Cleveland: Global Center for Health Innovation & Convention Center

[tedolph]

I am going to have to ask a stupid question.  The county already owns an asbestos free 30 story office building gutted to the core.  Would it really be that expensive to put up some temporary walls, RF computer networks, etc. and turn on the HVAC for a few years? I really don't believe the B.S. about floor plate size, ceiling heights, etc. being problems.  King County (seat of city of Seattle)  bought a recently built 50 story office building in downtown Seattle out of forclosure about  10 years ago and filled it with government offices (City light, Water Dept, Finance, etc.).  The floor plates look the same to me.  Ceilings don't look so high, etc.  It has worked fine for 10 years.  Why not in Cleveland?

[MyTwoSense]

I am going to have to ask a stupid question.  The county already owns an asbestos free 30 story office building gutted to the core.  Would it really be that expensive to put up some temporary walls, RF computer networks, etc. and turn on the HVAC for a few years? I really don't believe the B.S. about floor plate size, ceiling heights, etc. being problems.  King County (seat of city of Seattle)  bought a recently built 50 story office building in downtown Seattle out of forclosure about  10 years ago and filled it with government offices (City light, Water Dept, Finance, etc.).  The floor plates look the same to me.  Ceilings don't look so high, etc.  It has worked fine for 10 years.  Why not in Cleveland?

 

Comparing apples to oranges.  We dont know the needs of Kings County compared to the needs of Cuyahoga county.

[8ShadesofGray]

Nonetheless, it's a valid point. If the Commissioners are going to talk about relocating and centralizing operations, it seems reasonable to at least consider this as an option, particularly if it keeps the Merchandise Mart build-out (relatively) on schedule. Of course, 2 out of 3 Commissioners HATE this building :)

 

At the very least, they could at least be using this as a negotiation technique ... Hey, if you don't want to sell, fine ... we're happy to move to an office tower a couple blocks over, we can start this thing tomorrow on our land, and you won't get a dime.

 

The problem, of course, is that there's not much of a reward for selling the property to the county now. Even if the Commissioners are not bluffing, and they are prepared to move county operations, and they have the financial resources to do so, this property owner could easily sell the property to someone once the Med Mart is up and running, sell it to any number of firms that might capitalize on proximity to either the convention center or the Mart ... or maybe Forest City could start an alterna-Mart and they could operate the parking. Wouldn't that be rich? :)

[MyTwoSense]

Nonetheless, it's a valid point. If the Commissioners are going to talk about relocating and centralizing operations, it seems reasonable to at least consider this as an option, particularly if it keeps the Merchandise Mart build-out (relatively) on schedule. Of course, 2 out of 3 Commissioners HATE this building :)

 

At the very least, they could at least be using this as a negotiation technique ... Hey, if you don't want to sell, fine ... we're happy to move to an office tower a couple blocks over, we can start this thing tomorrow on our land, and you won't get a dime.

 

The problem, of course, is that there's not much of a reward for selling the property to the county now. Even if the Commissioners are not bluffing, and they are prepared to move county operations, and they have the financial resources to do so, this property owner could easily sell the property to someone once the Med Mart is up and running, sell it to any number of firms that might capitalize on proximity to either the convention center or the Mart ... or maybe Forest City could start an alterna-Mart and they could operate the parking. Wouldn't that be rich? :)

 

Child, do not give FC any ideas!

[jborger]

Now if you could just picture the North Coast Transportation Center being added on to that, starting from where the long bank of windows are and extending northward toward North Coast Harbor.......

 

Perhaps the North Coast Transportation Center could replace Public Square as a "hub" for RTA.  That would clean up Public Square and reduce bus traffic so the square could finally be united from four squares into just one.

 

Eh, maybe for another thread...  :)

[MyTwoSense]

Now if you could just picture the North Coast Transportation Center being added on to that, starting from where the long bank of windows are and extending northward toward North Coast Harbor.......

 

Perhaps the North Coast Transportation Center could replace Public Square as a "hub" for RTA.  That would clean up Public Square and reduce bus traffic so the square could finally be united from four squares into just one.

 

Eh, maybe definitely for another thread...  :)

[Cleburger]

Now if you could just picture the North Coast Transportation Center being added on to that, starting from where the long bank of windows are and extending northward toward North Coast Harbor.......

 

Perhaps the North Coast Transportation Center could replace Public Square as a "hub" for RTA.  That would clean up Public Square and reduce bus traffic so the square could finally be united from four squares into just one.

 

Eh, maybe definitely for another thread...  :)

 

Two things: 

1.  Transportation Centers do not do anything for the convention business except get the employees to and from work, along with the occasional adventurous attendee.

