Cleveland: Retail News

[Mov2Ohio]

Basically. I said all along it wouldn't be this soon that we would see changes if any at TC because of the casino. If Phase 2 of the casino as well as the current casino do bring a sustained level of people to TC that's great, but a larger downtown population with discretionary income is what will really be a game changer for TC.

 

From what they implied the outlet idea has more legs on it than just some proposal.

 

Interesting thing is the Downtown Cleveland Alliance is trying to get outlets to Euclid Avenue.

[tedders55]

In regard to TC, it looks like City Leather which had been next to Victoria Secrets has moved to the old K-line space.  Not the greatest of openings, but it does put an open shop in a pretty large space which is a plus.  I would also think that their old space would be more attractive to a national brand than the new corner they are occupying, but that is just me speculating.

 

These new apartments that are supposed to be coming online can't get here soon enough.

[327]

^So basically all our months of discussion in various threads relating to how the casino was going to spark this great renaissance of retail downtown, primarily in Tower City, was just us playing SimCity.  Of course any would have thought it was a natural out growth but so far nothing concrete or even planned for the near or even distance future.  We do have some nice new parking however.

 

Not clear what SimCity has to do with anything.  As for downtown population, cities with far less of that are able to do much more.  As for the casino serving as an anchor, it's still worth consideration, but there may not be that much overlap between casino traffic and shopping traffic.  Until TC can offer a competitive shopping experience, it probably can't expect to compete as a shopping center.

[Mov2Ohio]

^Not saying you're wrong, but interested in specifically what cities you're thinking about. Other things to consider are subsidies, daytime population etc.

[327]

There are entire threads for that.  Point is, Cleveland leads the league in downtown population.  They're calling a key strength a deficiency and it's ludicrous.  The rent is too damn high. 

[Confiteordeo]

If FCE wants to see a larger residential population, maybe they should put their money where their mouth is and build a couple residential towers... Like maybe a City of Towers like this-

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,13775.msg208808.html#msg208808

 

I also don't know that DCA is still pursuing the outlet store plan for Lower Euclid, just from conversations that I've had with certain people in that organization.  Maybe I should ask explicitly

[Hts121]

There are entire threads for that.  Point is, Cleveland leads the league in downtown population.  They're calling a key strength a deficiency and it's ludicrous.  The rent is too damn high. 

 

Its 'lead' is greatly (if not totally) diminished when you subtract the jail population and that portion of the population that does not have discretionary income.  Then, you have to consider the lack of residential population in the immediate vicinity of downtown..... even Toledo kicks our butt in that category.

[327]

Is it your thesis that Cleveland's downtown population is low, vs comparable cities?  Most believe otherwise and consider it a major success story.  And most major cities have jails downtown.  And I've been to Toledo, recently.  I guess I'm just not following you.   

[Hts121]

I don't have a thesis and do consider it a success story.  I was simply pointing out that our population numbers are inflated by the jail and some forms of public assitance housing.  I was assuming that you were referring to the other C's when you said 'the league'..... maybe you should clarify what comparable cities you are referring to.  I don't think the population is 'low', but I do feel it is overstated quite often

 

With regard to Toledo, see the reply 203 on this page - http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,25512.180.html

[327]

Re post 203, I would direct you to 209. 

 

The league I referred to is larger than Ohio and yes somewhat nebulous.  But I'm trying to ascertain how disputable it is that Cleveland has a relatively high downtown population, since FCE apparently finds it so inadequate.  Expanding our consideration beyond downtown adds a lot of medium-to-affluent people with a direct rail link to the shopping center in question, which is a somewhat unique advantage for TC and for downtown Cleveland.  Bearing all this in mind, I feel compelled to reiterate that the rent's too damn high.

[ClevelandOhio]

I don't have a thesis and do consider it a success story.  I was simply pointing out that our population numbers are inflated by the jail and some forms of public assitance housing.  I was assuming that you were referring to the other C's when you said 'the league'..... maybe you should clarify what comparable cities you are referring to.  I don't think the population is 'low', but I do feel it is overstated quite often

 

With regard to Toledo, see the reply 203 on this page - http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,25512.180.html

 

I agree. And somewhere on here I have broken these numbers down to show the real situation downtown. Some people say 12,000, when in reality its more like 7,000.

[stpats44113]

Cleveland's downtown population is never going to expand exponentially and be a true downtown until they do something to attract families. Their effort on that end is laughable. Name me one great city that relies strictly on empty nestors and 20/30 somethings to fill their urban core.

