Ohio Census / Population Trends & Lists

[Oxford19]

Just now, Pugu said:

isn't akron MSA 2 counties---summit and portage? what's the third?

Right, I get some of my MSAs and, in this case Cleveland's CSA, overlap at times...so Akron MSA grew by 478!  Even better.

 

Thanks!

Edited May 23, 2019 by Oxford19

[Ucgrad2015]

I looked at a few of Cincinnati’s peer cities (Pittsburgh and St.Louis) if I am looking correctly Cincinnati now has more people than Pittsburgh and is only a few hundred shy of St.louis.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Ucgrad2015
Typo

[Magyar]

They didn't list Kilbourne*, nor East Claridon* again?!? Bastards!
(* - Just joking. Neither Kilbourne, nor East Claridon are incorporated, so they won't be listed.)
But hey, my Zip Code center (Marengo) is now 755 out of 931 incorporated communities in Ohio. While my phone exchange (Ashley) is  at 446.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Magyar

[GCrites]

Most of Scioto County is unincorporated besides Portsmouth and New Boston, strangely. So no Wheelersburg, Lucasville, West Portsmouth or The Furnace (Franklin Furnace) on the list.

[Magyar]

5 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Most of Scioto County is unincorporated besides Portsmouth and New Boston, strangely. So no Wheelersburg, Lucasville, West Portsmouth or The Furnace (Franklin Furnace) on the list.

Could be worse. If this was UrbanPennsylvania, we would have a hell of a time deciphering the population trends along the Philly Main Line, because there are only two boroughs (Narberth & Malvern) the rest of the area is unincorporated. 

[aderwent]

I'm planning on doing some looking at the stats of the three Cs and their peers. I was wondering what this group of experts and enthusiasts would consider the three Cs' peers.

 

Austin

Charlotte

Hampton Roads

Indianapolis

Kansas City

Las Vegas

Milwaukee

Nashville

Orlando

Pittsburgh

Portland

Providence

Sacramento

San Antonio

San Jose

 

Would any of you cross any of those off as peers? Add any other cities?

[cbussoccer]

10 minutes ago, aderwent said:

I'm planning on doing some looking at the stats of the three Cs and their peers. I was wondering what this group of experts and enthusiasts would consider the three Cs' peers.

 

Austin

Charlotte

Hampton Roads

Indianapolis

Kansas City

Las Vegas

Milwaukee

Nashville

Orlando

Pittsburgh

Portland

Providence

Sacramento

San Antonio

San Jose

 

Would any of you cross any of those off as peers? Add any other cities?

 

You could possibly add Raleigh-Durham, St. Louis, New Orleans, and Salt Lake City to the list if you are basing your analysis on MSA size. 

 

If you were to remove any cities, I would say Las Vegas and Orlando would be the top choices to knock off the list. While they are somewhat similar in size, the nature of the cities are vastly different than the rest of the list (Disney, beaches, and debauchery). 

 

This all depends on how you want to define "peer city" though. You could argue that true peer cities of the 3Cs should focused more on Midwestern cities. Population trends in Charlotte, for example, are going to be driven by factors that are much different than Midwestern cities, whereas Indy and Columbus are dealing with many of the same natural factors. I would consider narrowing the list to Indianapolis, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and possibly Nashville. 

 

[Robuu]

1 hour ago, cbussoccer said:

This all depends on how you want to define "peer city" though. You could argue that true peer cities of the 3Cs should focused more on Midwestern cities. Population trends in Charlotte, for example, are going to be driven by factors that are much different than Midwestern cities, whereas Indy and Columbus are dealing with many of the same natural factors. I would consider narrowing the list to Indianapolis, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and possibly Nashville. 

 

Don't know how much I agree with this, but definitely not for Columbus. Columbus should be looking at southern and western cities, especially capitals, as its growth pattern and built environment most resembles those. Oklahoma City and Salt Lake City should be on the list for Columbus. Probably also Atlanta.

