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Cleveland: Retail News

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Re post 203, I would direct you to 209. 

 

I am the first one to point out the realities of post 209.  But, for the purposes of THIS discussion, that is exactly what they are.... realities.  I don't care if downtown's population doubles to 15,000.... it would not support the level and type of retail you desire.  The neighborhoods AROUND downtown need to fill up, particularly the residential desert going out to E 55th.  That is what separates a lot of other cities from Cleveland.  And, let's not ignore the fact that retail in general is struggling due to several factors, including but not limited to the economy, big-box stores and online shopping. 

 

As someone who is a target customer for high end shopping and wants a Prada in Cleveland more than anyone else, I couldn't agree more!

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What formula are you guys using?  Square footage of the store = its market radius?  Can you supply any other instance where any shopping center's market was estimated with rules like this?  Doesn't your system require a Beachwood Place every 5 miles or so in affluent areas?  Heaven forbid someone would shop somewhere they can't see from their front door.

 

The population of downtown, and its immediate vicinity, are simply not at issue here.  Nor is the population of Beachwood--by itself-- all that important to Beachwood Place.  The market for any major retail operation covers a much larger area.  People aren't expected to ride there on a Big Wheel.  Downtown's market includes Lakewood and Shaker by any rational estimate, i.e. the sort of estimate used for any shopping center not located in downtown Cleveland.

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What formula are you guys using?  Square footage of the store = its market radius?  Can you supply any other instance where any shopping center's market was estimated with rules like this?  Doesn't your system require a Beachwood Place every 5 miles or so in affluent areas?  Heaven forbid someone would shop somewhere they can't see from their front door.

 

The population of downtown, and its immediate vicinity, are simply not at issue here.  Nor is the population of Beachwood--by itself-- all that important to Beachwood Place.  The market for any major retail operation covers a much larger area.  People aren't expected to ride there on a Big Wheel.  Downtown's market includes Lakewood and Shaker by any rational estimate, i.e. the sort of estimate used for any shopping center not located in downtown Cleveland.

 

How many times have we brought this up and given information? The answer to your question can be found in this very thread.  Think about how many times this and similar threads have been locked because you do not agree with the methodology and current economic climate.

 

I strongly suggest we stop this conversation NOW, before this thread is locked again.

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True the population of Just Beechwood isn't solely responsible for keeping Beachwood Place afloat, but with retail the reality is people tend to shop near where they live. Beachwood Place is closer to Shaker than downtown on top of having two anchors that can't be found for hundreds of miles.

 

To keep more upscale retailers downtown needs 25,000 residents who are at least middle/upper middle income earners.

 

 

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MTS first of all, we are discussing Cleveland Retail News, in particular an item on the previous page.  This is not a construction thread.

 

Secondly, you keep referring to all the times your theory has been backed up, but in every case it's just the same repeated assertions.  You use terms like "methodology" even though none has been presented.  Then you tell everyone who disagrees with you to shut up.

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Htsguy, you're more than welcome to go ahead and explain that.  I backed myself up with data on this very page, and I've never told anyone here to hush because I think they're wrong.  I do frequently ask people to explain, as I've done with you just now, even though your post adds nothing but personal animosity to this discussion.  The devil face does soften it a bit, I guess.  Nice work.

 

Hts121, I think that's what we're all doing, for the most part.  But you get a gold star too.  I'm not one to play favorites.

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I am the first one to point out the realities of post 209.  But, for the purposes of THIS discussion, that is exactly what they are.... realities.  I don't care if downtown's population doubles to 15,000.... it would not support the level and type of retail you desire.  The neighborhoods AROUND downtown need to fill up, particularly the residential desert going out to E 55th.  That is what separates a lot of other cities from Cleveland.  And, let's not ignore the fact that retail in general is struggling due to several factors, including but not limited to the economy, big-box stores and online shopping. 

 

I think this is as big of an issue as it pertains to downtown retail as the actual downtown population, and is an obvious problem for Cleveland. In fact I might say that this is Cleveland's biggest problem. The cities that are relatively similar to Cleveland's metro size, which do have the type of retail we would like to see in Cleveland, not only have a more robust downtown population but also have healthy neighborhoods that are directly adjacent to downtown.

 

Aside from downtown residential infill, Cleveland is in serious need of more infill in the Flats and in the area between E. 30th and E 55th. The near west side neighborhoods must continue to develop more as well. Because of this I think Cleveland needs to have a larger downtown population than other similar places to compensate for the "donut hole" type areas that exist.

