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^I don't know what Columbus has but I don't think high end when I think of that city.  Pittsburgh just lost their Saks and Indy just lost their downtown Nordstroms (although I think they have one in the burbs).

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Htsguy: CMH/PIT/IND - high end retailers maybe not in every case - "upscale" probably more the right terms... see below

 

Pittsburgh has upscale/unique stores like Louis Vuitton (freestanding, CLE's is in Saks, though nice), Juicy Couture, Burberry, Tiffany & Co, MIchael Kors, Kate Spade, LL Bean, REI, etc, etc.. (most in a mall no better than Great Northern on the other end...). Yes, they lost Saks recently..  Columbus has much of the same above now or coming. Indy - lost downtown Nordstrom - but have much of the same above in their suburban "Fashion Mall"incl Nordstrom - and it's undergoing a significant expansion this year so more new will come.  Each of these metros has some 1MM fewer folks than NEO... Not even talking about major markets like PHL or ATL that we can't possibly compete with - and won't try to.

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^Okay here is my theory why no free standing stores.  Stores like Burberry, Fendi, Gucci, Chanel are going to want to be located together and in Cleveland they are going to want to be on the east side...and guess what, there is no room at the usual suspects in most instances for multiple high end stores.  Since they are already selling their wares in the city at multiple locations, Saks, Nordstrom, some smaller boutiques (I bought my first Burberry coat at a small men's store on Shaker Square way back when) they figure why bother.

 

Edit:  LL Bean?

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Yes - LL Bean has some full-line stores at places like Ross Park Mall in PIT and Old Orchard in Chicago... or perhaps the question is - "is that upscale?"... Either way - exclusive retailer not in a city like ours"

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Ironically, today at work I overheard two older ladies talking about Tower city. Unfortunately for me, I have to work in the suburbs, which I would leave in half a second for the opportunity to work downtown! Being here though, I often hear negativity about going downtown. I was very surprised to hear one of the ladies talk about recently attending the film Festival, and she mentioned how gorgeous Tower city is and could be. They both were commenting on the casino, medical Mart, and other changes happening downtown, and we're both very hopeful that Tower city would soon attract a better mix of stores. I thought it was very encouraging to hear 2 suburbanites who I wouldn't think would care about shopping downtown, have a desire for Tower city to succeed. I definitely think if there was some sort of transformation, there would be a demand.

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Ironically, today at work I overheard two older ladies talking about Tower city. Unfortunately for me, I have to work in the suburbs, which I would leave in half a second for the opportunity to work downtown! Being here though, I often hear negativity about going downtown. I was very surprised to hear one of the ladies talk about recently attending the film Festival, and she mentioned how gorgeous Tower city is and could be. They both were commenting on the casino, medical Mart, and other changes happening downtown, and we're both very hopeful that Tower city would soon attract a better mix of stores. I thought it was very encouraging to hear 2 suburbanites who I wouldn't think would care about shopping downtown, have a desire for Tower city to succeed. I definitely think if there was some sort of transformation, there would be a demand.

 

Heck, I work downtown and I hear the same commentary. Sometimes it's uplifting but other times talking to co-workers can be very draining.

 

KJP the TC Phase II riverfront plan is stunning. To me it would be prudent for Casino Phase II to use that as a model for their own dvelopment.

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Yes - LL Bean has some full-line stores at places like Ross Park Mall in PIT and Old Orchard in Chicago... or perhaps the question is - "is that upscale?"... Either way - exclusive retailer not in a city like ours"

 

Cleveland is radically underserved on the luxury front...especially when it comes to places like Tiffany & Co.  And REI should have a store somewhere in NEO...it would definitely do well.

 

I know this is off topic but I was in the LL Bean at Old Orchard yesterday...the staff outnumbered the customers by about 4:1. 

I don't give that place a positive long term outlook.

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It's funny because when I moved to Columbus in 1991 it seemed like their downtown mall - City Center - had so much going on...including a Gucci, Polo, Armani Exchange, Fendi, Henri Bendel, etc.  It also had three solid anchor stores in Marshall Field's, Lazarus and Jacobson's. 

 

Now instead of Marshall Field's, it IS a field. 

 

At least Tower City is still standing.  I predict a big upswing once the casino is up and running.  Dan Gilbert won't have it any other way.

And just like in cleveland those stores closed.  I don't think Columbus was ready.  Cleveland was ahead of its time and as ive said earlier.

 

Both had stores that went bankrupt, like Gucci that had nothing to do with the local market spending ability.  Bendel's is a Columbus based HQ store and that the only reason it was built.