 

Cleveland should have Detroit on there. Perhaps also Chicago and Toronto as more "aspirational peers." Cleveland and Columbus could both add Minneapolis.

 

Cleveland and Cincinnati should have St. Louis, as you mentioned. And scratch the Californian and Texan cities for them. Add Baltimore. Cincinnati could add New Orleans and along those "aspirational peer" lines maybe Philadelphia.

[cbussoccer]

1 minute ago, Robuu said:

 

Don't know how much I agree with this, but definitely not for Columbus. Columbus should be looking at southern and western cities, especially capitals, as its growth pattern and built environment most resembles those. Oklahoma City and Salt Lake City should be on the list for Columbus. Probably also Atlanta.

 

Cleveland should have Detroit on there. Perhaps also Chicago and Toronto as more "aspirational peers." Cleveland and Columbus could both add Minneapolis.

 

Cleveland and Cincinnati should have St. Louis, as you mentioned. And scratch the Californian and Texan cities for them. Add Baltimore. Cincinnati could add New Orleans and along those "aspirational peer" lines maybe Philadelphia.

 

Columbus should be compared to Atlanta, Cleveland to Chicago and Toronto, and Cincinnati to Philadelphia? What are you smoking this early in the morning? lol

[CMHOhio]

I could see arguments for all of the above (Cleveland and Toronto being Great Lakes metropolises, Cincinnati and Philly having dense, historic neighborhoods abutting the CBD, etc). Since no real parameters were given, comparison cities is pretty subjective. For Columbus, I don't see much similarity with OKC, SLC and ATL other than them being rapidly growing state capitals. Rather, I would compare Columbus to Austin and Indianapolis - maybe Madison, Raleigh, and Minneapolis as well. Again, this is all pretty subjective.

[KFM44107]

Just now, CMHOhio said:

I could see arguments for all of the above (Cleveland and Toronto being Great Lakes metropolises, Cincinnati and Philly having dense, historic neighborhoods abutting the CBD, etc). Since no real parameters were given, comparison cities is pretty subjective. For Columbus, I don't see much similarity with OKC, SLC and ATL other than them being rapidly growing state capitals. Rather, I would compare Columbus to Austin and Indianapolis - maybe Madison, Raleigh, and Minneapolis as well. Again, this is all pretty subjective.

Columbus and Indiana are very similiar in their growth patterns. Both in flat areas with no real boundary for outward growth (mountains or a lake). Both are also state capitols. I've never been to Austin so im unsure what that's like. 

 

Cleveland and Chicago (or Toronto to a smaller level) are similiar in their patterns. Cleveland is just a micro version. Though look at Toronto in 1970 and you could have mistaken it for Cleveland, Lol. 

 

I think St. Louis and Cinci are perfect comparisons.  Their buildout and their history of being industrial river boom towns is comparable. So is the fact that they both have many brick structures in their neighborhoods. The only difference is cinci's hilly geography. 

 

 

[Robuu]

56 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

 

Columbus should be compared to Atlanta, Cleveland to Chicago and Toronto, and Cincinnati to Philadelphia? What are you smoking this early in the morning? lol

 

They're cities to look at for inspiration, because those are cities that have risen to a higher level using similar assets to what the Ohio cities have.

 

Atlanta is a state capital that went from a midsized city to a tier-2 city in recent decades, as Columbus aspires to do. Chicago and Toronto are the most successful Great Lakes cities. Philadelphia is a gritty historic city that has leveraged its historic architecture for revitalization.

