Cleveland: Global Center for Health Innovation & Convention Center

[3 Dog Pat]

from the PD

 

Site for convention center may be picked in a month

Wednesday, December 08, 2004

Tom Breckenridge

Plain Dealer Reporter

The group charged with planning a downtown convention center wants to choose a site by early January and have major recommendations on financing, size and layout to the community by April 30. The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Convention Facilities Authority will decide between two sites -- renovating the current, city-owned convention center on Lakeside Avenue or building anew behind Tower City, on land owned by Forest City Enterprises.

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

 

[mrnyc]

congrats to mayor jane for this one. i guess there is tremendous pressure from the business community for a new convention center and she is doing the right thing by favoring renovating the old one. the current conven cen is actually sweet in concept being partly underground under mall c. it just (badly) needs renovated, modernized and expanded. architects would have a field day with that project as its beyond cool potentially.

 

so "ef" the ratners, they are just going to blow town for nyc as soon as old man miller dies anyway. the last thing they need is "rewarded" for sitting on all that prime downtown land and letting it sit vacant all these years. they've been holding the city hostage with that land for how long now?

 

the previous ratner "deal" of adding some housing on the flats scranton peninsula, which would happen naturally anyway if they'd let it, is not enough to sweeten the pot in their favor in my mind.  i just hope the other politicians have the stones to stand up to them too. looks like we'll see soon!

 

[FerrariEnzo]

The one redeeming quality with Ratner is the residential development of Scranton Peninsula... 

[3 Dog Pat]

I remember the Forest City folks saying the river wall would have to be reconstructed as a first step to develop Scranton Peninsula.  And it would cost some ridiculous amount of money, like $500 million.

 

Does anyone know if this is just an excuse, or is there something to it?

[zaceman]

actually i remember there being a private developer wanting to buy the islands off of Forest City.  "Scaravelli Islands" he wanted to create out of it.  But he only was offering $50 million for it

[Frank V]

The Tower City site & accompanying Scranton Peninsula development seems like the better of the 2 choices, even if it means dealing with FCE.  It's also closer to the Warehouse District and Gateway District.

 

Seems that the current site could be used for other things.

[3 Dog Pat]

Forest City's updated plan...towpath yes, housing on scranton, no. 

 

Forest City pushes its river site

Convention center panel hears case for linking to Tower City

Tom Breckenridge, Plain Dealer, January 12, 2005

 

Forest City Enterprises Inc. pressed convention-center planners Tuesday to pick its site near Tower City, extolling the riverfront venue as an unsurpassed hub of transportation, retail and entertainment.

Forest City's William Voegele acknowledged the big-ticket convention center would likely boost the sagging fortunes of Tower City's retail strip, called The Avenue, and other assets of the prominent real estate company.

[3 Dog Pat]

Here is a rendering, I guess Huron Rd. becomes a tunnel, and the Hard Rock guitar becomes a memory? :wave:

 

While I am really upset at FCE  :evil: for keeping Scranton Rd. a wasted opportunity, and for all of the other crap they pull, I think now I am leaning toward it as the best place, just because it connects so many dots.  Euclid Ave, Gateway, Warehouse Dist, even the south end of the flats.  And if they ever get scranton rd developed :whip: it will connect downtown to tremont.

 

(lots of smileys)

[nsc]

Where would the large hotel be located

 

[3 Dog Pat]

Tower city's property along the river is expansive, so probably next to the convention center.  Maybe in that gaping hole along Ontario between Prospect and Huron, next to the landmark office tower

[KJP]

Below is what was proposed in 1990 to fill that hole along Ontario at Huron. And, the picture below that is self-explanatory (also from 1990).

 

KJP

 

 

[the pope]

^wow

 

 

looks like i'm reading the unbuilt detroit article..........if anyone really cares to see it i have it........

[X]

Wow indeed!

 

The old master plans from the eighties and early nineties made downtown Cleveland look like downtown Atlanta with numerous superscrapers placed all over downtown.

[3 Dog Pat]

it kinda makes you wish they put the rock hall at tower city

 

[MayDay]

Unfortunately, the previous renderings for the Tower City site showed the hotel situated just south of MK Ferguson Plaza/east of the Federal Courthouse tower. It looked to be more of a midrise (i.e. below 400 feet) than anything else.

 

This link shows the initial rendering

http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_fullstory.asp?id=6410

[MayDay]

See the red circle? That's the hotel component of the original Forest City proposal:

 

[nsc]

A sign still stands for a project called "Ontario Point" at the intersection of Ontario and Huron.  Does anyone know anything about this.