 

You are right about Gucci.  There is a new Bendel's going in at Old Orchard here.  It would not have been in Columbus if it was not owned by Wexner/Limited.

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ChiCleveKid: i felt the same way about LLBean at Old Orchard. Empty!!! I don't know why but keep wondering if REI might make an appearance in NEO soon. They are opening a Cincy store and have 2 in Pittsburgh. There is a just-vacant Filene's Basement at Harvard and 271 that I'm telepathically trying to will them towards. Similar to REI spots in Detroit, Pittaburgh, Cincy. As for Tiffany, rumor is this year....

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To change the subject, the entire Higbee's side of the sidewalk outside Tower City was closed today.  Is this because they are starting to work on fixing up the sidewalks/etc. before the casino opens, or were they just fixing doors?  I'm hoping for the former and think it's more logical since they blocked off everything up to the street...

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Since the Retail News thread is locked right now - I'm posting this info here. Cleveland is - as several posters, including me, have noted - the most under-served (upscale) retail market in the country. No question. It defies logic that an area of our size is lacking so many retailers and restaurants that are in metros big and small... I don't get it...

 

So, for several years, I've been trying to track (merely as a hobby) how behind the curve NEO is in having not pie-in-the-sky retailers that only hit the biggest cities (Cartier, Bulgari, Prada) - but merely trendy or upscale retailers many of the top 40 metros - and nearly all of the top 20-25 metros - have (such as Tiffany, Container Store IKEA, Puma, etc...).  Why metros half our size have 5-10-15 key retailers we don't just doesn't make sense.  Why 24 of the top 26 metros have an IKEA or 31 of the top 32 metros have a Tiffany - but not NEO - doesn't make sense...

 

The sad truth is shown on the attached PDF... (all retailers/restaurants that are not currently present in NEO)

 

Enjoy...

 

 

 

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A revamped Tower City aside, between Eton, Legacy, La Place and Beachwood Place - you'd think there were enough similar retailers/prime spaces/vacant spaces to attract other luxury retailers - and that the market size and relative wealth would ensure the job got done. However, Columbus, Indianapolis and Pittsburgh, for starters, have significantly more high-end retailers than Cleveland - and yet their metros can't compare in size, or presumably wealth, to NEO... I just don't get it... Most under-served luxury market in the USA, indeed...

 

 

Why did phase do fall through? Maybe this already got answered but I didn't see it yet.

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To change the subject, the entire Higbee's side of the sidewalk outside Tower City was closed today.  Is this because they are starting to work on fixing up the sidewalks/etc. before the casino opens, or were they just fixing doors?  I'm hoping for the former and think it's more logical since they blocked off everything up to the street...

 

A while back there were plans for upgrading the entire entrance of the Casino all the way to the entrance to Tower City, with new lighting, sidewalks, etc. 

 

Maybe they are starting???

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To change the subject, the entire Higbee's side of the sidewalk outside Tower City was closed today.  Is this because they are starting to work on fixing up the sidewalks/etc. before the casino opens, or were they just fixing doors?  I'm hoping for the former and think it's more logical since they blocked off everything up to the street...

 

A while back there were plans for upgrading the entire entrance of the Casino all the way to the entrance to Tower City, with new lighting, sidewalks, etc. 

 

Maybe they are starting???

 

Based on the way that they have closed it all the way to the street and the markings that have been spray painted on the ground this would be my guess.  From what I recall it is an improvement, and a much needed one, but not a major overhaul by any means.  Feeling to lazy to try and find the plans right now.

 

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Why did phase do fall through? Maybe this already got answered but I didn't see it yet.

 

NM signed their letter of intent in 1989 and construction was scheduled to begin in 1990. Unfortunately, retail and the economy started to fall apart right at that time. This article mentions the TC expansion being stopped - http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/30/realestate/focus-cleveland-bucking-the-national-trend-on-shopping-malls.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm. Lending for shopping centers dried up after many retailers ran into financial problems. It even impacted NM. In 1991, NM had some very bad quarters. They lost quite a bit of money that year as the recession hit. It was a short issue as NM would go on to have a decent 1992 and open several new stores although their sales were down that year.

 

In the end, the 90s recession pretty much killed that second phase. While NM came out of it, many specialty retailers did not and they were hesitant to expand. In 1994, Beachwood started their expansion and it was probably too late for TC to do anything drastic. Add in the addition of SouthPark and you had quite a bit of new retail coming to NEO all at the same time. I'm not sure the market could've handled more since the Galleria was starting to slip by then and TC had lost some key tenants.