2.  Don't take this the wrong way because I'm just telling it like it is,  but part of Tower's City's failure is the "bus riding crowd" chases away the white suburbanites.  For this same reason I'm sure the Med Mart people wouldn't want a Transpo Center attached to their facility.

 

 

[Cleburger]

Agreed MTS.

 

My point way back when was I don't believe there needs to be a transport center tied to the Med Mart.  Conventioneers generally take taxi's and pre-arranged shuttles, not public transport, to their convention activities and hotels.

[3 Dog Pat]

Lets bring this back to the topic of the CC/MM

[GreenerPastures]

Cleveland medical mart project proceeds quietly

 

Posted by Laura Johnston and Jim Nichols/Plain Dealer Reporters August 07, 2009 22:18PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- For months, it was Big News, the heftiest development project Cuyahoga County had seen this century, the great hope for Cleveland's economy -- the medical mart.

 

Commissioners ended months of secret negotiations by signing a complicated contract with Chicago-based MMPI in April to build a mart and downtown convention center. Two weeks later, the county struck a deal to buy the existing convention center from the city, ending the daily back-and-forth over where to place the complex.

 

More at http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/06/cleveland_medical_mart_will_li.html

 

 

[Pugu]

The medical mart, though, is more complicated. MMPI wants to buy land on the northeast corner of St. Clair Avenue and Ontario Street, which includes the decades-old Sportsman restaurant. It's also negotiating to buy an eight-story office building and garage owned by California-based L&R Investment Co., valued at a little more than $10 million, according to the county auditor's Web site.

 

Couldn't eminent domain be used here?

[3 Dog Pat]

I think ED would delay the project, and with the economy depressed, it is a good time to start construction to keep costs down.

 

(just speculation on my part)

[GreenerPastures]

No. At one point a few years ago it could have been possible had the County acquired the 113 and parking lot at Sheriff sale and declared everything blighted... but it is rather complicated to fully explain and that bird has flown. Now a attempt to use it and turn private property over to what would essentially another private entity would surely involve  a hell of a battle in Court which would cause a extreme delay.  The US Supreme Court( Kelo vs City of New London) made ruling on the use of EM but allowed individual States to enact their own criteria. The State of Ohio greatly strengthened the individual private property owner rights of her citizens in such circumstances..

 

That is a brief explanation and I'm no lawyer but you can believe these folks have good ones. Nightmare. A little birdie told me so.

[GreenerPastures]

I might add that the County Auditors figures are for tax purposes only and in no way reflect the actual value of the property.

[ExSpectator36]

This could probably be posted in a couple different places:

 

 

Developer Jeff Jacobs proposes own plan for 1,000-room hotel-casino downtown

 

COLUMBUS — Cleveland developer Jeff Jacobs wants a 1,000-room hotel with a full-service casino built alongside the city's planned convention center and medical mart.

 

And to do it, the investment mogul and chairman of a gambling company with major interests in neighboring states said he will offer his name and tons of cash to help defeat a competing four-casino project backed by Cleveland Cavaliers majority owner Dan Gilbert that will be on the Nov. 3 ballot.

 

More at

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/08/developer_jeff_jacobs_opposes.html

[Hts121]

Couldn't Jacobs have waited until the negotiations with the private property owners were done to make such an announcement, especially if it (as Gilbert claims) is illusory?

 

This will only embolden the property owners to keep the price tag up and, in a way, justify them in taking such a stance.

[Oldmanladyluck]

^The county won't let this project be held up by property owners who do not want to sell.  The current county administration building would come down for the Medical Mart, and the County would find space elsewhere downtown.

[willyboy]

What is the site that Jacobs is talking about.  The county site?

[Hts121]

^The county won't let this project be held up by property owners who do not want to sell. The current county administration building would come down for the Medical Mart, and the County would find space elsewhere downtown.

 

I understand that, but the County is still in the negotiation stage with those property owners.  Jacobs might just have created and/or solidified an impasse.

[Oldmanladyluck]

^Point taken.  We'll have to wait and see regarding any further hold outs.

[Etheostoma Caeruleum]

This is turning into a soap opera.

[willyboy]

This is turning into a soap opera.

 

Well, good to know its no longer a comedy.

[MyTwoSense]

This is turning into a soap opera.

 

Well, good to know its no longer a tragic comedy.

 

hint...hint

[doctabroccoli]

This is turning into a soap opera.

 

Well, good to know its no longer a tragic comedy.

 

hint...hint

 

Well maybe it'll end soon, like Guiding Light.

[MayDay]

I think it's back to tragic... they've obviously not spending their budget on the design of the hotel - from newsnet5.com:

 

It's like a really craptacular version of the Scripps Center in Cincinnati.

[hubz1124]

I posed this article in the General Cleveland News/Events sections, but if it works here, fine by me.

