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Israel plans barrier along border with Egypt

 

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israel will build barrier along its southern border with Egypt to stop illegal crossings, the prime minister said.

 

"I decided to close Israel's southern border to infiltrators and terrorists after prolonged discussions with government ministries and professional elements," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in a statement late Sunday.

 

"This is a strategic decision to ensure the Jewish and democratic character of the state of Israel. Israel will remain open to war refugees, but we cannot allow thousands of illegal workers to infiltrate into Israel via the southern border and flood our country," he added.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/01/11/israel.egypt.border/index.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Things are getting a little out of control between Israel and Gaza. Israel has pretty much been unrelenting in the aggressive retaliation toward Gaza militants. Meanwhile the US turns a blind eye.

 

Here is a post I saw on Facebook of Israeli citizens watching the bombings on Gaza and cheering every time there is an explosion...

 

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Just read this post. The guy says Hamas decided to up their game in an effort to get more funding and the little dance these guys have has just completely escalated.

Hamas is no good for anybody.

http://np.reddit.com/r/arabs/comments/2a8lh5/discussion_palestinian_death_toll_in_the_gaza/cism6ql

 

I actually think that Hamas could be seen as a good thing for Israel. No only is Hamas essentially harmless to Israelis, but they also give Israel cover to behave like brutes is slaughtering hundreds of Palestinians and pillaging their land as they see fit while the international community does nothing.

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^Wait until Hamas starts cat-calling the jewish women!

 

^^Ah, but you might be unwittingly on to something.  Israeli aggression is the best recruiting tool Hamas has.  In turn, Hamas is the best justification for Israeli aggression.  If you want to get rid of Hamas and organizations like it, the best starting point would be looking at ways to reduce the 80% youth unemployment in Gaza, which is mostly caused by the Israeli blockade, which is mostly caused by the militant strikes on Israel, which is mostly caused by the personal effects Israeli military actions have had personally on the lives of the militant recruits, which is mostly caused by the......... I think you get it.  It's a mess.  The result of a monumental miscalculation which occurred more than half-century ago.

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Just read this post. The guy says Hamas decided to up their game in an effort to get more funding and the little dance these guys have has just completely escalated.

Hamas is no good for anybody.

http://np.reddit.com/r/arabs/comments/2a8lh5/discussion_palestinian_death_toll_in_the_gaza/cism6ql

 

I actually think that Hamas could be seen as a good thing for Israel. No only is Hamas essentially harmless to Israelis, but they also give Israel cover to behave like brutes is slaughtering hundreds of Palestinians and pillaging their land as they see fit while the international community does nothing.

I didn't know that defending your nation against terrorists who attacked you and trying to eliminate them once and for all as a threat was considered "cover." You learn something new every day here.

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Just read this post. The guy says Hamas decided to up their game in an effort to get more funding and the little dance these guys have has just completely escalated.

Hamas is no good for anybody.

http://np.reddit.com/r/arabs/comments/2a8lh5/discussion_palestinian_death_toll_in_the_gaza/cism6ql

 

I actually think that Hamas could be seen as a good thing for Israel. No only is Hamas essentially harmless to Israelis, but they also give Israel cover to behave like brutes is slaughtering hundreds of Palestinians and pillaging their land as they see fit while the international community does nothing.

Is this a joke?

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I didn't know that defending your nation against terrorists who attacked you and trying to eliminate them once and for all as a threat was considered "cover." You learn something new every day here.

 

"Defending your nation"? Horsesh*t. Here's an analogy: What's happening in the Middle East is akin to American citizens illegally building settlements in Mexico and the American military blockading Mexican ports. Then claiming that when Mexicans fight back that they're "terrorists" and that they must be destroyed, up to and including sending troops into Mexico to hunt down hundreds of people that we proclaim to be "terrorists."