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According to Fox 8 Nordstrom Rack might open another location in the Cleveland area at the Promenade Crocker Park.

 

On a side not, in MY opinion, as mentioned before in this thread I think a discount store like Nordstrom Rack, TJ Maxx or Marshall's could do good downtown. It would also cater to a diverse bunch of people.

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While Nordstrom Rack is a "discounted" store, I wouldn't characterize it as a "discount" store like TJ Maxx or Marshalls are, as a whole. A "discount" here can mean that the pair of shoes you have your eye on is now $199, not $399. At TJ Maxx, shoes might be $19.99 instead of $39.99.

 

Anyway, the former Borders at the Promenade has been the rumored Rack location for some time. If opening next fall, it will mean Cleveland gets Rack #2 about the time that Columbus gets their Rack #1, at the new Easton Market.

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That's true, Nordstrom rack is higher in price. Something more along the lines of Tj maxx I think would fit, maybe where Barroom/Cadillac Ranch was.

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I went Nordstrom Rack once with my girlfriend. I didnt think the deals were that great. I literally saw a tag that said "a savings of $0.00, thats 0% off!" And another one that was $0.30 off. Most seemed to be in the $3 to $5 range.

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That's true, Nordstrom rack is higher in price. Something more along the lines of Tj maxx I think would fit, maybe where Barroom/Cadillac Ranch was.

 

This is a great idea.

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That's true, Nordstrom rack is higher in price. Something more along the lines of Tj maxx I think would fit, maybe where Barroom/Cadillac Ranch was.

 

This is a great idea.

 

On face value, good idea but there's already a marshall's (owned by TJmaxx) about 2 miles away at Steelyard. Secondly, I can confirm that DCA had approached them but TJ wasn't interested.

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The May Company Building, a most prominent and attractive space on the square, sits looking filthily and with no significant retail tenant for which the building was designed. ( Just the Tri-C thing) This space should be a priority, and a great candidate for such a store, but it still sits mostly void and getting dirtier looking.  I was disgusted to see that in such a building, with such a history...that a glorified bar was the best that anyone could do to utilize such a space. With more people living downtown and re-discovering it, re-learning how to actually use a downtown, and what one actually is during the decentralizing auto-oriented era, this is a great time.

 

One more food establishment and this part of downtown is nothing more than an outdoor giant food court and a scene of people standing around smoking and pitching their butts all over the nice EC project streetscape...a great exhibition and representation of a vibrant healthy populace Cleveland, for sure. Euclid needs to be interspersed with establishments that create a functional neighborhood in a downtown appealing to stakeholders... 

 

If you live downtown, or close, you simply should not have to get in a car to go to Westlake or Beachwood for such other places found at malls. This is insane. If it continues to become all food, it will cater to mostly non-residents and sports fans. Not a diverse and stable economic example, imo, especially if we continue to rely on the success of Cleveland sports to keep it all going. That is a recipe for disaster and economic type-cast.

 

By the way, speaking of retail..there is a lot of existing retail downtown when you look hard enough...and for guys out there who might be tired of the ripped jeans, t-shirts, sneakers, and baseball cap look.. I suggest M. Lang...  prices are comparable to a Dillards and the quality is impeccable. The service is a real merchant to customer experience by someone who knows their craft. Have a drink there too...

 

And if anyone ever saw this multi-part PBS series, it would be great to get even a tiny fraction of this diversity back downtown and on Euclid. Eventually, maybe people will unlearn the mall habit and re-learn what a downtown is for...  or what could be.. (maybe never to this degree again, but maybe a shift back inwards to growing from within. 

 

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Here's the Rack/Crocker Park announcement...

 

http://www.istockanalyst.com/business/news/6081869/nordstrom-rack-to-open-second-cleveland-store

 

And I'm a 2-3x month Nordstrom Rack shopper - and actually find their deals, especially once they hit clearance, to be very good generally 25-50%+ off on most items whether Lacoste, Cole Haan, North Face or others. I pretty much don't buy shoes anywhere else.

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Guess this means MyTwoSense is going to have to renew his passport to visit the west side (outside of the duty-free zone along the Red Line and at Hopkins Airport, of course). Bob Stark has wanted a Nordstrom's at Crocker Park since before he got the OK to start construction. Guess this is the next-best thing.....

 

Nordstrom Rack moving into shuttered Westlake Borders

3:00 pm, October 9, 2012

 

The vacant Borders Books space at the Promenade in Crocker Park is getting a new tenant next year.