[Mov2Ohio]

Cleveland's downtown population is never going to expand exponentially and be a true downtown until they do something to attract families. Their effort on that end is laughable. Name me one great city that relies strictly on empty nestors and 20/30 somethings to fill their urban core.

 

Things are in the works.... Deb Janik of the Greater Cleveland Partnership has outlined plans to turn the malls, Public Square and even East 3rd street into a true urban park. She discussed the rooms along the malls that will host things like yoga or ice cream stands, lighting schemes throughout downtown color coded to guide people to the different districts. There's already the science center and Aquarium. All that is needed is a good school.

 

I think a downtown that relies solely on families is laughable as well. Downtown should be an attractive choice for everybody with certain districts more geared towards different crowds or age groups. That being said downtown needs to attract more of everybody.

[327]

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=183138

 

According to this list, Cleveland's downtown population ranks 12th in the US.  Selected highlights:

 

2. Chicago- 42,563

11. Milwaukee- 8915

12. Cleveland- 8433

16. Houston- 6678

17. Atlanta- 6418

24. Pittsburgh- 5422

31. Columbus- 4374

32. Cincinnati- 4303

36. Indy- 3481

37. St. Louis- 3392

40. Boise- 3093

42. Toledo- 2735

56. Tampa- 709

 

So I grant that we've seen some overstated estimates, but on a comparative basis we're still doing rather well.  Thus I do not believe lack of downtown population is a legitimate excuse for the vacancies.  As with anything, of course there could be more.  Much more.  And there will be.  But we should not allow our strengths to be counted as weaknesses.  And besides, there appears to be minimal correlation between downtown retail and downtown population.  Compare this list to the one in UO's department store thread.

 

FCE reminds me of the Dolans, always trying to big-time us despite the fact that everyone can see successful operations taking place in similarly sized markets.

 

[eyehrtfood]

327: Great info - but I'm sure its flawed, 'cause it's too perfect, otherwise.

 

It's obvious the "residents" argument means nothing. A shoping center like Beachwood Place or Crocker Park considers its trade area to be 600-700K+ within, say, 20-30 minutes. And we're supposed to beleive that Tower City puts its tipping point at, say, 10,000 to 20,000, etc... downtown residents? Baloney.

[Mov2Ohio]

Well you can call it BS all you want, but FC says downtown needs more people to support better retail and so do market analyst at DDR; another extremely large Cleveland based shopping center manager.

 

On top of that if retailers thought they could make money they'd be there already. When stores look at a new location they can plug the demographic info of an area into software and find out if the spot is viable in 5 seconds. The income for an area 2 to 3 miles from TC is probably way lower than a similar sized radius going from Beachwood, or Great Northern or Southpark, something that also factors into the quality of stores. Remember, TC isn't empty it's just lacking the stores that are in Beachwood Mall.

[327]

FCE lists 9 core markets on their website and Cleveland is not among them, even though they developed (and are based in) Cleveland's core marketplace.  DDR feels that downtown is not even a good HQ site if Beachwood is available.  Frankly I don't think theirs are the opinions we should be running with.

[Mov2Ohio]

FCE lists 9 core markets on their website and Cleveland is not among them, even though they developed (and are based in) Cleveland's core marketplace.  DDR feels that downtown is not even a good HQ site if Beachwood is available.  Frankly I don't think theirs are the opinions we should be running with.

 

 

So you'd ignore the people who breakdown and analyze markets to decide where to build, acquire or sell malls everyday for a profit. That makes a lot of sense. Not.

 

If the Gap, J Crew, Lacoste, Tiffany's or whomever thought it made good business sense to be downtown Cleveland today they do not need Forest City Enterprises or their mall to do it. They could've leased any of the vacant retail space that is available. They continue to choose not to.

 

If Downtown is ripe for retail show me the line of retailers waiting to sign up.

 

 

In some years with a larger and wealthier residential base Downtown will be more attractive, but the absence of these coveted stores paints a different picture about today.

 

[mrnyc]

^ thats a good thing. somebody has got to build more residential downtown. the pressure is mounting.

 

[Hts121]

Re post 203, I would direct you to 209. 

 

I am the first one to point out the realities of post 209.  But, for the purposes of THIS discussion, that is exactly what they are.... realities.  I don't care if downtown's population doubles to 15,000.... it would not support the level and type of retail you desire.  The neighborhoods AROUND downtown need to fill up, particularly the residential desert going out to E 55th.  That is what separates a lot of other cities from Cleveland.  And, let's not ignore the fact that retail in general is struggling due to several factors, including but not limited to the economy, big-box stores and online shopping. 