 

They're not perfect comparisons, but if you're only looking at cities on your level then you're missing opportunities. Watching what higher-tier cities are doing with similar assets is an important tool for growth,

Edited May 24, 2019 by Robuu

[cbussoccer]

2 minutes ago, CMHOhio said:

I could see arguments for all of the above (Cleveland and Toronto being Great Lakes metropolises, Cincinnati and Philly having dense, historic neighborhoods abutting the CBD, etc). Since no real parameters were given, comparison cities is pretty subjective. For Columbus, I don't see much similarity with OKC, SLC and ATL other than them being rapidly growing state capitals. Rather, I would compare Columbus to Austin and Indianapolis - maybe Madison, Raleigh, and Minneapolis as well. Again, this is all pretty subjective.

 

A peer is something or someone of the same rank or status. You don't need real parameters to realize that Toronto and Cleveland are not really comparable from a population standpoint. 

[cbussoccer]

Just now, Robuu said:

They're cities to look at for inspiration, because those are cities that have risen to a higher level using similar assets to what the Ohio cities have.

 

Atlanta is a state capital that went from a midsized city to a tier-2 city in recent decades, as Columbus aspires to do. Chicago and Toronto are the most successful Great Lakes cities. Philadelphia is a gritty historic city that has leveraged its historic architecture for revitalization.

 

They're not perfect comparisons, but if you're only looking at cities on your level then you're missing opportunities. Watching what higher-tier cities are doing with similar assets is an important tool for growth,

 

An "inspiration" is not a peer. 

 

Atlanta has been the main city in South for a very long time. Chicago, Toronto, and Philadelphia are 3 of the top cities in the North America. Cleveland and Cincinnati are not even close. 

 

The point of the comparison is to track how the 3Cs are progressing in terms of population growth with other similar cities in their peer group. Cleveland and Chicago are not peers any more than NYC and Providence are peers. 

 

Now, if you want to look at how those cities got to where they are and compare that to how the 3Cs are currently tracking, I suppose that could be appropriate. However, comparing the progress of both at the present day is somewhat useless.

 

 

[Robuu]

1 minute ago, cbussoccer said:

Now, if you want to look at how those cities got to where they are and compare that to how the 3Cs are currently tracking, I suppose that could be appropriate. However, comparing the progress of both at the present day is somewhat useless.

Fine, I mean you're the one doing the analysis so you get to decided how macro-level you want to get or what the timeline you're looking at is. But in terms of assets, opportunities, trajectories measured in decades, you could expand what you are looking at in the way I described.

 

I'm not making any case that the present situations are closely comparable.

[cbussoccer]

7 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

Columbus and Indiana are very similiar in their growth patterns. Both in flat areas with no real boundary for outward growth (mountains or a lake). Both are also state capitols. I've never been to Austin so im unsure what that's like. 

 

 

There are two big differences I've noticed between Columbus/Indy and Austin. One is the highway system. Both Columbus and Indy have a pretty well laid out highway system, while Austin's kind of sucks. It's very difficult to get from one end of Austin to the other, but not so much in Columbus or Indy. This is going to create some fairly significant problems for Austin as it's population continues to boom. In fact, it's already quite the headache. 

 

The second main difference is the fact that Austin is fairly close to San Antonio, a city with a larger population. You can get to downtown San Antonio from downtown Austin in a little over an hour. The southern Austin suburbs are only about 30-45 minutes from the northern San Antonio suburbs. This exists to a smaller degree with Columbus and Dayton, and doesn't exist at all with Indy. 

 

Also, Austin does have some hilly land that affects development, but I would say it's not quite like Cincinnati. 

[Robuu]

Cincinnati's hill situation is fairly unique, because the landslide situation is so bad. Like San Francisco-type development would just be impossible because the soil is so unstable.

[Dougal]

1 minute ago, Robuu said:

Cincinnati's hill situation is fairly unique, because the landslide situation is so bad. Like San Francisco-type development would just be impossible because the soil is so unstable.

 

What makes you think San Francisco's isn't?

[troeros]

Let's not forget Toronto back in the early 70s was similar in size to the 3C's. 

 

Not saying it will happen, but something like the CVG Amazon airhub could be a major catalyst for future growth of online distribution centers and could create a ripple effect in the region with new job opportunities and regional growth. 