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Since the Retail News thread is locked right now - I'm posting this info here. Cleveland is - as several posters, including me, have noted - the most under-served (upscale) retail market in the country. No question. It defies logic that an area of our size is lacking so many retailers and restaurants that are in metros big and small... I don't get it...

 

So, for several years, I've been trying to track (merely as a hobby) how behind the curve NEO is in having not pie-in-the-sky retailers that only hit the biggest cities (Cartier, Bulgari, Prada) - but merely trendy or upscale retailers many of the top 40 metros - and nearly all of the top 20-25 metros - have (such as Tiffany, Container Store IKEA, Puma, etc...).  Why metros half our size have 5-10-15 key retailers we don't just doesn't make sense.  Why 24 of the top 26 metros have an IKEA or 31 of the top 32 metros have a Tiffany - but not NEO - doesn't make sense...

 

The sad truth is shown on the attached PDF... (all retailers/restaurants that are not currently present in NEO)

 

Enjoy...

 

 

 

 

This is good stuff!  Depressing but good.  Maybe these latest rounds of development will cure some of this.

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Since the Retail News thread is locked right now - I'm posting this info here. Cleveland is - as several posters, including me, have noted - the most under-served (upscale) retail market in the country. No question. It defies logic that an area of our size is lacking so many retailers and restaurants that are in metros big and small... I don't get it...

 

So, for several years, I've been trying to track (merely as a hobby) how behind the curve NEO is in having not pie-in-the-sky retailers that only hit the biggest cities (Cartier, Bulgari, Prada) - but merely trendy or upscale retailers many of the top 40 metros - and nearly all of the top 20-25 metros - have (such as Tiffany, Container Store IKEA, Puma, etc...).  Why metros half our size have 5-10-15 key retailers we don't just doesn't make sense.  Why 24 of the top 26 metros have an IKEA or 31 of the top 32 metros have a Tiffany - but not NEO - doesn't make sense...

 

The sad truth is shown on the attached PDF... (all retailers/restaurants that are not currently present in NEO)

 

Enjoy...

 

 

 

 

I think I love you!  The true test is can you shop at any of those stores, on a regular basis, without blinking?

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MyTwoSense - I send the virtual love right back - you know your stuff!

 

I think the fact that I cared enough about these missing retailers/restaurants to compile the list in the first place might answer your question... Bring 'em on!  There's a secondary list in my head, also, of the next tier of retailers/restaurants (think Roy's, etc...) that aren't quite "everywhere" enough to be clearly dissing NEO - but when they build a few more locations without hitting NEO, they will be...

 

I've done what I could to share the list with Stark and the other key local players and have tried to get it print media folks hand to get them to delve further into the "why won't these retailers come to NEO" question.  It's hard to look at this list and not see we're almost intentionally being overlooked here - with public enemy #1 and #2 being Tiffany (where I'm a very good customer, despite the distance) and IKEA...

 

(FYI - Free People and Allen Edmonds were recently on this list - and formerly, Orvis - but those retailers have all ended up at Eton... so I was able to cross a few off, thankfully...)

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I think I love you!

 

Homo you don't! Lez be on our way! hug.gif


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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MyTwoSense - I send the virtual love right back - you know your stuff!

 

I think the fact that I cared enough about these missing retailers/restaurants to compile the list in the first place might answer your question... Bring 'em on!  There's a secondary list in my head, also, of the next tier of retailers/restaurants (think Roy's, etc...) that aren't quite "everywhere" enough to be clearly dissing NEO - but when they build a few more locations without hitting NEO, they will be...

 

I've done what I could to share the list with Stark and the other key local players and have tried to get it print media folks hand to get them to delve further into the "why won't these retailers come to NEO" question.  It's hard to look at this list and not see we're almost intentionally being overlooked here - with public enemy #1 and #2 being Tiffany (where I'm a very good customer, despite the distance) and IKEA...

 

(FYI - Free People and Allen Edmonds were recently on this list - and formerly, Orvis - but those retailers have all ended up at Eton... so I was able to cross a few off, thankfully...)

To be honest, you haven't even scratched the surface of the names of stores that I want!

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The stores I/you want and the ones NEO should already have are two different things.  My list just notes what we need to even partially catch up with a city anywhere near our size. The dream list comes after.

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dwirthwein, I don't seem to see the PDF attachment you mentioned above about retailers not in NEO.  Am I missing something? Thanks.  Edit:  I might be having computer problems that won't allow me to see it

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Since the Retail News thread is locked right now - I'm posting this info here. Cleveland is - as several posters, including me, have noted - the most under-served (upscale) retail market in the country. No question. It defies logic that an area of our size is lacking so many retailers and restaurants that are in metros big and small... I don't get it...