[FerrariEnzo]

The Ratner proposal needs a Starcitecht, and the "circled" hotel portion, isnt that just an add on onto the post office down there?

[the pope]

^post office?

[zaceman]

wow i really dont like seeing these renderings.  the one looks like a different city altogether with TT plopped in the middle. 

[KJP]

Pope, I think he's referring to the MK Fergurson Plaza, which used to the be the main post office until 1982. I still have a hard time thinking of it as anything other than "the old post office."

 

KJP

[Frank V]

A sign still stands for a project called "Ontario Point" at the intersection of Ontario and Huron. Does anyone know anything about this.

 

This was supposed to be built on that little sliver of land in the middle of Ontario, just before Carnegie, immediately west of Jacobs Field.  There used to be a Shell gas station there until the mid '90's.  Now it's just a grassy lot.  Ontario Point I think was/is supposed to be a little visitors center.

[MayDay]

"and the "circled" hotel portion, isnt that just an add on onto the post office down there?"

 

No, although I can see why you might think so. This would be across Huron Road from MK Ferguson/Old Post Office. It looks as though they'd build over or around the enclosed walkway to the Federal Courthouse tower.

[3 Dog Pat]

Here is what Litt thinks...

URBAN PLANNING

 

Convention center plans have pros, cons

Sunday, January 16, 2005

After a 17-month timeout for a civic agenda dominated by other is sues, Cleveland has resumed its agonizing debate over where to build the city's next convention center.

 

Should the Convention and Fa cilities Authority, or CFA, jointly created by the city and Cuyahoga County, rebuild the aging, outmoded exhibit hall underneath the downtown Mall, following a proposal favored by Mayor Jane Campbell?

 

Or should it build a new convention center behind Tower City Center on a site overlooking the Cuyahoga River, as desired by Forest City Enterprises, the giant real estate company with headquarters at Tower City?

 

......

 

Voegele pointed out last week that scouring out the existing convention center under the Mall and building a new foundation poses a risk of construction cost overruns from unforeseen soil conditions and underground streams. Those factors certainly must be weighed, along with many others.

 

But for now, it's clear that Forest City's proposal, while possibly workable, would inject an architectural gigantism along the riverfront that would be hard to camouflage and likely would end up looking very, very strange.

 

Litt is architecture critic of The Plain Dealer.

 

more at Cleveland.com

 

[X]

If we were to use the riverfront site, what would become of the old convention center?  What would become of the County administration building when the County moves?  That's an awful lot to abandon like that.  The Mall site just dovetails too nicely with the County's plans for a new headquarters.

[KJP]

Put the county offices in the old convention center! LOL

 

Actually, I'm part serious. It would be an interesting way to start an underground city like what's in Toronto or Atlanta.

 

KJP

[X]

Hmmm.....Earthscrapers?  New Tallest Earthscraper for Cleveland! -950 ft!

[the pope]

isn't montreals underground pretty significant too? i think i remember it cutting underground a lot of the old part of the city leaving the history in tact (i could be wrong)

[KJP]

What if...the old convention center was sold/leased to the county for its offices? Or, better yet, sold to the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority for it to lease to the county as an anchor tenant. The rest of the old convention center would feature shops lining its corridors with future extensions south to the Old Arcade and Tower City (some of these old tunnels still exist) and north over the tracks and Shoreway to North Coast Harbor (could use federal Congestion Mitigation/Air Quality funds for walkways like these, just as Cleveland Clinic and RTA has done, with a new Amtrak station/North Coast Transportation Center).

 

The port authority could then use the revenues from the old convention center to fund a bond issue for the public-sector portion of building the convention center at Tower City. The end result would be an underground city linking Gund Arena, the Old Arcade, Tower City, a new convention center, BP Building, Key Tower/Marriott Hotel, Cuyahoga County offices/underground city, North Coast Transportation Center, Science Center and Rock Hall. Additional underground extensions could reach the Sheraton Hotel, The Galleria/Erieview, or in the opposite direction to the Colonial Arcade.

 

I'm done dreaming now.

 

KJP

[X]

I'd be worried that with such a soft market for retail space downtown that all our remaining shops would just move down to this underground city and that what little pedestrian traffic we have would follow.

[KJP]

Or, it could encourage more pedestrian traffic by sparing them from the elements, with new downtown housing, a new convention center, etc. They'd have to advertise it...