[MyTwoSense]

Re post 203, I would direct you to 209. 

 

I am the first one to point out the realities of post 209.  But, for the purposes of THIS discussion, that is exactly what they are.... realities.  I don't care if downtown's population doubles to 15,000.... it would not support the level and type of retail you desire.  The neighborhoods AROUND downtown need to fill up, particularly the residential desert going out to E 55th.  That is what separates a lot of other cities from Cleveland.  And, let's not ignore the fact that retail in general is struggling due to several factors, including but not limited to the economy, big-box stores and online shopping. 

 

As someone who is a target customer for high end shopping and wants a Prada in Cleveland more than anyone else, I couldn't agree more!

[327]

What formula are you guys using?  Square footage of the store = its market radius?  Can you supply any other instance where any shopping center's market was estimated with rules like this?  Doesn't your system require a Beachwood Place every 5 miles or so in affluent areas?  Heaven forbid someone would shop somewhere they can't see from their front door.

 

The population of downtown, and its immediate vicinity, are simply not at issue here.  Nor is the population of Beachwood--by itself-- all that important to Beachwood Place.  The market for any major retail operation covers a much larger area.  People aren't expected to ride there on a Big Wheel.  Downtown's market includes Lakewood and Shaker by any rational estimate, i.e. the sort of estimate used for any shopping center not located in downtown Cleveland.

[MyTwoSense]

What formula are you guys using?  Square footage of the store = its market radius?  Can you supply any other instance where any shopping center's market was estimated with rules like this?  Doesn't your system require a Beachwood Place every 5 miles or so in affluent areas?  Heaven forbid someone would shop somewhere they can't see from their front door.

 

The population of downtown, and its immediate vicinity, are simply not at issue here.  Nor is the population of Beachwood--by itself-- all that important to Beachwood Place.  The market for any major retail operation covers a much larger area.  People aren't expected to ride there on a Big Wheel.  Downtown's market includes Lakewood and Shaker by any rational estimate, i.e. the sort of estimate used for any shopping center not located in downtown Cleveland.

 

How many times have we brought this up and given information? The answer to your question can be found in this very thread.  Think about how many times this and similar threads have been locked because you do not agree with the methodology and current economic climate.

 

I strongly suggest we stop this conversation NOW, before this thread is locked again.

[Mov2Ohio]

True the population of Just Beechwood isn't solely responsible for keeping Beachwood Place afloat, but with retail the reality is people tend to shop near where they live. Beachwood Place is closer to Shaker than downtown on top of having two anchors that can't be found for hundreds of miles.

 

To keep more upscale retailers downtown needs 25,000 residents who are at least middle/upper middle income earners.

 

 

[327]

MTS first of all, we are discussing Cleveland Retail News, in particular an item on the previous page.  This is not a construction thread.

 

Secondly, you keep referring to all the times your theory has been backed up, but in every case it's just the same repeated assertions.  You use terms like "methodology" even though none has been presented.  Then you tell everyone who disagrees with you to shut up.

[Htsguy]

^Wow...that reminds me of another poster on the board. :evil:

[Hts121]

I'm using the common sense methology

[327]

Htsguy, you're more than welcome to go ahead and explain that.  I backed myself up with data on this very page, and I've never told anyone here to hush because I think they're wrong.  I do frequently ask people to explain, as I've done with you just now, even though your post adds nothing but personal animosity to this discussion.  The devil face does soften it a bit, I guess.  Nice work.

 

Hts121, I think that's what we're all doing, for the most part.  But you get a gold star too.  I'm not one to play favorites.

[Rustbelter]

I am the first one to point out the realities of post 209.  But, for the purposes of THIS discussion, that is exactly what they are.... realities.  I don't care if downtown's population doubles to 15,000.... it would not support the level and type of retail you desire.  The neighborhoods AROUND downtown need to fill up, particularly the residential desert going out to E 55th.  That is what separates a lot of other cities from Cleveland.  And, let's not ignore the fact that retail in general is struggling due to several factors, including but not limited to the economy, big-box stores and online shopping. 

 

I think this is as big of an issue as it pertains to downtown retail as the actual downtown population, and is an obvious problem for Cleveland. In fact I might say that this is Cleveland's biggest problem. The cities that are relatively similar to Cleveland's metro size, which do have the type of retail we would like to see in Cleveland, not only have a more robust downtown population but also have healthy neighborhoods that are directly adjacent to downtown.