 

BTW,

 

"I think it is important to know that what we're talking about is a plan that could be up and running in four months," Tenenbaum continued. "What he is talking about is an idea."

...How the hell might this be achieved?

[cardsnxtyr]

What corner would that hotel be on?

[MayDay]

^^hubz, It's one of those things where it could be posted in a lot of different places and still be appropriate but it looks like this thread is getting the bulk of the replies. It's all good. I think that Tenenbaum's quote means that they would use existing facilities to set up casinos, rather than build a megaproject like Jacobs is suggesting.

 

The hotel looks like it would be located at the corner of Ontario and Lakeside; I'd say this is the view from the south side of St. Clair on Mall A (by the mid-block crosswalk), looking northwest.

[Etheostoma Caeruleum]

Wouldn't it be nice if at least one structure downtown boasted an outdoor elevator? Although I don't fancy this image... It does look like it could accommodate one of those.

[MyTwoSense]

Can we not get hung up on a rendering?  PLEASE?!

[MayDay]

Considering they're trying to sway public sentiment, I think it's important to take the rendering into consideration. If they're trying to "wow" people with that rendering, they're not off to a good start. The developer was quoted as "this is steak compared to hamburger" - if *that's* what they consider steak...? :roll:

[MyTwoSense]

Considering they're trying to sway public sentiment, I think it's important to take the rendering into consideration. If they're trying to "wow" people with that rendering, they're not off to a good start. The developer was quoted as "this is steak compared to hamburger" - if *that's* what they consider steak...? ::)

 

Thats why I don't want to take it into consideration because the whole  idea is like Hamburger Helper.  Horrible!

 

A casino belongs in the Flats.  However, a Large convention sized hotel would be well suited near the CC.

[3 Dog Pat]

Maybe just because I enjoy being an annoying little brother, I wonder if Jacobs is doing this just to f*ck with Gilbert, a little tit for tat from the whole convention center/PD/FC/Gilbert mess.

I mean, did he actually use the word "connectivity"

 

If Jacobs owns a casino, I am SURE it will be in the west bank of the flats.  But just to make sure it does not go to Tower City, poof, this idea.  So when Gilbert says lets build one at TC, people will say, well, what about that plan to put it next to the CC?  This vote fails, and the next vote Jacobs gets in on.

[GreenerPastures]

While i like the Scranton Peninsula location, if he has investors prepared to drop $500M in a 1000 room hotel casino in close proximity to the CC, I would not say no. It would create a synergism in the area that could propel the city for decades.

 

M2cents owes me $.50 for that word.

[Etheostoma Caeruleum]

If casinos are the best any given place can do for economic development sparks... I just shake my head in sigh and pity.

[Hts121]

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/08/new_medical_mart_contract_to_c.html

 

New medical mart contract to clear up language in April draft, build in safeguardsPosted by rhiggs August 24, 2009 07:00AM

 

CLEVELAND — A new medical mart contract will add safeguards to an April deal drafted by Cuyahoga County to build a new convention center complex downtown.

 

(continued in link above)

 

[KJP]

I know this is wishful thinking for Cuyahoga County-administered major capital projects, but what if this project comes in well under budget? I pose this only because many major public works projects are coming in 5, 10, 15 percent under budget because contractors are hungry for work and are trying under-bid each other.

 

Coming in just 5 percent under budget for this $425 million convention center project would be $21.25 million. 10 percent would be $42.5 million. 15 percent is $63.75 million.

 

IF that happens here, what should the leftover amount be used for? If it's substantial enough ($10 million, $20 million, etc.), I'd use it to leverage a federal grant for the North Coast Transportation Center to extend the convention center and overhead malls over the tracks and Shoreway to North Coast Harbor (big surprise, eh? OK, a convention hotel is another option!).

 

Parsons Brinckerhoff in 1998 estimated the NCTC would cost $80 million to build. Today, that's $105.69 million according to http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl. A local funding share of 20 percent would be needed, or $21.14 million with the rest coming from federal transit and/or federal railroad funds.

 

Could that much money ($20+ million) become available? If so, is this the best use of a cost "underrun"?

[clvlndr]

A casino belongs in the Flats. However, a Large convention sized hotel would be well suited near the CC.

 

MTS, I think only you and me are the only 2 people in Cleveland who believe a large convention center hotel (which Cleveland needs and would dwarf every other downtown hotel) should absolutely should be a part of this project... Everybody else thinks that since the new center will be thinks the CC will be OK since it'll be w/in 6 blocks of the Cleveland Motel 6.

[SuperKidSpliff]

Anyone know why there deciding to make he Medical Mart Building horizontal instead of vertical? Which to me and almost everyone else is a sexier look.

