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Ohio Census / Population Trends

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I said "fairly unique", which may not have been the best phrasing, but without finding hard numbers I've found a few references to Cincinnati having a worse landslide problem than anywhere else, so "uniquely bad" may be correct.

 

e.g. this quote from a 2007 Cincinnati Post (RIP) article:

Quote

Hamilton County leads nation in per capita repair costs
Shelly Whitehead, Post staff reporter

U.S. Geological Survey data indicates that more money is spent per capita to repair landslide damage in Hamilton County than any other place in the nation. But most of those slides rarely make headlines.  Instead, Cincinnati geologist Tim Agnello said, the damage often occurs gradually from slower-moving landslides that affect a handful of properties at a time.  For instance, one home’s foundation along an unstable slope may crack this year; the backyard deck may separate from a neighboring home the following year.Often, property owners remain unaware that sliding land is at the root of their problems, so they repair damages as they occur without realizing that their difficulties will only worsen as the land beneath their homes continues to move. But, sometimes damage is both relatively sudden and dramatic. Montague Road (northen Kentucky), for instance, which runs along the northern border of the Views site, was closed for five months eight years ago after a landslide covered the road with dirt and debris and triggered lawsuits between property owners and the city of Park Hills, Ky.  And landslides regularly close sections of Ky. 8 after a sudden movement of the steep slopes along the riverside route washes mud and trees onto the highway.In Mount Adams, a massive system of tunnels, pillars and underground cables stands as testament to just how much damage can occur when the land beneath an unsecured construction-laden slope starts to slide. The $30 million Mount Adams stabilization project was built after construction on Interstate 471 in 1973 sliced into the “toe” of the hill and triggered a landslide that cracked foundations all along Baum Street, ultimately wiping out 16 homes.  Agnello said other less dramatic landslide areas are scattered across Cincinnati (Greater), including along Maryland Avenue in Price Hill where slides forced closure of the road’s upper portion in the mid-1980s.

 

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4 hours ago, troeros said:

Let's not forget Toronto back in the early 70s was similar in size to the 3C's. 

 

Not saying it will happen, but something like the CVG Amazon airhub could be a major catalyst for future growth of online distribution centers and could create a ripple effect in the region with new job opportunities and regional growth. 

 

Again, not saying either of the 3C's will become this mega city like Toronto, but job growth results in population growth which results in new development growth. 

 

The Amazon air hub could be the stone that creates a much larger ripple of new corporations moving down to the cincinnati region to be closer to Amazon air hub and thus result in new jobs and potentially new growth.

 

 

Toronto was always a different animal than the 3Cs were. It was always the main financial center of English speaking Canada as well as possessing the right geographic characteristics that no other Canadian cities had. It was primed to be the hub it became today. Montreal was that hub but the whole French language thing and the rift between Quebec and the rest of Canada hurt its growth, I believe.

 

The interesting thing with the fast growth cities or faster growing cities of the last 20 years seems to be that they almost all center around a state capital and large research university combination in the town. Austin, Columbus, Salt Lake, Raleigh/Durham, Nashville, Atlanta all fit this mold. Throw in Indy and Denver who may not have the large research university in the city but have one within an hour drive and they all fit the mold.


Outside of say Charlotte, how many other key cities have that type of growth? Yes, there are Dallas and Houston but Texas is its own unique animal so I discount that.

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23 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Toronto was always a different animal than the 3Cs were. It was always the main financial center of English speaking Canada as well as possessing the right geographic characteristics that no other Canadian cities had. It was primed to be the hub it became today. Montreal was that hub but the whole French language thing and the rift between Quebec and the rest of Canada hurt its growth, I believe.

 

The French language thing was a disaster for Montreal and Quebec.  The English language not only dominates Canada but increasingly the entire world.  People in India and China and the Arab countries are learning English, not French.  

 

Plus, many people in Quebec simply do not know English.  At all.  Maybe they can count to 10 but that's about it.  