 

Obviously this analogy has weaknesses, including the fact that there is only a fraction of hate between Americans and Mexicans that exists between Israelis and Palestinians and the fact that the Mexicans would probably be able to fight back somewhat more effectively than the Palestinians can.  But the point remains that although Hamas is a big problem and the Palestinians need to make some concessions, Israel is responsible for a huge chunk of the blame for the conflict because they think that they can do what they want with land that is absolutely not theirs.

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I suppose this weeks Irresponsibility Award goes to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

 

It Turns Out Hamas Didn’t Kidnap and Kill the 3 Israeli Teens After All [updated]

By Katie Zavadski

 

When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

 

But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

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All of this assumes that it was legitimate for the UN to establish a "Jewish state" in lands where other people already lived. It's a basic problem of colonialism: just like the Americans did in Ohio in the late 1790s and early 1800s, people looking for a place to 'call their own', ie, settler colonists, took over lands that were already occupied by another group of people. When those people resisted (Palestinians, Miami Indians, etc), the established inhabitants resisted, rightly I think we would most agree, should we be in their position, but were beaten back by a superior military force. There isn't much to debate here - it's a problem of one people taking land and homes from another. This is usually referred to as the "Greater Israel" project, correct? Why should we be surprised when a people tries to defend their homes from someone else claiming it - even US law respects the right of self-defense on your own property.

 

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I will never believe that God would want anyone to kill anyone in the name of or in defense of their religion.  Yet religion has been the cause of or basis of wars for millenia's, in many cases the sole reason for war.  The Jewish/Muslim mass murders is just the current example.

 

When all people start measuring their righteousness by how well they treat all others rather than by what place of worship they attend to affirm that their system of beliefs are right and all other are wrong, the world will become a better place.

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I tend to agree that Israel is within their rights to try & wipe Hamas out once & for all.  Prior to the air strikes, Israel has been issuing mass robophone calls to warn Palestinian residents that live near targets, they drop leaflets, etc.  One of their main targets is the vast network of tunnels which allows Hamas to smuggle weapons & such in & around the Gaza area.  Destroying this network of tunnels should go a long way in preserving peace

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Israel has zero chance of wiping Hamas out once & for all.  Zero.  Israeli military action does for Hamas' recruiting efforts what Hamas' tactics do for Israeli war propaganda.  Israel knows this.  That said, I don't know what choice it has, other than to 'scratch the itch.'  It's an impossible situation or, perhaps better put, an unfortunate reality.

 

One solution I thought of recently was to give the Palestinians a chunk of land to call home.  I think there is this swath in Nevada under the control of the BLM which we could give to them.  It doesn't have any legal owner outside of the government.  The citizens (some guy named Bundy) who cross it occasionally probably won't mind and certainly won't react with armed threats.

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I tend to agree that Israel is within their rights to try & wipe Hamas out once & for all.  Prior to the air strikes, Israel has been issuing mass robophone calls to warn Palestinian residents that live near targets, they drop leaflets, etc.  One of their main targets is the vast network of tunnels which allows Hamas to smuggle weapons & such in & around the Gaza area.  Destroying this network of tunnels should go a long way in preserving peace

 

Do the Palestinians have no right to their land, freedom of passage, sovereignty, and self-defense? Or is that just a concept that the international community is willing to afford only to Israel?

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One solution I thought of recently was to give the Palestinians a chunk of land to call home.  I think there is this swath in Nevada under the control of the BLM which we could give to them.  It doesn't have any legal owner outside of the government.  The citizens (some guy named Bundy) who cross it occasionally probably won't mind and certainly won't react with armed threats.

 

I know you're joking, but there were serious proposals in the late 1940s to create a Jewish homeland in Uganda. Prior to that, proposals for a Jewish homeland ranged from areas in South America to Australia. How much better off would everyone have been if that had taken place? Sadly, the religionists won the day and the Jews were given land in a region in which they had a tenuous contemporary connection, and it's been a powder keg ever since. Assuming that history is just that and there's no putting the toothpaste back in the bottle, it's time for both sides to accept a two-state solution with inalienable borders (probably going back to 1948) and state sovereignty.  Anything short of that is an affront to humanity.