 

Seattle-based Nordstrom Inc. (NYSE: JWN) said today that it plans to open a Nordstrom Rack store in the former Borders space in Westlake. The 34,000-square-foot store is scheduled to open fall 2013.

 

Nordstrom Rack is the off-price retail division of Nordstrom Inc. It carries what the company calls “on-trend merchandise” from Nordstrom stores and Nordstrom.com at 50% to 60% off original Nordstrom prices.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20121009/FREE/121009822#


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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West side Rack will be a must-go for east side Rack fans merely because assortment varies by store - and always good to see what the other has in stock. Certainly I've seen occasions where a certain chain store on one side of town has lots of stock on a great deal/unique item, when the same store on other side of town has sold out, etc...  and/or one store gets different product mix than the other.

 

Rack Westlake = 34,000 sq ft.  Rack Lyndhurst = listed as 42,242 sq ft on Legacy leasing map

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A while ago there was an article from a Nordstrom exec who stated “There are only five viable downtowns for us in the country,” he told me, “New York, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco and Seattle [which is Nordstrom’s headquarters city]. Every other city, active and bustling as it may seem, has the wrong kind of activity at the wrong time.”

 

I thought it might be interesting to look at the populations of the downtowns in the cities mentioned in the quote to get an idea about the number of people living in these downtowns that are deemed viable for retail. From the list though the population for downtown Boston and San Francisco are not available to me (If someone can find them I will put them in).

 

New York Midtown: 46,378

Chicago: 42,563

New York Downtown: 22,732

Seattle: 20,385

Cleveland: 8,433

 

I bolded Seattle because it is lowest and is closest to the 25,000 number for downtown population we hear all the time and Seattle is not on the level of Midtown NYC or Michigan Ave in Chicago.

 

I got the population list here: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=183138

 

and the Nordstrom quote here: http://insiderlouisville.com/news/2011/07/25/as-norstrom-closes-in-indy-dont-hold-your-breathe-for-big-louisville-retail-coupe/

 

Another idea I wanted to hear opinions about was University Circle as the region's retail mecca. If you look at Atlanta (I know) their downtown is void of the types of shops you'd find at Beachwood or Crocker Park, but a few miles away (similar to UC) are two luxury malls that have basically any store you can think of. The area is surrounded by condos, mansions, offices and hotels.

 

That said what do you guys think about UC becoming something similar with retail lining the streets in multi-use buildings and this area supplanting Beachwood as the region's premier retail destination instead of downtown?

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I guarantee an H&M in the former dredgers union space would be a success. You'd hit every group: residents, workers, visitors, sports attendees, concert goers etc.  I think it's a start but probably will never happen. That place is like the universal draw right now no matter your price point. Often no matter how packed E 4th was, DU was totally empty. I know we discussed that already so no need to rehash. Just wish I could find out if maron has courted a popular national brand like H&M. OR if theyd ever think of downtown.

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A while ago there was an article from a Nordstrom exec who stated “There are only five viable downtowns for us in the country,” he told me, “New York, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco and Seattle [which is Nordstrom’s headquarters city]. Every other city, active and bustling as it may seem, has the wrong kind of activity at the wrong time.”

 

I thought it might be interesting to look at the populations of the downtowns in the cities mentioned in the quote to get an idea about the number of people living in these downtowns that are deemed viable for retail. From the list though the population for downtown Boston and San Francisco are not available to me (If someone can find them I will put them in).

 

New York Midtown: 46,378

Chicago: 42,563

New York Downtown: 22,732

Seattle: 20,385

Cleveland: 8,433

 

I bolded Seattle because it is lowest and is closest to the 25,000 number for downtown population we hear all the time and Seattle is not on the level of Midtown NYC or Michigan Ave in Chicago.

 

I got the population list here: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=183138

 

and the Nordstrom quote here: http://insiderlouisville.com/news/2011/07/25/as-norstrom-closes-in-indy-dont-hold-your-breathe-for-big-louisville-retail-coupe/

 

Another idea I wanted to hear opinions about was University Circle as the region's retail mecca. If you look at Atlanta (I know) their downtown is void of the types of shops you'd find at Beachwood or Crocker Park, but a few miles away (similar to UC) are two luxury malls that have basically any store you can think of. The area is surrounded by condos, mansions, offices and hotels.

 

That said what do you guys think about UC becoming something similar with retail lining the streets in multi-use buildings and this area supplanting Beachwood as the region's premier retail destination instead of downtown?