 

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3 hours ago, 10albersa said:

 

I'm still wary of this as a large-scale job catalyst (although I had a post last week about how it potentially could lead to rail or better transit).  The jobs the airhub creates will be mainly jobs that will get lost in the automation shuffle, along with those residual businesses that are locating here because of the airhub.  There will be a small number of Amazon managers and the residual companies also will have those managers, but long-term, those warehouse jobs will be gone.

 

Memphis is currently, by far, the #1 cargo airport in the United States.  As we all know, Memphis used to be Tennessee's top city but keeps sinking relative to Nashville and the rest of the United States.  

 

In coming years CVG will likely surpass Memphis in tonnage but not employees because Prime Air will have strict size and weight limits and won't deal at all with hazardous cargo or international orders.  UPS, FedEx, and DHL all deal with oversized shipments, international, hazardous, etc.  Plus there are collect orders and all sorts of complications like that.  

 

Prime Air will be much more automated because packages will be limited in size and weight, there will be no international crap to worry about, no handwritten bills, etc.  That slashes the necessary workforce because it takes a lot of manpower and training to deal with the unusual stuff that the other carriers have to deal with.  

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

The French language thing was a disaster for Montreal and Quebec.  The English language not only dominates Canada but increasingly the entire world.  People in India and China and the Arab countries are learning English, not French.  

 

Plus, many people in Quebec simply do not know English.  At all.  Maybe they can count to 10 but that's about it.   

 

I spent about a month on and off in Montreal once during a project. It's surprising how many people only speak French, and there's a significant percentage that are insulted/annoyed when visitors can't speak it. I could certainly understand if this has somewhat stunted the city's growth. In that regard it's not unlike Cincinnati, wherein the old school lifelong dynasties running the show seem to be perfectly okay with minimal growth so long as it keeps the aura of the place on an even keel.

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1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

The French language thing was a disaster for Montreal and Quebec.  The English language not only dominates Canada but increasingly the entire world.  People in India and China and the Arab countries are learning English, not French.  

 

Plus, many people in Quebec simply do not know English.  At all.  Maybe they can count to 10 but that's about it.  

 

Funny thing is, if you speak to a Frenchman (in English) they say that when they go to Montreal  they can't understand the French Canadians because they quack like ducks!

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1 hour ago, Ram23 said:

 

I spent about a month on and off in Montreal once during a project. It's surprising how many people only speak French, and there's a significant percentage that are insulted/annoyed when visitors can't speak it. I could certainly understand if this has somewhat stunted the city's growth. In that regard it's not unlike Cincinnati, wherein the old school lifelong dynasties running the show seem to be perfectly okay with minimal growth so long as it keeps the aura of the place on an even keel.

 

I have only visited Montreal once, in 2002.  A guy came up on the sidewalk and asked me for directions in French.  I don't know why this guy profiled me as someone who not only a) was from there b) spoke French.  We quickly realized we were completely unable to communicate and we walked our separate ways.  

 

Outside of Quebec, French is spoken on various Caribbean islands and several 20~ million population African countries.  So they really (along with Spain) struck out as compared to England when it came to colonizing areas that rose to dominance in the 20th century.  

 

Today, much of London's rise as the center of European commerce, and by many measures the world's most important city, is due to New York (also arguably the world's most important city) doing business in English.  Thanks to India and Australia and Hong Kong, plus many Japanese and Koreans learning English after WWII, China and smaller SE Asian countries have all been forced to learn English.  

 

If Mao had never existed and an open China had risen in the 1950s and 1960s alongside Japan and Korea, English would play a lesser role in the Far East.  

 

Also, English got a foothold in the Arab world when oil was struck and the U.S. helped form ARAMCO.  

 

 

Edited by jmecklenborg

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Here's a place selling "pneus neufs" (new tires) and yes the P is silent. I'm sure one of them will fit the Colorado Z71 4x4 parked out front. Check out the Hocking County-esque scenery. 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7830576,-74.1064645,3a,75y,270h,80.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgzv_4JAmWIUYRTmXCgtKqA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Edited by GCrites80s

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On a Rome-Toronto flight last year, I sat next to a young English-speaking couple who had recently moved from Montreal to Toronto. They moved because they said they were treated as lesser people by the Quebecois because they were not fluent in French. 