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I tend to agree that Israel is within their rights to try & wipe Hamas out once & for all.  Prior to the air strikes, Israel has been issuing mass robophone calls to warn Palestinian residents that live near targets, they drop leaflets, etc.  One of their main targets is the vast network of tunnels which allows Hamas to smuggle weapons & such in & around the Gaza area.  Destroying this network of tunnels should go a long way in preserving peace

"Wiping out" and "destroying" in the name of..."peace"?

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If you guys watched the video then you know that Israel has previously agreed to give a chunk of land to Palestine. One side, not the Jews, didn't like this and things haven't gotten any better since.

 

If Canada started shooting rockets at America simply because we are America then I would also be praising the returned fire that our military would give them.

 

I'm curious if Hamas calls ahead to warn Israelis that a rocket will be launched into their area.

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^^^Uganda?  South America? Australia? Why not Iceland?? Honestly, I think if I didn't know better I was reading The Onion. In case anyone isn't familiar with ancient history at even the most rudimentary level (you know, like the stuff in the Bible--but who can believe that!), Israel was the Jewish homeland going back many millennia, way before the Palestinians (who are of course Arab) got there. But hey, Google it! Like, okay? Meanwhile, I'll continue to enjoy the satire  :-)

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If you guys watched the video then you know that Israel has previously agreed to give a chunk of land to Palestine. One side, not the Jews, didn't like this and things haven't gotten any better since.

 

If Canada started shooting rockets at America simply because we are America then I would also be praising the returned fire that our military would give them.

 

If the United States began occupying Newfoundland and Labrador illegally during a wartime invasion, cutting these lands off from the rest of the world, and the Canadians fought back using whatever means available to them and then we offered to give Canada back Labrador but not Newfoundland, and then claimed that the Canadians were terrorists who were unwilling to negotiate, perhaps your analogy may make more sense. But if that were to happen, few in the United States and few in the international community would try to justify our actions because it would be so obvious that we were in the wrong. So why can't folks see that what Israel is doing is clearly out-of-bounds as well?

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^^^Uganda?  South America? Australia? Why not Iceland?? Honestly, I think if I didn't know better I was reading The Onion. In case anyone isn't familiar with ancient history at even the most rudimentary level (you know, like the stuff in the Bible--but who can believe that!), Israel was the Jewish homeland going back many millennia, way before the Palestinians (who are of course Arab) got there. But hey, Google it! Like, okay? Meanwhile, I'll continue to enjoy the satire  :-)

 

You lose all credibility when you starting basing an argument for genocide, ethnic cleansing, and human rights violations on ancient history and Biblical land claims. I mean that's an extreme justification that has no place in modern day policy decision-making.

 

If the Jews (or any other religious group) needed a "homeland" (a ridiculous notion in my opinion, but I'll humor it for this discussion), then it should never have been created in an area in which they had no contemporary ties and which would have required the massive displacement of another group of people. That's why all of those other suggestions made much more sense than any claims to Mandatory Palestine where Jews were outnumbered significantly by Muslim and even Christian Arabs.

 

Heck, a good argument can even be made that the Russians have a more realistic geographic, demographic, and modern historic claim to Crimea in 2014 than the Jews had to Palestine in 1948. Yet the same folks that have blindly supported Israel's behavior over the years are whining the loudest about Crimea.

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^^^Uganda?  South America? Australia? Why not Iceland?? Honestly, I think if I didn't know better I was reading The Onion. In case anyone isn't familiar with ancient history at even the most rudimentary level (you know, like the stuff in the Bible--but who can believe that!), Israel was the Jewish homeland going back many millennia, way before the Palestinians (who are of course Arab) got there. But hey, Google it! Like, okay? Meanwhile, I'll continue to enjoy the satire  :-)

 

You lose all credibility when you starting basing an argument for genocide, ethnic cleansing, and human rights violations on ancient history and Biblical land claims. I mean that's an extreme justification that has no place in modern day policy decision-making.

