I can only imagine what would have happened had it gone there.

 

I think I'd be less upset if The Banks were actually being built as promised. It seems like a location with a ready built neighborhood was passed up in favor for building a new neighborhood on the riverfront, which seems very very far away from ever being completed.

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I was one of the people who voted for Broadway Commons. It was obviously the better choice, where it would have been part of the fabric of the city and built sooner with views of Mt. Adams. I am glad to see all the loft development going on, especially around Main Street in OTR, but I can only imagine what the neighborhood would be today if the stadium had been built there.

 

I think we need to look at what it got us on the river. Plenty of business for Northern Kentucky, no Banks development, and although it is not as isolated as Riverfront (I hate to call it Cinergy) the Machine Room had to close during the off-season because it is set off from the city streets.

 

I remember when Broadway failed, I saw Jim Tarbell at the Esquire theatre and mentioned to him it only won in Clifton, Hyde Park, and Mt. Lookout. His reply, "well we know where all the intelligent people live." A pretty good response.

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His reply' date=' "well we know where all the intelligent people live." A pretty good response.[/quote']

 

First off, welcome to the forum, what part of Cincinnati do you live?

 

Second wow that is a shady statement but I like it. Hyde Park and Mt. Lookout are my 2 favorite neighborhoods of Cincinnati.

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I currently live in Anderson (yes I'm a sellout) - I actually had a shotgun Victorian in East Walnut Hills until May of 2000, but my wife was ready for something newer and larger. Unfortunately, it was a little too expensive to stay closer to the city, but as far as suburbs go it is not too far from Mt. Lookout and Hyde Park for night life and restaurants. And we're close to Lunken. I plan on returning to the city in the next few years, but it will take a little more money for what we would like. Oddly, the people we bought our current house from bought the same sized house in Hyde Park with a small yard, and it was twice as much.

 

Anyway, I grew up in Clifton, attended Ohio State and have lived in the Eden Park area as well. And yes, I am a big booster of Cincinnati.

 

I did not mean to get Jim Tarbell in any trouble - his comment was tongue in cheek, and he is one of the true urbanists we have so we need to stay on his side.

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From the Enquirer:

 

City swung, missed on Broadway Commons

 

BY PAUL DAUGHERTY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

Broadway Commons could have been Cincinnati's Wrigleyville, but we blew it. Voters, politicians, the power elite of Fourth Street. All of us. We could have had a retro park in a retro area of town, complete with distinct architecture and a center field that opened to the striking green hillside of Mount Adams. We'd have had an entertainment district within walking distance.

 

No link available for full aritcle.

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I don't follow the Cincy stuff much, so forgive me for beating a dead horse:

 

Every time I drive thru Cincy, I am astounded that they would block off views of the river with 3 large sports venues. If they had capped the highway, built some more residential and planned a large park along the river, Cincy would have to be considered as one of the prettiest downtowns in the country.

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All I can say is Amen, Amen, Amen - Paul knows his stuff.  A lot of people worked hard to get people to support Broadway, but the fact that the Reds were against it as well as big business probably doomed the campaign.  Only Clifton, Hyde Park, and Mt. Lookout supported it by vote count.  They went so far as to bring in a "developer" who wanted to reserve Broadway for a 1000 housing units (or something ridiculous) just before the election.  The project conveniently disappeared after the vote.

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I don't follow the Cincy stuff much, so forgive me for beating a dead horse:

 

Every time I drive thru Cincy, I am astounded that they would block off views of the river with 3 large sports venues. If they had capped the highway, built some more residential and planned a large park along the river, Cincy would have to be considered as one of the prettiest downtowns in the country.

 

That's what "the Banks" is trying to do.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Doc: Reds need a Wrigleyville

BY PAUL DAUGHERTY | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER

April 16, 2008

 

CINCINNATI - On a 50-degree Tuesday night with the wind blowing 20 miles an hour, the Chicago Cubs played baseball in front of a full house at Wrigley Field. On a 60-degree Thursday afternoon in the full sunshine two weeks ago, the Cincinnati Reds worked before a crowd of 12,000.

 

Click on link for article.

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"The Reds will never go Disney to pull in fans. The town’s temperament wouldn’t allow it."

 

Isn't that what they already did when they went to the new stadium?  I can't stand the goofy new mascots like Gapper and Rosie Red, or the pop music challenge (or whatever it's called).  Then they ruined the classic Mr Red Race and added ridiculous sound effects (who isn't tired of the Foghorn Leghorn voice and that Animal House clip that is 30 seconds long?).  I love the Reds, and I go to at least 15 games a year, but now I miss the simple charms of the ugly old Riverfront Stadium.

 

/EDIT: I totally agree with everything else in that article, though.