 

Aside from downtown residential infill, Cleveland is in serious need of more infill in the Flats and in the area between E. 30th and E 55th. The near west side neighborhoods must continue to develop more as well. Because of this I think Cleveland needs to have a larger downtown population than other similar places to compensate for the "donut hole" type areas that exist.

[Mov2Ohio]

According to Fox 8 Nordstrom Rack might open another location in the Cleveland area at the Promenade Crocker Park.

 

On a side not, in MY opinion, as mentioned before in this thread I think a discount store like Nordstrom Rack, TJ Maxx or Marshall's could do good downtown. It would also cater to a diverse bunch of people.

[eyehrtfood]

While Nordstrom Rack is a "discounted" store, I wouldn't characterize it as a "discount" store like TJ Maxx or Marshalls are, as a whole. A "discount" here can mean that the pair of shoes you have your eye on is now $199, not $399. At TJ Maxx, shoes might be $19.99 instead of $39.99.

 

Anyway, the former Borders at the Promenade has been the rumored Rack location for some time. If opening next fall, it will mean Cleveland gets Rack #2 about the time that Columbus gets their Rack #1, at the new Easton Market.

[Mov2Ohio]

That's true, Nordstrom rack is higher in price. Something more along the lines of Tj maxx I think would fit, maybe where Barroom/Cadillac Ranch was.

[ClevelandOhio]

I went Nordstrom Rack once with my girlfriend. I didnt think the deals were that great. I literally saw a tag that said "a savings of $0.00, thats 0% off!" And another one that was $0.30 off. Most seemed to be in the $3 to $5 range.

[327]

That's true, Nordstrom rack is higher in price. Something more along the lines of Tj maxx I think would fit, maybe where Barroom/Cadillac Ranch was.

 

This is a great idea.

[skorasaurus]

That's true, Nordstrom rack is higher in price. Something more along the lines of Tj maxx I think would fit, maybe where Barroom/Cadillac Ranch was.

 

This is a great idea.

 

On face value, good idea but there's already a marshall's (owned by TJmaxx) about 2 miles away at Steelyard. Secondly, I can confirm that DCA had approached them but TJ wasn't interested.

[327]

At what price were they not interested?

[Etheostoma Caeruleum]

The May Company Building, a most prominent and attractive space on the square, sits looking filthily and with no significant retail tenant for which the building was designed. ( Just the Tri-C thing) This space should be a priority, and a great candidate for such a store, but it still sits mostly void and getting dirtier looking.  I was disgusted to see that in such a building, with such a history...that a glorified bar was the best that anyone could do to utilize such a space. With more people living downtown and re-discovering it, re-learning how to actually use a downtown, and what one actually is during the decentralizing auto-oriented era, this is a great time.

 

One more food establishment and this part of downtown is nothing more than an outdoor giant food court and a scene of people standing around smoking and pitching their butts all over the nice EC project streetscape...a great exhibition and representation of a vibrant healthy populace Cleveland, for sure. Euclid needs to be interspersed with establishments that create a functional neighborhood in a downtown appealing to stakeholders... 

 

If you live downtown, or close, you simply should not have to get in a car to go to Westlake or Beachwood for such other places found at malls. This is insane. If it continues to become all food, it will cater to mostly non-residents and sports fans. Not a diverse and stable economic example, imo, especially if we continue to rely on the success of Cleveland sports to keep it all going. That is a recipe for disaster and economic type-cast.

 

By the way, speaking of retail..there is a lot of existing retail downtown when you look hard enough...and for guys out there who might be tired of the ripped jeans, t-shirts, sneakers, and baseball cap look.. I suggest M. Lang...  prices are comparable to a Dillards and the quality is impeccable. The service is a real merchant to customer experience by someone who knows their craft. Have a drink there too...

 

And if anyone ever saw this multi-part PBS series, it would be great to get even a tiny fraction of this diversity back downtown and on Euclid. Eventually, maybe people will unlearn the mall habit and re-learn what a downtown is for...  or what could be.. (maybe never to this degree again, but maybe a shift back inwards to growing from within. 

 

[dwirthwein]

Here's the Rack/Crocker Park announcement...

 

http://www.istockanalyst.com/business/news/6081869/nordstrom-rack-to-open-second-cleveland-store

 

And I'm a 2-3x month Nordstrom Rack shopper - and actually find their deals, especially once they hit clearance, to be very good generally 25-50%+ off on most items whether Lacoste, Cole Haan, North Face or others. I pretty much don't buy shoes anywhere else.