 

"Take your vacation in Cleveland in January, where the temperature is always a comfortable 70 degrees. Fly into Cleveland, take the train downtown, and enjoy all that Downtown Cleveland has to offer -- at room temperature.... The Cleveland Cavaliers at Gund Arena, shopping at Tower City Center, the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame and Museum, the Great Lakes Science Center and a half-dozen hotels are all linked to the new Underground City with its own shopping, cafes and splashy fountains. You'll have a new appreciation of the city's great indoors. Just remember, when you depart Cleveland for home, put your coat back on."

 

How's that?

 

KJP

[3 Dog Pat]

I heard this guy is not the most financially secure.  Maybe I am just hearing FC propoganda, but I think he is personally bankrupt.

[KJP]

Regardless of what the story is, FC is starting to look like a slumlord in their own hometown while they build megaprojects in other cities. If they can't figure out what to do with Tower City and the Scranton Peninsula, then perhaps they're not as smart as everybody thinks.

 

KJP

[conovercourt]

So what happened to Niemann-Marcus?

[FerrariEnzo]

Where the hell did this Venice of the Cuyahoga come from?  Its awesome but never heard of it.

[CtownD]

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Neiman-Marcus pulled out after they moved the Rock Hall (was proposed for behind Tower City) to the Lakefront.  Would have been interesting to see if having Neiman-Marcus at TC would have helped to retain Fendi, Gucci, Barney's and some of the other high-end stores.  I guess it's looking back at what was there (at TC) that makes it so painful to look at what it's turning into.

   

[mrnyc]

just renovate the old one  -----  this choice is the clear winner! :clap:

 

[X]

I'd prefer that they do it on the current site as well.  I don't know how I feel about this exact plan, however.  I'd like to see more done with the Mall.  And I don't think we should trust "wait till they come up with a final rendering".  I think that we need to say that as up front as possible.  The Mall is a treasure.  Very few cities have a greenspace this large downtown.  I would hope that we can find a way to use this asset to its fullest.  I'd also want to know how the offices/meeting spaces/hotel above ground would interact with the streets around it.

[nsc]

I think, the only way we would see a new center is if they pass casino gaming.  Everyone knows that the business is down everywhere.  I know Cincy's is down 47 percent, St Louis is down along with New Orleanes, Indy, Chicago and LA.  In DC, residents are paying 60 mill a year in lost convention business after investing $867 mill in a new center.  What makes Cleveland any different. 

[the pope]

on the casinos note, detroit may have found its santa claus as the sands casino wants to build a casino/convention/hotel. There are a few hurdles in the way, but the fact that it could be done with nearly no public financing would be phenomenal.

[3 Dog Pat]

Hey Y'all

 

    Still down here in Mississippi (but I do have an interview in Chicago on Friday) and recently Jackson MS, passed a tax to build a new convention center.

    It is hard for me to describe Jackson.  It is about the size of Ft. Wayne, but has absolutely no downtown.  No restuarants, no bars, no museums.  Well, maybe they have a few places, but I would say less than 10 places are open within a mile of the capitol building on any evening.

    But if you listen to the Jackson supporters, they talk about what great things the convention center will bring.  New bars, restuarants.  Hotels, maybe even pro sports.  The city will grow and people will move downtown.

    So that made me think of our own discussion in Cleveland.  I know people site studies saying that convention centers are a huge waste of money. 

    Well, in Jackson I agree, but by studying Jackson I think that maybe Cleveland's may not be all that bad.  We already have downtown restuarants, pro sports teams, museums.  Basically we already have everything that Jackson hopes a new convention center will spawn.

    We actually have a worldwide tourist atraction in the Rock Hall, Gateway buzzes nearly year round, university circle is stronger than ever  and there are more places to get drunk in Cleveland than in most cities in the country.

  In fact, my thought is that we actually need the convention center to keep these cultual assets flush with money from people from outside the region.  The convention center itself may never be a cash cow, but it would be a worthwile investment into the city.

 

Alright.....now attack!  :evil:

[MayDay]

I'm of the school of thought that Cleveland needs to do *something* about the current facilities. The current convention center is pitifully obsolete - I go back to the fact that our current convention center has TWO loading docks versus the industry standard of anywhere from 20 to 30. Obviously something needs to be done - but is building new the right way to go? I'm not convinced. Improving what's there to be modestly competitive is one thing, plunking down even more millions in taxpayer money in a project that's guaranteed to not show profit indefinitely is another.

 

The problem is that in mid-market convention cities (i.e. Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Columbus, etc.), the convention industry is having such a tough time that blocks of hotel rooms, hundreds of comped meals, comped admissions to attractions, etc.,  are being given as incentives to lure shows (more like slashing their own throats). Revenue from hotel stays? Nope. Revenue from people dining out? Not when they get free meals from the hotel. Revenue from admissions fees? Not after the slashed discounted rates for groups of conventioneers. Revenue from souvenirs and ancillary spending? If you're lucky. That's what "flush with money from people outside the region" translates to.