Also can someone explain to me in laymen terms whats the meaning in mayday's latest picture?

[X]

A casino belongs in the Flats. However, a Large convention sized hotel would be well suited near the CC.

 

MTS, I think only you and me are the only 2 people in Cleveland who believe a large convention center hotel (which Cleveland needs and would dwarf every other downtown hotel) should absolutely should be a part of this project... Everybody else thinks that since the new center will be thinks the CC will be OK since it'll be w/in 6 blocks of the Cleveland Motel 6.

 

Are you trying to contribute to the discussion, or just start fights?

[3 Dog Pat]

Imagine the medical mart like a shopping mall so it works better horizontal rather than verticale

 

The rendering is Jeff Jacobs idea for a convention center casino/hotel

[KJP]

 

Everybody else thinks...

 

 

Some of the most dangerous actions in human history were prefaced by that comment. How arrogant of you to claim to know what everybody else is thinking.

[3 Dog Pat]

Zen now people!

[MayDay]

 

Folks, despite what you've been told, there really are STUPID questions. Keep asking them, and you'll find yourself suspended so you can spend time getting caught up. 98% of your fellow forumers can do it, so can you.

[alanr]

Today I walked from the County Court to the City Hall on Lakeview, and I realized it would not be a bad thing if the owners of that building on St. Clair (is 212 its name?) refuse to sell it to the Medical Mart, and the Mart has to use the County building instead:  if one of those two buildings is to go down and be replaced by a newer one, I'd much rather see the shabby County building go down, rather than the newer, somewhat taller, better-looking 212 building.

 

Plus, the "skyline" on St. Clair in that area looks better already compared to how it looks on the Lakeview side.  Plus, the view from Lakeview (overseeing the lake, Browns Stadium, the Great Lakes Science Center) is nicer than from St. Clair (overseeing some other buildings across the street), so a visitor to the MedMart would have a much nicer "Cleveland experience" when looking out the window.

[GreenerPastures]

Today I walked from the County Court to the City Hall on Lakeview, and I realized it would not be a bad thing if the owners of that building on St. Clair (is 212 its name?) refuse to sell it to the Medical Mart, and the Mart has to use the County building instead: if one of those two buildings is to go down and be replaced by a newer one, I'd much rather see the shabby County building go down, rather than the newer, somewhat taller, better-looking 212 building.

 

Plus, the "skyline" on St. Clair in that area looks better already compared to how it looks on the Lakeview side. Plus, the view from Lakeview (overseeing the lake, Browns Stadium, the Great Lakes Science Center) is nicer than from St. Clair (overseeing some other buildings across the street), so a visitor to the MedMart would have a much nicer "Cleveland experience" when looking out the window.

 

True. it would be nice for the employee to have a view but it's "back" would be to the city. The vast majority of it's visitors will be coming from the south where the front door should properly be. The "view" would be to Public Square, the Mall and lake to the east and north overlooking the Administration Blg.

[Hts121]

Today I walked from the County Court to the City Hall on Lakeview, and I realized it would not be a bad thing if the owners of that building on St. Clair (is 212 its name?) refuse to sell it to the Medical Mart, and the Mart has to use the County building instead:  if one of those two buildings is to go down and be replaced by a newer one, I'd much rather see the shabby County building go down, rather than the newer, somewhat taller, better-looking 212 building.

 

Plus, the "skyline" on St. Clair in that area looks better already compared to how it looks on the Lakeview side.  Plus, the view from Lakeview (overseeing the lake, Browns Stadium, the Great Lakes Science Center) is nicer than from St. Clair (overseeing some other buildings across the street), so a visitor to the MedMart would have a much nicer "Cleveland experience" when looking out the window.

 

The street you were on is Lakeside, not Lakeview.  The building you are referring to is 113 St. Clair, not 212.

 

IMO, 113 is coming down regardless of whether they sell to the county or not.  The owners are either going to get top dollar from the county or they will sit back and wait for the MM to be constructed right next door.  That would give them two options that I can foresee: (1) one large parking garage, replacing 113 and the existing garage; or (2) mega hotel.

 

[KJP]

They're not going to sell to the county unless the county offers them what they want. I think they'd rather sit on that land, wait and see how well the CC/MM performs, and then make their next move.

[msa1092]

I think it was last week that there was an article about the medical mart in the Plain Dealer.

 

It said that Chris Kennedy and his company or w/e had over a 100 companies interested in Cleveland's medical mart.

 

If our medical mart is super successful, is it likely that the medical mart (and maybe even the convention center?) could be expanded in the future?

[3 Dog Pat]

Since the MM is above ground, I can't see why not.

 

IIRC, that was one of the knocks of the TC site, that it couldn't be easily expanded.

 

Let's get it built first, then worry about expansion :)