 

Again, not saying either of the 3C's will become this mega city like Toronto, but job growth results in population growth which results in new development growth. 

 

The Amazon air hub could be the stone that creates a much larger ripple of new corporations moving down to the cincinnati region to be closer to Amazon air hub and thus result in new jobs and potentially new growth.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by troeros

[DarkandStormy]

56 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

Columbus and Indiana are very similiar in their growth patterns. Both in flat areas with no real boundary for outward growth (mountains or a lake). Both are also state capitols. I've never been to Austin so im unsure what that's like. 

 

I'm not an expert by any means, but having visited Austin twice (decades apart) Columbus and Austin were very similar, but now Austin's growth is just on a much more massive scale - both in quantity and density/height.  Austin definitely isn't as flat, their natural water is more usable (Lake Travis vs. basically a few kayaks on the rivers in Columbus), and their northern suburb (Round Rock vs. Delaware) is closer to the city.  I'm sure there are plenty of other things I'm missing.

[10albersa]

59 minutes ago, troeros said:

The Amazon air hub could be the stone that creates a much larger ripple of new corporations moving down to the cincinnati region to be closer to Amazon air hub and thus result in new jobs and potentially new growth.

 

I'm still wary of this as a large-scale job catalyst (although I had a post last week about how it potentially could lead to rail or better transit).  The jobs the airhub creates will be mainly jobs that will get lost in the automation shuffle, along with those residual businesses that are locating here because of the airhub.  There will be a small number of Amazon managers and the residual companies also will have those managers, but long-term, those warehouse jobs will be gone.

[GCrites]

Don't get excited about Amazon moving in. Instead get excited about all the boring B2B/G companies moving in that treat their people better.

[ck]

The only difference with the jobs is Amazon gets press and others don't.  Sensational stories about workers gets clicked because everyone uses their services.  You'll never hear about a smaller company that likely treats people the same or often worse.

[Robuu]

3 hours ago, Dougal said:

 

What makes you think San Francisco's isn't?

They have some landslide problems, but google "landslide capital of the United States"

[mrnyc]

^ that landslides exist doesn't make it a unique issue though.

 

certainly anything like that immediately brings to mind cinci's twin city .. and sure enough:

 

https://www.wesa.fm/post/pittsburgh-says-its-more-prepared-if-2019-brings-more-landslides

 

also, this brings to mind that cleveland has plenty of issues with the valley slopes and along the waterfront that impede development. so not building along those otherwise very desirable plots due to difficult terrain concerns is a drag too.

Edited May 24, 2019 by mrnyc

[Robuu]

I said "fairly unique", which may not have been the best phrasing, but without finding hard numbers I've found a few references to Cincinnati having a worse landslide problem than anywhere else, so "uniquely bad" may be correct.

 

e.g. this quote from a 2007 Cincinnati Post (RIP) article:

Quote

Hamilton County leads nation in per capita repair costs
Shelly Whitehead, Post staff reporter

U.S. Geological Survey data indicates that more money is spent per capita to repair landslide damage in Hamilton County than any other place in the nation. But most of those slides rarely make headlines.  Instead, Cincinnati geologist Tim Agnello said, the damage often occurs gradually from slower-moving landslides that affect a handful of properties at a time.  For instance, one home’s foundation along an unstable slope may crack this year; the backyard deck may separate from a neighboring home the following year.Often, property owners remain unaware that sliding land is at the root of their problems, so they repair damages as they occur without realizing that their difficulties will only worsen as the land beneath their homes continues to move. But, sometimes damage is both relatively sudden and dramatic. Montague Road (northen Kentucky), for instance, which runs along the northern border of the Views site, was closed for five months eight years ago after a landslide covered the road with dirt and debris and triggered lawsuits between property owners and the city of Park Hills, Ky.  And landslides regularly close sections of Ky. 8 after a sudden movement of the steep slopes along the riverside route washes mud and trees onto the highway.In Mount Adams, a massive system of tunnels, pillars and underground cables stands as testament to just how much damage can occur when the land beneath an unsecured construction-laden slope starts to slide. The $30 million Mount Adams stabilization project was built after construction on Interstate 471 in 1973 sliced into the “toe” of the hill and triggered a landslide that cracked foundations all along Baum Street, ultimately wiping out 16 homes.  Agnello said other less dramatic landslide areas are scattered across Cincinnati (Greater), including along Maryland Avenue in Price Hill where slides forced closure of the road’s upper portion in the mid-1980s.