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"The Reds will never go Disney to pull in fans. The town’s temperament wouldn’t allow it."

 

Isn't that what they already did when they went to the new stadium?  I can't stand the goofy new mascots like Gapper and Rosie Red, or the pop music challenge (or whatever it's called).  Then they ruined the classic Mr Red Race and added ridiculous sound effects (who isn't tired of the Foghorn Leghorn voice and that Animal House clip that is 30 seconds long?).  I love the Reds, and I go to at least 15 games a year, but now I miss the simple charms of the ugly old Riverfront Stadium.

 

/EDIT: I totally agree with everything else in that article, though.

 

I agree, GABP was definitely built for the non-baseball fan. I just roll my eyes at the cheerleaders and very tacky smokestacks. Maybe if they were more authentic . . .the smokestacks and cheerleaders.

 

Saying that, the field is gorgeous and if you can filter out the carnival aspects, the sightlines make for a good place to watch Dunn strikeout.

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I can't stand the goofy new mascots like Gapper and Rosie Red, or the pop music challenge (or whatever it's called).

 

The Rosie Reds has actually been around for a decent amount of time.  This is the club's first way of really paying constant tribute.  The other two mascots are self-explanatory and together the three make for a good trifecta (channeling Dick Vitale).

http://www.rosiereds.org/main.htm

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^ I stand corrected then.  I'm shocked that I'd never heard of that, and I always assumed that "Rosie Red" was just the equivalent of Minnie Mouse or Daisy Duck; creating a new character by simply making a female version of a popular male character.  I actually like Redlegs a lot for some reason (maybe it's that sweet moustache).  Gapper is just too similar to mascots like the Philadelphia Fanatic (Phanatic?) for me, and I'm afraid it makes it look like we ripped off the more famous Mr. Met with Mr. Red, when I believe Mr. Red was actually first. 

 

Saying that, the field is gorgeous and if you can filter out the carnival aspects, the sightlines make for a good place to watch Dunn strikeout.

 

Agreed.  It is a great field.  I also enjoy seeing the rolling hills of KY, along with the historic buildings of Newport and Covington in the background, though I wonder if the view will be so pleasing if/when Ovation begins construction.

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I too like Mr. Redleg the best...I love the older look/feel of it.  I also agree that Gapper is kind of a joke.  It seems to be the Reds version of XU's blue blob (oy vey).  Oh btw, I wouldn't worry about Ovation ruining our scenic view any time soon.  That project is a pipe dream.

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Oh btw, I wouldn't worry about Ovation ruining our scenic view any time soon.  That project is a pipe dream.

 

If they could just turn over the old streets and rip out the unused telephone polls, I'll be happy.

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I also agree that Gapper is kind of a joke.  It seems to be the Reds version of XU's blue blob (oy vey). 

 

There is nothing wrong with the Blue Blob.  Gapper can only dream of being so cool. 

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What used to be here and why is it a massive parking lot today?

 

This used to be here...

MtAdamsInclinefrom4thVine_1920s.jpg

 

Lots of warehouses and residential dwellings for their workers.  I-71 eventually blasted through here and I would suspect they went crazy with demos much like they did with the Westend/Queensgate.

 

On a somewhat related note, I was recently told that the particular stretch of I-71 in this area was one of the most expensive stretches of interstate ever constructed due to the engineering feats that were required to hold back Mt. Adams.

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Thanks for the graphic. I was looking up a pic of Broadway commons but  couldn't find one. Honestly, I don't think anyone should be bitter about the buildings being gone. They were probably low quality or an environmental nuisance. Plus, better that site than somewhere closer to the CBD.

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Lots of warehouses and residential dwellings for their workers. I-71 eventually blasted through here and I would suspect they went crazy with demos much like they did with the Westend/Queensgate.

 

I-71 was too far East to be blamed for the clearance of the Broadway Commons site. It might have been selective/random clearance of old buildings.  Was still going on in the late 60's

<a href="http://www.historicaerials.com/?poi=3593"><img src="http://www.historicaerials.com/featuredPOIImage.aspx?poi=3593" /><br />Aerial photography from the past to the present!</a>

 

 

On a somewhat related note, I was recently told that the particular stretch of I-71 in this area was one of the most expensive stretches of interstate ever constructed due to the engineering feats that were required to hold back Mt. Adams.

 

probably an embellishment. There are much more expensive stretches of interstate construction, esp in mountain areas. FWIW the Mt Adams wall was constructed in the late 70's only after the ramps to/from I-471 were constructed and the hillside started to slip away.

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Broadway Commons use to be a rail yard similar to Queensgate, and before the development of Union Terminal this site was also considered for the terminal

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