 

If the Jews (or any other religious group) needed a "homeland" (a ridiculous notion in my opinion, but I'll humor it for this discussion), then it should never have been created in an area in which they had no contemporary ties and which would have required the massive displacement of another group of people. That's why all of those other suggestions made much more sense than any claims to Mandatory Palestine where Jews were outnumbered significantly by Muslim and even Christian Arabs.

 

Heck, a good argument can even be made that the Russians have a more realistic geographic, demographic, and modern historic claim to Crimea in 2014 than the Jews had to Palestine in 1948. Yet the same folks that have blindly supported Israel's behavior over the years are whining the loudest about Crimea.

and you lose all credibility by making ludicrous, hateful statements accusing Israel of "genocide, ethnic cleansing, and human rights violations" when the fact is there are millions of Arabs who are Israeli citizens living lives that are more prosperous, peaceful and free of strife than anything they'll find in pretty much any other part of the Middle East.

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If Canada started shooting rockets at America simply because we are America then I would also be praising the returned fire that our military would give them.

 

Your hate of Canada has been reported to the Moderators.

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A better example than the US and Canada would probably be if Indians started lobbing missiles from their reservations towards US cities.  Would they be justified?  Would we be justified in retaliating?  We did after all colonize and take this land through a combination of force, subterfuge, and shear demographic weight.  Of course, I don't know who is on land that they didn't at some point conquer from previous inhabitants, so this is a justification for war held by just about any group of people, as well as a justification for war that is held by someone against just about any group people.

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I first heard of Hamas in a comic book, Palestine, by Joe Sacco. He paints a fairly even picture with good & bad on both sides. He also points out that back in the 90s, the Palestinians thought Hamas was guano mad. Parents were really afraid their kids might get seduced by their rhetoric. Guess what? They were. They made a point of recruiting  dumb kids.

They are evil.

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I first heard of Hamas in a comic book, Palestine, by Joe Sacco. He paints a fairly even picture with good & bad on both sides. He also points out that back in the 90s, the Palestinians thought Hamas was guano mad. Parents were really afraid their kids might get seduced by their rhetoric. Guess what? They were. They made a point of recruiting  dumb kids.

They are evil.

 

 

Hamas is losing all credibility amongst Palestinians, and it's arguable that they were ever that popular to begin with. Hamas operates like a dictatorship and will violently suppress any contest to their authority. Sad sad situation all around.

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and you lose all credibility by making ludicrous, hateful statements accusing Israel of "genocide, ethnic cleansing, and human rights violations" when the fact is there are millions of Arabs who are Israeli citizens living lives that are more prosperous, peaceful and free of strife than anything they'll find in pretty much any other part of the Middle East.

 

So calling Israel's actions over the years for what they are is "hateful"?

 

In regards to the standard of living offered in Israel to some Arabs, that's great, I respect Jews/Israel for creating a much freer and more open society than any Islamic-based state would offer, but that absolutely does not absolve them of their violations against humanity over the history of their existence even up until today. Many Native Americans in this country have access to a much higher quality of life than they likely would have ever had had no European colonists stepped foot on this continent; that does not erase the nasty and despicable things that we did to them and their land.

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A better example than the US and Canada would probably be if Indians started lobbing missiles from their reservations towards US cities.  Would they be justified?  Would we be justified in retaliating?  We did after all colonize and take this land through a combination of force, subterfuge, and shear demographic weight.  Of course, I don't know who is on land that they didn't at some point conquer from previous inhabitants, so this is a justification for war held by just about any group of people, as well as a justification for war that is held by someone against just about any group people.

 

I do think that this is a better analogy, but there are problems with it including the fact that we've given them land and sovereignty and haven't really reneged on that anytime recently (that I'm aware of), "we" outnumber "them" significantly and thus there's not much hope for them of ever getting it back, and that we're not limiting their movement or ability to live a good life.