 

[Brutus_buckeye]

4 hours ago, troeros said:

Let's not forget Toronto back in the early 70s was similar in size to the 3C's. 

 

Not saying it will happen, but something like the CVG Amazon airhub could be a major catalyst for future growth of online distribution centers and could create a ripple effect in the region with new job opportunities and regional growth. 

 

Again, not saying either of the 3C's will become this mega city like Toronto, but job growth results in population growth which results in new development growth. 

 

The Amazon air hub could be the stone that creates a much larger ripple of new corporations moving down to the cincinnati region to be closer to Amazon air hub and thus result in new jobs and potentially new growth.

 

 

Toronto was always a different animal than the 3Cs were. It was always the main financial center of English speaking Canada as well as possessing the right geographic characteristics that no other Canadian cities had. It was primed to be the hub it became today. Montreal was that hub but the whole French language thing and the rift between Quebec and the rest of Canada hurt its growth, I believe.

 

The interesting thing with the fast growth cities or faster growing cities of the last 20 years seems to be that they almost all center around a state capital and large research university combination in the town. Austin, Columbus, Salt Lake, Raleigh/Durham, Nashville, Atlanta all fit this mold. Throw in Indy and Denver who may not have the large research university in the city but have one within an hour drive and they all fit the mold.

Outside of say Charlotte, how many other key cities have that type of growth? Yes, there are Dallas and Houston but Texas is its own unique animal so I discount that.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

23 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Toronto was always a different animal than the 3Cs were. It was always the main financial center of English speaking Canada as well as possessing the right geographic characteristics that no other Canadian cities had. It was primed to be the hub it became today. Montreal was that hub but the whole French language thing and the rift between Quebec and the rest of Canada hurt its growth, I believe.

 

The French language thing was a disaster for Montreal and Quebec.  The English language not only dominates Canada but increasingly the entire world.  People in India and China and the Arab countries are learning English, not French.  

 

Plus, many people in Quebec simply do not know English.  At all.  Maybe they can count to 10 but that's about it.  

 

[Guest jmecklenborg]

3 hours ago, 10albersa said:

 

I'm still wary of this as a large-scale job catalyst (although I had a post last week about how it potentially could lead to rail or better transit).  The jobs the airhub creates will be mainly jobs that will get lost in the automation shuffle, along with those residual businesses that are locating here because of the airhub.  There will be a small number of Amazon managers and the residual companies also will have those managers, but long-term, those warehouse jobs will be gone.

 

Memphis is currently, by far, the #1 cargo airport in the United States.  As we all know, Memphis used to be Tennessee's top city but keeps sinking relative to Nashville and the rest of the United States.  

 

In coming years CVG will likely surpass Memphis in tonnage but not employees because Prime Air will have strict size and weight limits and won't deal at all with hazardous cargo or international orders.  UPS, FedEx, and DHL all deal with oversized shipments, international, hazardous, etc.  Plus there are collect orders and all sorts of complications like that.  

 

Prime Air will be much more automated because packages will be limited in size and weight, there will be no international crap to worry about, no handwritten bills, etc.  That slashes the necessary workforce because it takes a lot of manpower and training to deal with the unusual stuff that the other carriers have to deal with.  