 

But Atlanta tore down the projects and low income in the buckhead area and built those malls.  They then shipped, er , relocated the residents in that area to south atlanta (along with the residents in Techwood).  I'm not a fan of removing people to build something for "the haves".  Also, it took a long time and 4 renovations/additions for Lenox Mall to be what it is today.

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That's true, Nordstrom rack is higher in price. Something more along the lines of Tj maxx I think would fit, maybe where Barroom/Cadillac Ranch was.

 

This is a great idea.

 

On face value, good idea but there's already a marshall's (owned by TJmaxx) about 2 miles away at Steelyard. Secondly, I can confirm that DCA had approached them but TJ wasn't interested.

 

I guarantee an H&M in the former dredgers union space would be a success. You'd hit every group: residents, workers, visitors, sports attendees, concert goers etc.  I think it's a start but probably will never happen. That place is like the universal draw right now no matter your price point. Often no matter how packed E 4th was, DU was totally empty. I know we discussed that already so no need to rehash. Just wish I could find out if maron has courted a popular national brand like H&M. OR if theyd ever think of downtown.

 

You guys need to remember that H&M, Marshalls/TJ Maxx (also burlington coat, etc.) are not destination stores.  The is probably why they did not want to come downtown.  They need anchor stores to "lead in" shoppers.

 

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I see what you're saying in regards to TJ and H & M , but Ari Maron mentioned how the CLE clothing company (low priced clothes) is very successful, where as DU, with a higher price point didn't do well.

 

I also get your points about luxury retail in UC. I just thought I would throw it out there since the focus is on luxury retail back downtown or at Beachwood. I'm interested in people's thoughts on having large scale retail brought to UC as opposed to those other areas. At least then the retail would be in the city and closer to several different modes of mass transit.

 

 

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That said what do you guys think about UC becoming something similar with retail lining the streets in multi-use buildings and this area supplanting Beachwood as the region's premier retail destination instead of downtown?

 

But Atlanta tore down the projects and low income in the buckhead area and built those malls.  They then shipped, er , relocated the residents in that area to south atlanta (along with the residents in Techwood).  I'm not a fan of removing people to build something for "the haves".  Also, it took a long time and 4 renovations/additions for Lenox Mall to be what it is today.

 

I also think UC would have be surrounded by more/wealthier population. If most of the eds/meds of UC lived in and around UC, then it would have the retail draw. Not now.

 

Interesting quote about there being only five downtowns in the entire country that are viable enough for Nordstrom. Are that many downtowns in the U.S. that bad for retail?


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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I see H&M slightly differently than TJMaxx/Marshalls.  I think its the right fit for something like E. 4th, but I understand the no "draw" issue for convincing a store to come downtown.  UC is heading in the right direction but if downtown is struggling to attract retail I really dont think UC will somehow become the mecca of upscale shopping... at least not for a while

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I'm wondering less about what's keeping luxury retail from UC right now, and more about why not promote other growing areas of the city to retailers?

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@Mov2Ohio, I agree. I'll tell you one neighborhood I wonder about. I've often wondered why there isn't more upscale retail in Edgewater. I would imagine that they have the demographics to support it, with Edgewater itself, Detroit-Shoreway and the city of Lakewood all in close proximity. I don't know the exact numbers, but I would have to imagine that the demographics are there. The strip mall and old church next to it would be a prime candidate for "Legacy Village-lite" type shopping center and there's a large lot on W. 117th that could be developed as a department store of some kind or even a Whole Foods. The lack of upscale retail in the wealthiest neighborhood in the city of Cleveland has always baffled me. I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain to me why there's no upscale retail in Edgewater.

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The lack of upscale retail in the wealthiest neighborhood in the city of Cleveland has always baffled me. I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain to me why there's no upscale retail in Edgewater.

 

Could it be Edgewater's proximity to bad neighborhoods?

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@Mov2Ohio, I agree. I'll tell you one neighborhood I wonder about. I've often wondered why there isn't more upscale retail in Edgewater. I would imagine that they have the demographics to support it, with Edgewater itself, Detroit-Shoreway and the city of Lakewood all in close proximity. I don't know the exact numbers, but I would have to imagine that the demographics are there. The strip mall and old church next to it would be a prime candidate for "Legacy Village-lite" type shopping center and there's a large lot on W. 117th that could be developed as a department store of some kind or even a Whole Foods. The lack of upscale retail in the wealthiest neighborhood in the city of Cleveland has always baffled me. I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain to me why there's no upscale retail in Edgewater.