 

I support re-configuring the current center in a way that keeps costs down but enhances the facility. That way, the center can be used as an asset in promoting the city instead of a reason for conventions to choose other cities. But it would also prevent the public from being fleeced - yet again (Gateway, Browns Stadium). If the market warrants, I'd encourage expansion over the Shoreway a la Kansas City and Bartle Hall.

 

I absolutely do not support the Forest City proposal. They have shown that they can't maintain what they have (Tower Sh!tty), they  and in their new proposal, they make NO mention at ALL about developing the Scranton Road peninsula. They have benefitted far too much for far too long at taxpayers expense and it's time their gravy train was cut off. It's absurd that they would expand Tower City to accomodate their leviathan of a proposal. They can't keep quality tenants in a landmark facility of over 100 stores that's at the center of a region of 3 million people - how would they treat a convention center? For god's sake, they've kept safety nets on their landmark HQ for months and I don't see any sign of them coming down. It's called "taking care of what you have", and lord knows they can't seem to do that!

[MyTwoSense]

I think reconstructing our downtown conventioner center will help with the followingI do not think a convention center is a “fix all”.  Cleveland is a large city with a antiquated downtown facility that is functional (with all the necessary infrastructure:  transit, civic center, restaurants, lodging, corporate services, etc.) as well as a MEGA center near our airport (with no infrastructure) I think reconstructing our current downtown convention center will help with the following:

 

–Give a clear sign to convention planners that the city has consolidated all services to one state of the art center that is the SAME EXACT SIZE as the current IX center.

 

– Lodging company’s will no longer be in a “holding pattern” at to the state Cleveland’s lodging.  The City can solicit company’s to improve current properties and we can help introduce new properties to our market.  This will help current business and attractions that are not necessarily “tourist” related.  Cleveland is the perfect market for mixed-use “condo/hotel” (W Hotels, Conrad hotels) towers.  This opens the doors for more Tier 1 properties (St. Regis, Fairmont, Peninsula, Four Seasons {each which have expressed interest in entering the Cleveland market), conventional size chains (Westin, Hilton, JW Marriott, Crown Plaza, Doubletree, Courtyard) providing convention planners/marketer more options to work deals with loyalty programs.

 

– Improve the rating of the city from a stagnant Tier 2 tourist and convention city.  Cleveland is already a top 10 domestic tourist destination (with virtually none of the following:  Regional marketing; collaboration with businesses advertisers/marketers; regional corporate collaboration; ethnic enticements/marketing WORD OF MOUTH)  if the afore mention entities worked as a group with the appropriate marketing on an international level we could actually compete with our coastal brethren.

 

– Work with airline partners to improve infrastructure at the airport & AMTRAK (even with budget cuts) to provide better direct access to the city.

 

These improvements let people know the city is progressive in its thinking/planning (from a public & corporate point of view), financially improving, and open for business.

 

We already have the world class attractions (RNRHOF, Zoo, UC, Playhouse Sq., restaurantants, etc.), hotels (Ritz) and great dining options, a HUB airport......we just need a world class attitude and image makeover! :wink:

 

PS - Don't give Forest City anything, they've already gotten to much and haven't reinvested in it properly.

[mrnyc]

i totally agree renovating and expanding the old site is the best idea. however, it will never be as big as the i-x. unless they link it to cbs stadium and throw a roof over that thing!

 

here's a quote from lmn partner christopher eseman on that,"Can it be done with the same low impact as the Mall site? Probably not," he said. "With my urbanistic hat on, it's hard to beat the Mall site."

 

fwiw, here's a link to a 2003 wcpn survey about it, looks like rather mixed opinions:

 

http://www.wcpn.org/mc/poll/questionnaire.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MyTwoSense]

I should have stated I think it should go over the current rail lines and connect to NCH and Direct rail access/connections.  Virtually opening up the mall to the lake.

[buildingcincinnati]

From the 2/21/05 Plain Dealer:

 

 

 

Convention Center agency wants city to hand over keys

Tom Breckenridge and Joan Mazzolini

Plain Dealer Reporters

 

The convention center authority wants the city to cede control of the Cleveland Convention Center and the county to donate prime land nearby if it's decided that the city-owned center should undergo a massive makeover.

