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Cleveland: Global Center for Health Innovation & Convention Center

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Wouldn't this ruin the chance of Cuyahoga Valley RR having a downtown depot under Tower City? - I thought that was "under the stilts" on the old plan.

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one of many things this would ruin... also ruined are the new convention center and a large swath of land where the old convention center is that pretty much becomes worthless for the next 50 or so years.

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that's the one i was refering to... thanks.  and so it will probably end the way it always does around here... with FCE getting everything they want regardless of what is best for the city.

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I think it's really ridiculous how these big companies (Cleveland Clinic, Forest City, etc) can really get the upper hand just because they're big and Cleveland wants to bow to their every whim to make them happy. I mean, I can understand that to an extent. Cleveland is definitely fortunate to have companies like these. But it can't bow to their every whim. Because at the end of the day, they're all businesses. And businesses work for their own bottom lines.

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I think it's really ridiculous how these big companies (Cleveland Clinic, Forest City, etc) can really get the upper hand just because they're big and Cleveland wants to bow to their every whim to make them happy.

 

Whoa, there, boyo.  :)  Don't lump the Clinic in with the Forest City f*cks.  The Clinic wanted to make traffic circles on Euclid at 105th and 90th (or thereabouts) to make the new entrance a little more peaceful and pedestrian friendy.  The city said "no way, Toby" and the Clinic backed off on that.

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FYI.. the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR would still have a station included in the convention center, if the Tower City site is chosen.


"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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^You cannot trash FC and not aknowledge that the Cleveland Clinic being so large it has a monopoly to charge what it wants for healthcare around here thus making it more expensive to own and operate businesses.  They are all just looking out for themselves which is not to say that is a bad thing.  Back on point, Sam Miller wants to get this project done before he sees the company of to Al Ratner, who is a genius of a man but it seems there are so many factors going so many ways.

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But unless they can get costs down at the existing site, I'm not sure that there is a choice.  :|

 

McCleveland, do you, or does anyone else, know if there have been any actual cost estimates released yet?  I ask because the only articles I can remember reading on the subject of cost overruns were from the PD, and they only alluded to vague problems with the water table and unspecified costs associated with that.  Just wondering if there are more concrete numbers that I somehow missed.

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Here's something I believe our great piece of journalism newspaper forgot to mention since the beginning of this fiasco- have the plans for the mall site EVER changed, and who is developing it?  Forest city's plans have changed many times since the announcement of the convention center, in part (I believe), because they know that they have the inferior site between the two.  But what of the mall site?  Any new updates on that site?

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Cost estimates are supposed to be released before the end of the month (of July!), that is of course until they move the date back again. 

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I think it's really ridiculous how these big companies (Cleveland Clinic, Forest City, etc) can really get the upper hand just because they're big and Cleveland wants to bow to their every whim to make them happy. I mean, I can understand that to an extent. Cleveland is definitely fortunate to have companies like these. But it can't bow to their every whim. Because at the end of the day, they're all businesses. And businesses work for their own bottom lines.

 

Cleveland Clinic?? Where would this city be without the Cleveland Clinic? They have done so much for this city.

 

Forest City is doing what any business would do--they are making an attractive proposal. Maybe it is a proposal that the County can not refuse. It is not as if they are twisting the County's arm. In fact, they are complying with the County's demands. I don't get your logic on this one. Are they secretly adding millions of dollars to the cost of the Mall site?

 

 

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I finally got my comments posted on cleveland.dumb (I LOVE THAT!!), which routinely has not posted comments which are in support of the opposition (i.e. the mall site).  My first attempt at posting a comment yesterday didn't make it to the site.  We'll see if it gets deleted, though.  It wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

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^that has happened before on some non-controversial articles. I really doubt that they are editing it because you support the current location.

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I spoke too soon... it got deleted.  Unbelievable. 

 

Here's part of what I typed this morning,

 

The mall site has better access for trucks, more land for expansion, and more hotel rooms within a close vicinity.  Why this paper keeps pushing the Tower City site is beyond me.  The mall site is statistically superior to Tower City (and don't give me the "Tower City has the Rapid which a conventioner could take from the airport", as the mall site has the Waterfront Line.  If a conventioner takes the train from the airport to Tower City, then jumps on the Waterfront Line, they'll go around the newly built EAST BANK by the time construction of the new convention center is completed.  That will make a great impression on a person from out of town who doesn't get bombarded by negative news about Cleveland like us locals).

 

If, and that's IF, Forest City were to develop the Scranton Peninsula behind Tower City (which they originally proposed, then pulled back when the city was first discussing building a new convention center with then Mayor Jane Campbell), then the Tower City site would be a shoe-in.  However, that is not the case; Forest City will not build on the peninsula, and conventioners will look over a barren patch of land as they look over the river.

 

 

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FBI raided dimora? hahahah GOOD! the fuckin 3 stooges need to all get the hell out. how are these clowns in office in the first place?

 

wonder where tax money REALLY goes to........

 

and a question about the sales tax raise for this medical mart, is that even legal? can they raise the sales tax without a vote?

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200 agents involved raiding 10+ locations. Not just small quid pro quo if it involves this many agents. Who knows what will unravel from this.

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and a question about the sales tax raise for this medical mart, is that even legal? can they raise the sales tax without a vote?

 

You think you live in a pure Democracy where the public should vote on every tax hike? You don't. You live in a representative republic. Remember all that stuff from about 230 years ago, about taxation without representation?

 

We fought and died for a Constitution that allowed us to "hire" by popular vote various elected representatives to make tough governing decisions for us. That include raising revenues to operate government.

 

If you want to debate this, start a new discussion in the Off Topic Thread.


"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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the medical mart / convention center is most assuredly stalled/delayed until further notice.  there will be no progress made on this project until the investigation is complete, which will take years...