[KJP]

Guess this means MyTwoSense is going to have to renew his passport to visit the west side (outside of the duty-free zone along the Red Line and at Hopkins Airport, of course). Bob Stark has wanted a Nordstrom's at Crocker Park since before he got the OK to start construction. Guess this is the next-best thing.....

 

Nordstrom Rack moving into shuttered Westlake Borders

3:00 pm, October 9, 2012

 

The vacant Borders Books space at the Promenade in Crocker Park is getting a new tenant next year.

 

Seattle-based Nordstrom Inc. (NYSE: JWN) said today that it plans to open a Nordstrom Rack store in the former Borders space in Westlake. The 34,000-square-foot store is scheduled to open fall 2013.

 

Nordstrom Rack is the off-price retail division of Nordstrom Inc. It carries what the company calls “on-trend merchandise” from Nordstrom stores and Nordstrom.com at 50% to 60% off original Nordstrom prices.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20121009/FREE/121009822#

[dwirthwein]

West side Rack will be a must-go for east side Rack fans merely because assortment varies by store - and always good to see what the other has in stock. Certainly I've seen occasions where a certain chain store on one side of town has lots of stock on a great deal/unique item, when the same store on other side of town has sold out, etc...  and/or one store gets different product mix than the other.

 

Rack Westlake = 34,000 sq ft.  Rack Lyndhurst = listed as 42,242 sq ft on Legacy leasing map

[Mov2Ohio]

A while ago there was an article from a Nordstrom exec who stated “There are only five viable downtowns for us in the country,” he told me, “New York, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco and Seattle [which is Nordstrom’s headquarters city]. Every other city, active and bustling as it may seem, has the wrong kind of activity at the wrong time.”

 

I thought it might be interesting to look at the populations of the downtowns in the cities mentioned in the quote to get an idea about the number of people living in these downtowns that are deemed viable for retail. From the list though the population for downtown Boston and San Francisco are not available to me (If someone can find them I will put them in).

 

New York Midtown: 46,378

Chicago: 42,563

New York Downtown: 22,732

Seattle: 20,385

Cleveland: 8,433

 

I bolded Seattle because it is lowest and is closest to the 25,000 number for downtown population we hear all the time and Seattle is not on the level of Midtown NYC or Michigan Ave in Chicago.

 

I got the population list here: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=183138

 

and the Nordstrom quote here: http://insiderlouisville.com/news/2011/07/25/as-norstrom-closes-in-indy-dont-hold-your-breathe-for-big-louisville-retail-coupe/

 

Another idea I wanted to hear opinions about was University Circle as the region's retail mecca. If you look at Atlanta (I know) their downtown is void of the types of shops you'd find at Beachwood or Crocker Park, but a few miles away (similar to UC) are two luxury malls that have basically any store you can think of. The area is surrounded by condos, mansions, offices and hotels.

 

That said what do you guys think about UC becoming something similar with retail lining the streets in multi-use buildings and this area supplanting Beachwood as the region's premier retail destination instead of downtown?

[mrclifton88]

I guarantee an H&M in the former dredgers union space would be a success. You'd hit every group: residents, workers, visitors, sports attendees, concert goers etc.  I think it's a start but probably will never happen. That place is like the universal draw right now no matter your price point. Often no matter how packed E 4th was, DU was totally empty. I know we discussed that already so no need to rehash. Just wish I could find out if maron has courted a popular national brand like H&M. OR if theyd ever think of downtown.

[MyTwoSense]

A while ago there was an article from a Nordstrom exec who stated “There are only five viable downtowns for us in the country,” he told me, “New York, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco and Seattle [which is Nordstrom’s headquarters city]. Every other city, active and bustling as it may seem, has the wrong kind of activity at the wrong time.”

 

I thought it might be interesting to look at the populations of the downtowns in the cities mentioned in the quote to get an idea about the number of people living in these downtowns that are deemed viable for retail. From the list though the population for downtown Boston and San Francisco are not available to me (If someone can find them I will put them in).

 

New York Midtown: 46,378

Chicago: 42,563

New York Downtown: 22,732

Seattle: 20,385

Cleveland: 8,433

 

I bolded Seattle because it is lowest and is closest to the 25,000 number for downtown population we hear all the time and Seattle is not on the level of Midtown NYC or Michigan Ave in Chicago.