 

So, for several years, I've been trying to track (merely as a hobby) how behind the curve NEO is in having not pie-in-the-sky retailers that only hit the biggest cities (Cartier, Bulgari, Prada) - but merely trendy or upscale retailers many of the top 40 metros - and nearly all of the top 20-25 metros - have (such as Tiffany, Container Store IKEA, Puma, etc...).  Why metros half our size have 5-10-15 key retailers we don't just doesn't make sense.  Why 24 of the top 26 metros have an IKEA or 31 of the top 32 metros have a Tiffany - but not NEO - doesn't make sense...

 

The sad truth is shown on the attached PDF... (all retailers/restaurants that are not currently present in NEO)

 

Enjoy...

 

 

 

 

Thanks, but that is sort of depressing.

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Thanks for putting that together, dwirth.  As someone who hasn't shopped much in the CLE area, I was actually pretty surprised by a lot of those names.  Here's hoping some of them show up at Tower City, or elsewhere in the region.

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Well, at least TC has somehow held onto Brooks Bros... and if BB isn't high-end enough for MyTwoSense, I don't think we'll ever reach his economic stratosphere.

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The things that shocks me most about the retail/restaurant list isn't what bigger metros than #16 NEO have - but that the average metro area ranking 17th to 40th has, on average, 14 of these stores/restaurants - even though the average population of that 17th to 40th list is about 1.1MM fewer than NEO... (the average top 20 metro, other than NEO, has 25 or so of these... the 5 closest in size have 20 of these, on average...)

 

It's also interesting to remind all where NEO ranks vs. the rest of the largest metros... This is still a significantly large area - despite the doom-and-gloom spin. It would take some of the fairly fast growing metros 100 years to get close to our population... Look who ranks below - if not WELL below (I'm talking to you "largest city in Ohio" CMH - and you even needed hour-south Chillicothe to magically appear in your metro #s to help boost your population to 2MM. Oh, but wait, Columbus does have 14 of these key retailers that NEO doesn't... Oh well...)

 

 

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Folks, leave Columbus, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, etc out of this thread for comparison sake about CLEVELAND Retail News, thanks.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Well, at least TC has somehow held onto Brooks Bros... and if BB isn't high-end enough for MyTwoSense, I don't think we'll ever reach his economic stratosphere.

 

Honestly, Brooks Brother isn't "high end".  It's middle of the road.  They have some high end product lines, but compared to the brands I wear, it's middle of the road.

 

I'm not your average consumer, I'm a high volume shopaholic.  Normally I don't go into boutiques, they send the clothes to me, but this past weekend, my nephew wanted to go shopping since regaining his "freedom".  On Sunday, we along with Mr. Fussy Pants, went to so SoHo.  What I spent in 5 hours, could probably feed most families for a year or two.  So my idea of what "expensive" is, is completely different for the next person.  At the same time, I'll use my aunt as an example, she can buy 1k pair of Louboutin's and not bat an eyelash.  When she goes in to Saks, they roll out the Red Carpet, management comes out to speak to her.  I can't ball with her.

 

There is

  • Cost conscientious (Old Navy, Uniqlo)
  • Budget (JPenney, Kohls, H&M, the GAP, Forever 21)
  • Mid Range (Macy's/Lord & Taylor), Coach, Kenneth Cole, Diesel, Banana Republic)
  • High-End (Some Bloomingdales/Nordstrom, DKNY, Emporio Armani)
  • Luxury (Harvey Nichols, Bergdorf, Prada, Chanel, Hermes)

Thats not a definite, as some retail store move up or down based on location.

 

I love to shop and I would prefer to spend my $$$$ in Cleveland instead of other cities.  I hope Downtown grows and retailers for every price point invest in our region.

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^FWIW, I think most shoppers would split your mid-range into at least two sub-categories.  Just seems weird to see Coach and, presumably, Brooks Brothers in the same group as Lord & Taylor.

 

I have no idea if national chains are going to resdicover downtown anytime soon, especially outside of Tower City.  I'm more optimistic, though, that we could see a small cluster of indy, owner-driven boutiques like Dredgers Union on downtown streets.  A few years ago it seemed like one almost emerged in the WHD, if I'm remembering right.  Isn't there a smallish cluster like that on Coventry?  Something like that might be enough to attract an intrepid national chain or two also.