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the medical mart / convention center is most assuredly stalled/delayed until further notice.  there will be no progress made on this project until the investigation is complete, which will take years...

 

with hard facts like those, I don't see how I can disagree.

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But on a somewhat more wait-and-see note...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/07/could_the_federal_publiccorrup.html

 

Could the federal public-corruption probe affect the Med Mart project?

Posted by Sarah Hollander

July 29, 2008 12:06PM

 

 

The potential impact of the public-corruption investigation that rocked Cuyahoga County government Monday on ongoing projects, including the county's plans for a new Cleveland convention center and medical mart, remains unclear.

 

Behind-the-scenes planning is ongoing. A Greater Cleveland Partnership site selection committee plans to meet later this afternoon to review the top two sites-the existing Lakeside Avenue address and a riverfront site behind Tower City Center...

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the medical mart / convention center is most assuredly stalled/delayed until further notice.  there will be no progress made on this project until the investigation is complete, which will take years...

 

For what it's worth, PLJ reminded everyone in his news conference this morning that Jimmy has only one vote, so PLJ and Hagan can still conduct all county commissioner business without him with their two votes.

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Cuyahoga County corruption investigation not expected to get in way of medical mart

 

 

Planning for a new Cleveland convention center and medical mart is moving ahead despite the public-corruption investigation targeting some Cuyahoga County officials.

 

"It's business as usual," said Mark Falanga, a senior vice president with Merchandise Mart Properties Inc.

 

Plain Dealer reporter Joe Guillen contributed to this story.

 

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

 

shollander@plaind.com, 216-999-4816

 

More at cleveland.com:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1217406725291130.xml&coll=2

 

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Commissioner Peter Lawson Jones said during a news conference Tuesday that now, more than ever, county decisions related to the project should be made with "absolute openness and transparency." . . . .  A consultant paid by the partnership has finished price estimates for both, not including property acquisition costs, said attorney and committee Chairman Fred Nance.

 

He declined to disclose those estimates.

 

Someone call Commissioner Jones and ask for those estimates!

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Commissioner Peter Lawson Jones said during a news conference Tuesday that now, more than ever, county decisions related to the project should be made with "absolute openness and transparency." . . . .  A consultant paid by the partnership has finished price estimates for both, not including property acquisition costs, said attorney and committee Chairman Fred Nance.

 

He declined to disclose those estimates.

 

Someone call Commissioner Jones and ask for those estimates!

 

Call Fred.

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I would be really surprised if this affected the medical mart in any serious way. There's already been way too much money, time and effort invested by both sides to allow a seemingly unrelated scandal to ruin this project.

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Could it just be as simple as the purchase price for the property acquisition is still being negotiated, so it is not being included?

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Tower City site is much cheaper BUT still way over budget. http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_article.aspx?storyid=94213&catid=45

something doesn't smell right!

 

Cheaper today and when the site doesn't function properly or it's outdated, we'll be in the same boat. 

 

So instead of doing it right and putting it in a location that makes sense, we spend money to avoid the problem instead of fixing the problem NOW and for the FUTURE.

 

Throwing money after a bad idea is ridiculous.  this particular issues isn't not just about the $$$ and cents, but what makes SENSE.  Cleveland's future as a location that can support larger tourism, meeting, special events and conventions is at stake.

 

I bet if this get built behind tower city, we won't see any new hotels, restaurants or ancillary businesses, marketing or promotion of the city/region.

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This makes me throw up in my mouth a little... and I hate to say i told you so... but a few of my own quotes from this thread:

 

"it's going to end up down town at the higbee building. there's too many political forces at work." 1/07/08

 

"If this convention center doesn't end up behind Tower City I will buy everyone on this forum a beer.  Not saying that is necessarily what I would do.  But I will bet almost anything that, that's where it's going.  Too many political forces at work on that one. " 03/13/08

 

"I'm telling you... you can argue all the points you want... but this thing is going to be built behind tower city.  I have met and heard things from too many prominent officials (past and current administration) over the last 3-4 years... They will put on a nice dog and pony show about site selection... and then they will announce that it is being built behind tower city. " 03/13/08

 

"But I've stated many times before... I'm pretty sure this decision is well already made.  Get ready for the TC site, and let's at least hope that the attached convention center can help recreate Tower City as a legitimate shopping destination, and that they can come up with a good plan on how not to have the existing site be a wasteland. " 03/17/08

 

"You are all very right... and it's still going to go behind tower city. " 03/18/08

 

"I'd love... LOVE... to see the existing site as the convention center, with the actual Mart in the Higbees Building. It forces the interaction we all crave.  It could do so many great things for downtown.  But if you open your ears at all, you hear the same things... and it's that this thing is going to end up behind tower city. " 03/19/08

 

I could go on... and on... and on... everything about the current site is so right. And everything about the TC site is so wrong... and it was ALWAYS going to be built on the TC site.

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I bet if this get built behind tower city, we won't see any new hotels, restaurants or ancillary businesses, marketing or promotion of the city/region.

 

What makes you think that.  Everything that's been presented refutes your pressumption.  All the planning has been there would be a new hotel at the site and, perhaps, that the Renaissance would finally be expanded over that empty hole at corner of Superior and Prospect.  Clearly Tower City would get a shot in the arm -- oops, sorry, the Ratners are hated; that's no option.

 

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^^No marketing of the city or region because it's behind tower city?  To borrow one of your too often used lines MTS, where is your data or evidence to back this statement up or is it just a knee-jerk reaction?  To assume that there would be more marketing of the region if the current site was used makes no sense.  To be clear, I far prefer the current c.c. site, but find it hard to believe that $460 million would be spent on a project that wouldn't get marketed. 

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