 

I have an older (70s) friend who lived in Toronto most of his life. When he was a kid in the 1950s, he said he often heard adult Toronto residents lament the city being smaller than their fellow Great Lakes cities, and that they wished Toronto was more like Chicago, Detroit and Cleveland. A friend of mine was a teenager in the 1960s when his family went to Canada for a vacation. They went through Toronto nonstop in both directions on their way to/from Montreal, then Canada's largest city. On their way back to Cleveland, while traveling through Toronto again, my friend asked his parents why they weren't stopping to see that city. His parents said about Toronto "Oh you don't want to go there..."

 

The 1970 Census would be the last time that the City of Cleveland would be more populous than the primary city of Toronto and Cleveland-Akron would have more population than Toronto-Hamilton. That was in my lifetime (I'm 51), showing how fast the fortunes of a city can change. Toronto rebuilt its city around transit and benefitted from the 1970s exodus of banking institutions and other corporate headquarters from Montreal during the Liberte Quebec turmoil. Cleveland's neglect of transit, building of highways, sprawl, racial tensions, and massive loss of industry in the 1960s-1980s are all well noted.

Edited by KJP
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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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Another Canadian city that grew massively was Vancouver B.C., probably the most beautiful city in N.A. Now, they greatly benefited from the exodus from Hong Kong and built a subway not long after Cleveland rejected that idea.  Both Toronto and Vancouver took advantage of lucky breaks, but as they say you make your luck.  Cleveland has just suffered from very poor leadership.

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7 hours ago, jdm00 said:

Not sure how this relates to census trends, but I love Montreal. 

 

 

Me too. I spent a week there in 2017. Easily one my favorite cities I've ever been too. Most people I interacted with were fine if I just said something like "English Please." I only ran into a few people who struggled with English but everyone else in the city seemed to be bilingual. It may be different in rural Quebec though. 

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I'm right there with you.  Had no issues with the language, and it's a fantastic place.  Easily a top-10 (maybe top-5) city for me.  

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When I was in Amsterdam a few years back, I stayed in a hostel and met people from all over the world- France, Germany, Australia, Brazil, India...

 

The only person I met who I had trouble communicating with was a dude from Montreal who spoke almost no English at all. How can someone be a resident of a major cosmopolitan city in an English dominant country and not speak even basic English? I have been to Montreal a few times and never had difficult communicating or getting around, so this encounter really surprised me. 

Edited by edale

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22 hours ago, cfdwarrior said:

https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2018/05/cleveland_is_nations_27th_most.html   I wish I could have experienced the density of Cleveland in the 1940's and 50's...

 

That was something the majority endured because it was necessary at the time (WWII, and the postwar era when the rural migration did not reverse), not because they chose or enjoyed it.

 

As they endured it, they worked to get away from it.

 

City planners and boosters err when they romanticize density.   

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6 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

That was something the majority endured because it was necessary at the time (WWII, and the postwar era when the rural migration did not reverse), not because they chose or enjoyed it.

 

As they endured it, they worked to get away from it.

 

City planners and boosters err when they romanticize density.   

 

It's funny how people tried so hard to get away from it and then spend the rest of their lives reminiscing about the "good old days" when neighbors knew each other, everyone sat on their front porches, and you could walk down to the corner store and get a Coke. And then every year for vacation they visit dense cities and resort towns trying to recreate the magic. And then they send their kids to a dense college town and the kid remembers those years in that dense college town as the best years of their lives. And the cycle begins anew. 

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People get too hung up on the word "density" and immediately assume that people are advocating for Manhattan-style tenements everywhere. It's not hard to be both urban and allow for some of that stereotypical American "breathing room". Just build more Lakewoods and Shaker Heights.

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“To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”

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When I talk about density, I didn't mean NYC type density, but what Cleveland once had.  Yes it is dense in certain areas, but we have definitely lost some very dense areas for various reasons.. (Photos from KJP and Mendo)

Screen Shot 2019-05-30 at 6.05.34 PM.png

Screen Shot 2019-05-30 at 6.05.58 PM.png

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People used to understand the difference naturally, but then Right-Wing think tanks came up with rhetoric that makes some people paranoid when they hear the word density. 