 

I got the population list here: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=183138

 

and the Nordstrom quote here: http://insiderlouisville.com/news/2011/07/25/as-norstrom-closes-in-indy-dont-hold-your-breathe-for-big-louisville-retail-coupe/

 

Another idea I wanted to hear opinions about was University Circle as the region's retail mecca. If you look at Atlanta (I know) their downtown is void of the types of shops you'd find at Beachwood or Crocker Park, but a few miles away (similar to UC) are two luxury malls that have basically any store you can think of. The area is surrounded by condos, mansions, offices and hotels.

 

That said what do you guys think about UC becoming something similar with retail lining the streets in multi-use buildings and this area supplanting Beachwood as the region's premier retail destination instead of downtown?

 

But Atlanta tore down the projects and low income in the buckhead area and built those malls.  They then shipped, er , relocated the residents in that area to south atlanta (along with the residents in Techwood).  I'm not a fan of removing people to build something for "the haves".  Also, it took a long time and 4 renovations/additions for Lenox Mall to be what it is today.

[MyTwoSense]

That's true, Nordstrom rack is higher in price. Something more along the lines of Tj maxx I think would fit, maybe where Barroom/Cadillac Ranch was.

 

This is a great idea.

 

On face value, good idea but there's already a marshall's (owned by TJmaxx) about 2 miles away at Steelyard. Secondly, I can confirm that DCA had approached them but TJ wasn't interested.

 

I guarantee an H&M in the former dredgers union space would be a success. You'd hit every group: residents, workers, visitors, sports attendees, concert goers etc.  I think it's a start but probably will never happen. That place is like the universal draw right now no matter your price point. Often no matter how packed E 4th was, DU was totally empty. I know we discussed that already so no need to rehash. Just wish I could find out if maron has courted a popular national brand like H&M. OR if theyd ever think of downtown.

 

You guys need to remember that H&M, Marshalls/TJ Maxx (also burlington coat, etc.) are not destination stores.  The is probably why they did not want to come downtown.  They need anchor stores to "lead in" shoppers.

 

[Mov2Ohio]

I see what you're saying in regards to TJ and H & M , but Ari Maron mentioned how the CLE clothing company (low priced clothes) is very successful, where as DU, with a higher price point didn't do well.

 

I also get your points about luxury retail in UC. I just thought I would throw it out there since the focus is on luxury retail back downtown or at Beachwood. I'm interested in people's thoughts on having large scale retail brought to UC as opposed to those other areas. At least then the retail would be in the city and closer to several different modes of mass transit.

 

 

[KJP]

That said what do you guys think about UC becoming something similar with retail lining the streets in multi-use buildings and this area supplanting Beachwood as the region's premier retail destination instead of downtown?

 

But Atlanta tore down the projects and low income in the buckhead area and built those malls.  They then shipped, er , relocated the residents in that area to south atlanta (along with the residents in Techwood).  I'm not a fan of removing people to build something for "the haves".  Also, it took a long time and 4 renovations/additions for Lenox Mall to be what it is today.

 

I also think UC would have be surrounded by more/wealthier population. If most of the eds/meds of UC lived in and around UC, then it would have the retail draw. Not now.

 

Interesting quote about there being only five downtowns in the entire country that are viable enough for Nordstrom. Are that many downtowns in the U.S. that bad for retail?

[mrclifton88]

I see H&M slightly differently than TJMaxx/Marshalls.  I think its the right fit for something like E. 4th, but I understand the no "draw" issue for convincing a store to come downtown.  UC is heading in the right direction but if downtown is struggling to attract retail I really dont think UC will somehow become the mecca of upscale shopping... at least not for a while

[Mov2Ohio]

I'm wondering less about what's keeping luxury retail from UC right now, and more about why not promote other growing areas of the city to retailers?

[inlovewithCLE]

@Mov2Ohio, I agree. I'll tell you one neighborhood I wonder about. I've often wondered why there isn't more upscale retail in Edgewater. I would imagine that they have the demographics to support it, with Edgewater itself, Detroit-Shoreway and the city of Lakewood all in close proximity. I don't know the exact numbers, but I would have to imagine that the demographics are there. The strip mall and old church next to it would be a prime candidate for "Legacy Village-lite" type shopping center and there's a large lot on W. 117th that could be developed as a department store of some kind or even a Whole Foods. The lack of upscale retail in the wealthiest neighborhood in the city of Cleveland has always baffled me. I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain to me why there's no upscale retail in Edgewater.

[surfohio]

The lack of upscale retail in the wealthiest neighborhood in the city of Cleveland has always baffled me. I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain to me why there's no upscale retail in Edgewater.

 

Could it be Edgewater's proximity to bad neighborhoods?