 

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Convention Facilities Authority will recommend soon whether to renovate the antiquated center on Lakeside Avenue or to build a new center on riverfront land near Tower City owned by Forest City Enterprises Inc.

 

To reach these Plain Dealer reporters:

[email protected], 216-999-4695

[email protected], 216-999-4563

 

© 2005 The Plain Dealer. Used with permission.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/convention/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1108982137120081.xml

 

[Map Boy]

OK, as I'm new to this and I have a lot to vent, this has the potential to go long, so bear with me...

 

First, I don't want to see Cleveland drastically expand its convention center.  Though massive public investments can drive piggy-backing private investment, I feel that they should be based in sound economic projects...a gigantic new convention center is not one of them.  It will not make Cleveland unique and it will remain underused...just like the others that people keep referring to.  Concentrate on better projects, like the inner-belt reconstruction and lakefront projects.

 

Second, if the powers that be deem that a new convention center does need to be built, let's not start from scratch!  We have a fantastic, historical  base on the Mall that remains one of the most realized massive urban planning models in the country.  Extend this under Mall B and reconstruct the County office site.  We MUST include an extension of the Mall over the rail tracks down to the Lake in this project.  And sprucing up our horribly inadequte regional rail station in the process couldn't hurt!

 

Thinking outside the box...if the convention center is abandoned and the county offices are moved as well, we will be forced to re-envision this section of Downtown.  Can you imagine this proposition???  Take several of the LARGEST blocks in Downtown Cleveland, all close to the Lake and sandwiched between all of the center city's amenities, and publicly owned...can you think of any fun ideas?  For example, luring residents to downtown...how about adaptively re-using the Convention Center as a "Chelsea Piers" style activities center.  Fill this with every possible amenity that no one can picture in Downtown Cleveland...a gigantic fitness center...a marketplace...a movie theater...a driving range(!) and voila!  Residents will flock!

 

The one downside to this sort of idea is that we have The Avenue at Tower City and The Galleria already floundering.  The majority of our downtown retail is indoors in these malls and the arcades (which I adore), so I feel that building an underground city (as was mentioned earlier) or internalizing too much more retail could just harm us even more.  We need to think original...unique...reuse the Galleria in this "Chelsea Piers" way if the Convention Center remains on its current site!  And think of all the underutilized land to the east of Erieview along the Bluffs!

 

Keep the dream alive folks...

 

and one more thing...in regards to this Scaravelli character being bankrupt...wasn't Donald Trump on his way out a decade or two ago?  The man just keeps building!  And now he's the most unlikely TV star we've seen since Pee Wee Herman!

[Map Boy]

Oh, one more thing...while working at City Hall six years ago, I was inspired by the lack of lunch options around this "Civic Center" portion of downtown and by the glaring emptiness of the Malls. 

 

I ran this idea past a city planner:  why not facilitate a farmers market on Mall B???  Or Mall C (which at the time was a parking lot)???  Bring them in like at the East and West Side Markets.  Think of the Shaker Square farmers market.  We have enough farmers, right?  This could be a once-a-week thing or a three-times-a-week thing or whatever, but use the space!  Create unique commerce!  If I had to go to the Galleria food court one more time, I might have just lost my head!

 

Just an idea...

 

[X]

Mister, fantastic post!  Welcome to the forum.

 

I think I agree with pretty much everything you said there.  And especially that we have to find ways to use the Malls more (and the convention center, if it moves).  How many downtowns have a green space like this in their middle?  Its very unique and so underutilized.  They are doing somewhat better though, having the occasional gathering or concert there.  And I'll give them credit, its a large and tough space to program.  But that could be changed through redesign if they redo the convention center on site.

 

One thing you mentioned is a movie theater, which I'd love to see another of downtown.  But I would want it at street level, as they are wonderful pedestrian generators if surrounded with some supporting land use (bookstores/arcades seem to work like magic).  That is the problem with Tower City Cinema, IMO.  Its just drive in/drive out.  That and its dirty as ^&*($.

[Guest presOhio]

Hey, I could really use your help, all you Clevelanders.

 

Its a long story, but let's just say that yours truly is currently involved in important discussions surrounding the Scranton Peninsula -- and the name of Mr. Scaravelli has come up recently.  In particular, we are looking at the value of that property, and as a result, any rumblings in the media, or otherwise, might be important to know.

 

Can anyone give me a 25 cent description of what is at play here?  My current understanding is the Forrest City owns a number of acres, has a partnership agreement with Scranton-Averell on another sizeable amount, and then Scaravelli owns land along the river itself.

 

I would appreciate greatly any info you could share -- either on this forum, or feel free to E-mail me directly.