 

I first heard of Hamas in a comic book, Palestine, by Joe Sacco. He paints a fairly even picture with good & bad on both sides. He also points out that back in the 90s, the Palestinians thought Hamas was guano mad. Parents were really afraid their kids might get seduced by their rhetoric. Guess what? They were. They made a point of recruiting  dumb kids.

They are evil.

 

There's absolutely no debating that Hamas is scum and their values system is infinitely worse than that of Israeli leaders. But Hamas is the elected leadership (allegedly) of a people that has a right to its own land and to handle its own fate by the decisions it makes for itself. Israel does not have much of a leg to stand on when it's been engaging in illegal and unethical actions since before it was even a country. If Israel really has the moral high ground, it should act like it and establish more realistic borders that are more in line with the land it was given legally and not the land that it has decided to take. From there it should recognize Palestinian statehood and sovereignty and encourage the rest of the Western world to do so as well. This would show me that there are actual adults running Israel and not the childish religious zealots that have been seemingly creating policy since Day 1. If/when this happens, and if Palestinians then still launch rockets and engage in terrorist attacks, Israel and the international community should do whatever it needs to do to quiet that down.

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I tend to agree that Israel is within their rights to try & wipe Hamas out once & for all.  Prior to the air strikes, Israel has been issuing mass robophone calls to warn Palestinian residents that live near targets, they drop leaflets, etc.  One of their main targets is the vast network of tunnels which allows Hamas to smuggle weapons & such in & around the Gaza area.  Destroying this network of tunnels should go a long way in preserving peace

"Wiping out" and "destroying" in the name of..."peace"?

 

Hamas isn't a country it's a terrorist organization that's rejected by Palestinians for the most part.  Yes it should be wiped out in the name of peace.  Randomly lobbing missiles over the border at Israelis...?

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You guys need to read a little history.  There was no Palestinian state, there never was.  Nothing was ever taken away from anyone.  As EVD says, the Arabs that were there, and those living there now, have prospered and have a fine life.  Any land Israel took after '67 and '73 was taken for their protection after they were invaded.

 

As Jay Thomas said on the radio the other day, if the Palestinians were smart, they would stop fighting, and Israel would turn Lebanon into the beautiful country it once was, "The Paris of the Middle East". 

 

They could be building casinos as we speak!!

 

I'm sorry for what was done to the Indians, I really am, but no one I know did any of it.  Its all part of the "blame America" crowd.  Let's move on and see that it doesn't happen again, that's the best we can do.

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If you substitute Israel for Likud in the Israel-Hamas mutually beneficial relationship that is described above you're a lot more on track and you don't lump in all the people on either side.

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You guys need to read a little history.  There was no Palestinian state, there never was.  Nothing was ever taken away from anyone. 

 

There never was an American Indian state either.  Ownership of land was a foreign concept to them.  That doesn't mean that the American colonialists did not take away their land.  Given its history, Israel/Palestine should never have been 'given' to anyone because everyone has some historical claim to the land.  How did the ancient Jews come into possession of the land in the first place?  Didn't GOD swoop in and wipe it clean of the native inhabitants?  Since then, it has been a bloodbath for millennia, with control changing hands between the Jews, the Romans, the Ottomans, the Crusaders, the Colonialists, the Imperialists, etc., etc.  The "Palestinians' were simply the latest group to live there under some foreign control.

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Exactly!  So now the Jews are the current group to live there under some foreign control.  Plus they are the first inhabitants there able to make something out of the area.  Everyone could benefit if they wanted too, but they don't.  The hatred in that area, even for similar people, (look at the various Muslim sects in Iraq) is above and beyond anything understood here.

 

I find it ludicrous that anyone here can honestly believe that something more was/is owed the American Indian, and not believe that the Jewish race is owed something from the holocaust.  Here is a chance to correct something long before history says it should have been done. 

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