 

 

 

[Ram23]

15 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

The French language thing was a disaster for Montreal and Quebec.  The English language not only dominates Canada but increasingly the entire world.  People in India and China and the Arab countries are learning English, not French.  

 

Plus, many people in Quebec simply do not know English.  At all.  Maybe they can count to 10 but that's about it.   

 

I spent about a month on and off in Montreal once during a project. It's surprising how many people only speak French, and there's a significant percentage that are insulted/annoyed when visitors can't speak it. I could certainly understand if this has somewhat stunted the city's growth. In that regard it's not unlike Cincinnati, wherein the old school lifelong dynasties running the show seem to be perfectly okay with minimal growth so long as it keeps the aura of the place on an even keel.

[GCrites]

^Cincinnati: No Hipsterization Without Authorization

[Guest jmecklenborg]

1 hour ago, Ram23 said:

 

I spent about a month on and off in Montreal once during a project. It's surprising how many people only speak French, and there's a significant percentage that are insulted/annoyed when visitors can't speak it. I could certainly understand if this has somewhat stunted the city's growth. In that regard it's not unlike Cincinnati, wherein the old school lifelong dynasties running the show seem to be perfectly okay with minimal growth so long as it keeps the aura of the place on an even keel.

 

I have only visited Montreal once, in 2002.  A guy came up on the sidewalk and asked me for directions in French.  I don't know why this guy profiled me as someone who not only a) was from there b) spoke French.  We quickly realized we were completely unable to communicate and we walked our separate ways.  

 

Outside of Quebec, French is spoken on various Caribbean islands and several 20~ million population African countries.  So they really (along with Spain) struck out as compared to England when it came to colonizing areas that rose to dominance in the 20th century.  

 

Today, much of London's rise as the center of European commerce, and by many measures the world's most important city, is due to New York (also arguably the world's most important city) doing business in English.  Thanks to India and Australia and Hong Kong, plus many Japanese and Koreans learning English after WWII, China and smaller SE Asian countries have all been forced to learn English.  

 

If Mao had never existed and an open China had risen in the 1950s and 1960s alongside Japan and Korea, English would play a lesser role in the Far East.  

 

Also, English got a foothold in the Arab world when oil was struck and the U.S. helped form ARAMCO.  

 

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by jmecklenborg

[GCrites]

well, you know, a large part of the populated area of Quebec is in... Appalachia

[GCrites]

Here's a place selling "pneus neufs" (new tires) and yes the P is silent. I'm sure one of them will fit the Colorado Z71 4x4 parked out front. Check out the Hocking County-esque scenery. 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7830576,-74.1064645,3a,75y,270h,80.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgzv_4JAmWIUYRTmXCgtKqA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Edited May 25, 2019 by GCrites80s

[jam40jeff]

And the speed limit is 70!

[KJP]

On a Rome-Toronto flight last year, I sat next to a young English-speaking couple who had recently moved from Montreal to Toronto. They moved because they said they were treated as lesser people by the Quebecois because they were not fluent in French. 

 

I have an older (70s) friend who lived in Toronto most of his life. When he was a kid in the 1950s, he said he often heard adult Toronto residents lament the city being smaller than their fellow Great Lakes cities, and that they wished Toronto was more like Chicago, Detroit and Cleveland. A friend of mine was a teenager in the 1960s when his family went to Canada for a vacation. They went through Toronto nonstop in both directions on their way to/from Montreal, then Canada's largest city. On their way back to Cleveland, while traveling through Toronto again, my friend asked his parents why they weren't stopping to see that city. His parents said about Toronto "Oh you don't want to go there..."

 

The 1970 Census would be the last time that the City of Cleveland would be more populous than the primary city of Toronto and Cleveland-Akron would have more population than Toronto-Hamilton. That was in my lifetime (I'm 51), showing how fast the fortunes of a city can change. Toronto rebuilt its city around transit and benefitted from the 1970s exodus of banking institutions and other corporate headquarters from Montreal during the Liberte Quebec turmoil. Cleveland's neglect of transit, building of highways, sprawl, racial tensions, and massive loss of industry in the 1960s-1980s are all well noted.