 

I would say its not rich enough, or more specifically the surrounding neighborhoods aren't. While Edgewater itself has a decent income level, Cudell, Detroit Shoreway, etc. don't have one. They have greatly improved as neighborhoods but they aren't ready for full blown upscale retail. Edgewater's zip code median income is under $30,000. Granted, that includes some less desirable areas but pretty much every retailer uses at least a 3-5 mile radius to judge an area's income level. Edgewater doesn't do well by using that metric. Lakewood isn't exactly an upscale city either. Its really a mix of various demographics. Downtown Lakewood has shopping, but I don't think any of it is really upscale. Having all those apartments in the area doesn't help from a purely income perspective. It helps drag down the numbers a bit and hurts its retail cred a little compared to cities like a Rocky River.

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Granted, that includes some less desirable areas but pretty much every retailer uses at least a 3-5 mile radius to judge an area's income level.

 

Welp, that's it. If that's the criteria for most retailers then Cleveland is screwed. Goodnight everyone.

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@Mov2Ohio, I agree. I'll tell you one neighborhood I wonder about. I've often wondered why there isn't more upscale retail in Edgewater. I would imagine that they have the demographics to support it, with Edgewater itself, Detroit-Shoreway and the city of Lakewood all in close proximity. I don't know the exact numbers, but I would have to imagine that the demographics are there. The strip mall and old church next to it would be a prime candidate for "Legacy Village-lite" type shopping center and there's a large lot on W. 117th that could be developed as a department store of some kind or even a Whole Foods. The lack of upscale retail in the wealthiest neighborhood in the city of Cleveland has always baffled me. I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain to me why there's no upscale retail in Edgewater.

 

Ohh boy.  I have been wondering why there has not been more retail in this area as well. 

 

I know the strip mall was held back from development for a few years because Giant Eagle paid the landlord rent in an effort to keep grocery from going back in there.  I'm not sure what the status of that ugly building the city owns behind there but I think it needs knocked down.  The city does not have the money to keep it up or repair it so bundle it with the old Giant Eagle and put in some apartments with ground floor retail. Everybody seems to like that building but no one has the funding to do something with it.

 

I have been eagerly awaiting news on that old JB Byrider lot on W117.  I'm not sure what a good fit for that is but It will be a good sign once it gets developed. 

 

I think a Whole Foods would do well at that location.  Sappelles and Giant Eagle are two totally different markets.  It really sucks having to hump it over to River Heinens to go shopping.  I just cant stand that Giant Eagle and Sappelles is good for this and that spur of the moment but that's about it.

 

We have not even touched on all the vacancies along Clifton especially on the North side of the street between W117 and the Shoreway.  That whole section where Truffles used to be. 

 

But hey, a Duncan Doughnuts is going in on W117 so the area has that going for it............

 

 

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Cleveland has enough trouble, in a relative sense, getting key upscale retailers into Legacy, Beachwood, Eton, Crocker and with solid demographics all around those. Thinking they'll go to Edgewater or UCircle or downtown is a pipe dream, no matter how dreamy that would be.

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Granted, that includes some less desirable areas but pretty much every retailer uses at least a 3-5 mile radius to judge an area's income level.

 

Welp, that's it. If that's the criteria for most retailers then Cleveland is screwed. Goodnight everyone.

 

And with that all that will be attracted to the new strip center the neighborhood development corp is proposing for that spot is a Dollar General, which I beleive they think would be an improvement over what is there now. 

 

I say it will be the deciding factor of the future of this neighborhood, which should be a premier neighborhood btw. 

 

If they dont hold out for something better, like what was previously planned for the site, they will be sorry.   

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"And with that all that will be attracted to the new strip center the neighborhood development corp is proposing for that spot is a Dollar General, which I beleive they think would be an improvement over what is there now."

 

Do you have any citations for this?  I ask because I'd love to get the word out.

 

 

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Maybe instead of wringing our hands about national upscale chains, we should have a retail strategy that tries to develop local retailers that can target themselves to the niches that actually do exist in our city by experimenting with product mix and size.

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Maybe instead of wringing our hands about national upscale chains, we should have a retail strategy that tries to develop local retailers that can target themselves to the niches that actually do exist in our city by experimenting with product mix and size.

 

This would be fantastic.

 

Pursuing a Dollar General for Edgewater would be gross incompetence on the part of the CDC.

 

Which is exactly why Edgewater should have its own CDC, instead of being lumped into Cudell's.

 

It is definitely an odd marriage.  What gets me is that someone at the Cudell/Edgewater CDC, who's in a position to make decisions and speak for the city, apparently believes a Dollar General on Clifton is appropriate.  That's an even odder marriage.

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