 

By far the coolest Cleveland retail idea I've seen in a long while was someone in this thread (or the Tower City thread) suggesting an LL Bean in the back of Tower City with actual river frontage for kayak sales.  That would be amazing and, I'd guess, a bit of a regional draw for the novelty alone.

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^FWIW, I think most shoppers would split your mid-range into at least two sub-categories.  Just seems weird to see Coach and, presumably, Brooks Brothers in the same group as Lord & Taylor.

 

I have no idea if national chains are going to resdicover downtown anytime soon, especially outside of Tower City.  I'm more optimistic, though, that we could see a small cluster of indy, owner-driven boutiques like Dredgers Union on downtown streets.  A few years ago it seemed like one almost emerged in the WHD, if I'm remembering right.  Isn't there a smallish cluster like that on Coventry?  Something like that might be enough to attract an intrepid national chain or two also.

 

By far the coolest Cleveland retail idea I've seen in a long while was someone in this thread (or the Tower City thread) suggesting an LL Bean in the back of Tower City with actual river frontage for kayak sales.  That would be amazing and, I'd guess, a bit of a regional draw for the novelty alone.

 

That's why I noted, things could change based on region and location.  For instance Macy's on 34 would be in High, considering it deep product line & actual retail space, location, and adjacent retailers.  The Macy's at Queens Plaza, is middle of the road at best.

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By far the coolest Cleveland retail idea I've seen in a long while was someone in this thread (or the Tower City thread) suggesting an LL Bean in the back of Tower City with actual river frontage for kayak sales.  That would be amazing and, I'd guess, a bit of a regional draw for the novelty alone.

 

Thank you. Thank you very much.

:-)

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MTS. Can we please go shopping together?  Actually, can I go shopping with your aunt? :)

 

I would love all of these things to be downtown, but we don't even have a single department store! I think that is crucial. However we can't go from nothing, to Bloomingdale's. I've always wondered if there was ever any effort to get something like a flagship Macy's downtown? With restaurants etc. that sort of thing would be a draw BUT it would have to be large and unique to separate it from its suburban counterparts.

 

 

 

 

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MTS. Can we please go shopping together?  Actually, can I go shopping with your aunt? :)

 

I would love all of these things to be downtown, but we don't even have a single department store! I think that is crucial. However we can't go from nothing, to Bloomingdale's. I've always wondered if there was ever any effort to get something like a flagship Macy's downtown? With restaurants etc. that sort of thing would be a draw BUT it would have to be large and unique to separate it from its suburban counterparts.

 

 

 

 

Actually you want to go shopping with my Cousin (my aunt's youngest daughter)!  That girl does not know what a price tag is!

 

Yes lawd.  I'm hopping the current downtown economic development will help spur retail development.  Again, what is happening in Cleveland now, happened in Philly and DC in 2000/2001/2002 .

 

What has happened on Walnut and Chestnut in Philly could easily happen on Euclid, Prospect and Tower City.

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I'd argue that what's going on in other similiar Midwest cities has EVERYTHING to do with Cleveland retail, as it relates to this board... It defines what's in play for us in future developments - or should, at least... If what's going on in other cities isn't revelant on UO, then kiss all the "Miegs Field" and "Navy Pier" references goodbye on the Lakefront Developmentt thread...

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I'd argue that what's going on in other similiar Midwest cities has EVERYTHING to do with Cleveland retail, as it relates to this board... It defines what's in play for us in future developments - or should, at least... If what's going on in other cities isn't revelant on UO, then kiss all the "Miegs Field" and "Navy Pier" references goodbye on the Lakefront Developmentt thread...

 

Then you will suffer MayDay's wrath!  You've been warned.  LOL

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I'd argue that what's going on in other similiar Midwest cities has EVERYTHING to do with Cleveland retail, as it relates to this board... It defines what's in play for us in future developments - or should, at least... If what's going on in other cities isn't revelant on UO, then kiss all the "Miegs Field" and "Navy Pier" references goodbye on the Lakefront Developmentt thread...

 

That's a slippery slope.  It's logical to compare a city's retail scene with a similar city.  But we all know that leads to:

 

Look who ranks below - if not WELL below (I'm talking to you "largest city in Ohio" CMH - and you even needed hour-south Chillicothe to magically appear in your metro #s to help boost your population to 2MM.

 

...which has nothing to do with retail in Cleveland.  If forumers can keep it strictly "Easton has this and therefore Crocker Park should have it as well due to similar sized cities, etc" then that would be fine.

 

But this is UrbanOhio.  That's never the case.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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