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Like density? How about Slavic Village circa 1950?

 

876fc8082aebf627b7426026eb350ab8.jpg

 

7859eb3c4298e747b687cb1f72cb398b.jpg

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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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What I always notice about old city pictures is just how awful the cities look. There are few trees, little to no pedestrian infrastructure, manufacturing pollution... it’s no wonder people wanted to leave.  We don’t build density like we used to, but we also don’t build completely sterile, dirty places with no thought for residents anymore, either.  

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3 minutes ago, punch said:

I see a lot of trees, there were more trees in Cleveland in the 40s, than there are today

 

I’m not just referring to the above. I think most residential neighborhoods have far more landscaping and trees now. 

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Cleveland has never been dense, at least not on a large scale. Have there been a few block sections of higher density, of course, but most of the city is, and always has been detached single family and 2 family homes. The city was however overcrowded (different than high density) and people did understandably want to escape that. Don’t view that as an escape from density though, as it was not. 

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8 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

That was something the majority endured because it was necessary at the time (WWII, and the postwar era when the rural migration did not reverse), not because they chose or enjoyed it.

 

As they endured it, they worked to get away from it.

 

City planners and boosters err when they romanticize density.   

 

Maybe it's time to update this opinion given all that's happening in Downtown, UC, or the near Westside, with gobs of new apartment and townhouse developments being built.

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5 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

What I always notice about old city pictures is just how awful the cities look. There are few trees, little to no pedestrian infrastructure, manufacturing pollution... it’s no wonder people wanted to leave.  We don’t build density like we used to, but we also don’t build completely sterile, dirty places with no thought for residents anymore, either.  

The concept of cities has changed. They were utilitarian back in the day as people lived there because they had no choice. Now, people live in the city as part of a lifestyle choice and cities have been able to reinvent themselves because of it.  As you point out, the buildings may not have as much character but the goal is to connect it with the street now. In the old days, the street was not meant for people.

 

3 hours ago, JSC216 said:

Cleveland has never been dense, at least not on a large scale. Have there been a few block sections of higher density, of course, but most of the city is, and always has been detached single family and 2 family homes. The city was however overcrowded (different than high density) and people did understandably want to escape that. Don’t view that as an escape from density though, as it was not. 

Cleveland is very dense. Shaker Square, Van Aken, Ohio City, Cleve Heights, Lakewood, Brooklyn, etc are all example of very dense neighborhoods. There are a lot more buildings that are 3-10 stories in Cleveland neighborhoods than any city in Ohio.

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14 hours ago, E Rocc said:

City planners and boosters err when they romanticize density.   

 

What they are romanticizing is the amenities that density brings - lots of retail options in a short (usually walking) distance, frequent transit service, safety in numbers. Nothing wrong romanticizing those things.

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All the things that we love about cities can only happen when cities are built at a pedestrian-scale -- i.e. with density and mixed use.

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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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Also remember that a lot of people can't help but extrapolate any time things change even a little bit. Like if another person gets on a train, then everyone will have their cars taken and be forced onto the train.

 

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My block is all single family homes and everyone has a back yard and a front porch. It is quite dense by American standards but doesn't feel stifling at all. The lots are only 25' wide and everybody parks on the street for the most part. When every house doesn't have huge side yards and a driveway you can build quite dense single-family neighborhoods that don't feel like you're on top of each other. 

 

My old neighborhood in West Philly was also quite dense, with a mix of 3 to 5 story apartments, corner stores, bars and restaurants, and many, many two-family twin houses. It was the greenest place I've ever lived, and I grew up way out in the country in Southern Ohio. 

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Look at Yellow Springs. I don't think the village has a single apartment building, and it's still one of the most vibrant, walkable, and urban places in the state. 


“To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”

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1 hour ago, BigDipper 80 said:

Look at Yellow Springs. I don't think the village has a single apartment building, and it's still one of the most vibrant, walkable, and urban places in the state. 

 

Yellow springs is pretty small though. Their entire downtown is maybe slightly larger than downtown Loveland. 

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