Edited May 25, 2019 by KJP

[jdm00]

Not sure how this relates to census trends, but I love Montreal. 

 

 

[cincydave8]

7 hours ago, jdm00 said:

Not sure how this relates to census trends, but I love Montreal. 

 

 

Me too. I spent a week there in 2017. Easily one my favorite cities I've ever been too. Most people I interacted with were fine if I just said something like "English Please." I only ran into a few people who struggled with English but everyone else in the city seemed to be bilingual. It may be different in rural Quebec though. 

[jdm00]

I'm right there with you.  Had no issues with the language, and it's a fantastic place.  Easily a top-10 (maybe top-5) city for me.  

[edale]

When I was in Amsterdam a few years back, I stayed in a hostel and met people from all over the world- France, Germany, Australia, Brazil, India...

 

The only person I met who I had trouble communicating with was a dude from Montreal who spoke almost no English at all. How can someone be a resident of a major cosmopolitan city in an English dominant country and not speak even basic English? I have been to Montreal a few times and never had difficult communicating or getting around, so this encounter really surprised me. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by edale

[mu2010]

^Language is a hot-button issue in Quebec. Once I met some English speaking Montrealers who explained it all to me. 

 

https://theculturetrip.com/north-america/canada/quebec/articles/how-quebecs-language-police-are-keeping-french-alive-in-canada/

[cfdwarrior]

https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2018/05/cleveland_is_nations_27th_most.html   I wish I could have experienced the density of Cleveland in the 1940's and 50's...

[E Rocc]

22 hours ago, cfdwarrior said:

https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2018/05/cleveland_is_nations_27th_most.html   I wish I could have experienced the density of Cleveland in the 1940's and 50's...

 

That was something the majority endured because it was necessary at the time (WWII, and the postwar era when the rural migration did not reverse), not because they chose or enjoyed it.

 

As they endured it, they worked to get away from it.

 

City planners and boosters err when they romanticize density.   

[DEPACincy]

6 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

That was something the majority endured because it was necessary at the time (WWII, and the postwar era when the rural migration did not reverse), not because they chose or enjoyed it.

 

As they endured it, they worked to get away from it.

 

City planners and boosters err when they romanticize density.   

 

It's funny how people tried so hard to get away from it and then spend the rest of their lives reminiscing about the "good old days" when neighbors knew each other, everyone sat on their front porches, and you could walk down to the corner store and get a Coke. And then every year for vacation they visit dense cities and resort towns trying to recreate the magic. And then they send their kids to a dense college town and the kid remembers those years in that dense college town as the best years of their lives. And the cycle begins anew. 

[Clefan98]

^ So true

[BigDipper 80]

People get too hung up on the word "density" and immediately assume that people are advocating for Manhattan-style tenements everywhere. It's not hard to be both urban and allow for some of that stereotypical American "breathing room". Just build more Lakewoods and Shaker Heights.

[cfdwarrior]

When I talk about density, I didn't mean NYC type density, but what Cleveland once had.  Yes it is dense in certain areas, but we have definitely lost some very dense areas for various reasons.. (Photos from KJP and Mendo)

[GCrites]

People used to understand the difference naturally, but then Right-Wing think tanks came up with rhetoric that makes some people paranoid when they hear the word density. 

[KJP]

Like density? How about Slavic Village circa 1950?

 

 

[jonoh81]

What I always notice about old city pictures is just how awful the cities look. There are few trees, little to no pedestrian infrastructure, manufacturing pollution... it’s no wonder people wanted to leave.  We don’t build density like we used to, but we also don’t build completely sterile, dirty places with no thought for residents anymore, either.