Jump to content
CornerCurve

Cleveland: FirstEnergy Stadium renovations

Recommended Posts

I am on the edge of my seat, something bigger than Progressive, not the 3 ford plants going back online, not a new stadium!!  arrggg  i need a drink

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, marty15 said:

I’m trying to contemplate this. Progressive moving downtown would be massive. What could possibly be bigger, outside of some coastal company relocating? Moving Hopkins to Burke?  This is Thunderdome

Amazon? 😉

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, G00pie said:

I am on the edge of my seat, something bigger than Progressive, not the 3 ford plants going back online, not a new stadium!!  arrggg  i need a drink

Once upon a time a good friend was the "Tech Czar" for the city. I thought it would be funny to disguise my voice and leave him a voicemail as the CEO of Boeing, looking to relocate. He will never forgive me.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Geowizical said:

 

 

I'm willing to place a bet on that and not change my answer: Google on the Riverfront in Tower City / CityBlock. Check back in a year (or however long this stays quiet) and see if I'm right...

BTW, weren't there rumors about this at some point?

 

Anyways, we should probably stay on topic here, maybe move this discussion to general thread...

I started that, and my info came from as close to the horses mouth as you can get. Still no reason to think otherwise. 

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is pretty wack that the speculation of all the big projects are now related to a possible new stadium. This is the most important time for urban planners in Cleveland as there seems to be insane amounts of musical chairs going on downtown.  SHW, justice ctr, police hq, potentially 3-4+ residential towers, a new stadium?, some obnoxiously large company coming to town?  

   We better get the rapids fixed up. We better get a levy voted on to complete the wfl because the direction is clearly up. 

  • Like 8
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’ll say this if I haven’t before, Alphabet/Google was/is working directly with Vocon. My source said it was their largest project undertaking in company history. All related to CityBlock. I know this is the wrong thread, but just continuing the euphoric speculation here. I haven’t been allowed to know anymore since that convo.  

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, marty15 said:

I’ll say this if I haven’t before, Alphabet/Google was/is working directly with Vocon. My source said it was their largest project undertaking in company history. All related to CityBlock. I know this is the wrong thread, but just continuing the euphoric speculation here. I haven’t been allowed to know anymore since that convo.  

Largest undertaking in Google history?? 😮

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, marty15 said:

In Vocon history 

Looking at the Vocon website, it seems on face-value that Goodyear HQ is/was their current biggest project...

So something bigger than that? Another HQ?

Edited by Geowizical
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Geowizical said:

Looking at the Vocon website, it seems on face-value that Goodyear HQ is/was their current biggest project...

So something bigger than that? Another HQ?

They recently completed Compass regional HQ in Fisherman’s Wharf. My source was working on that project. Their CEO worked at Google for awhile and sold them some of their most important search engine algo programs. If that’s relevant 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited by marty15

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, marty15 said:

I seriously think SHW’s official decision is holding up a lot of things. 

 

Not really. It's amazing how irrelevant it is to so many other things going on. But things like a stadium-oriented development district are so much better with it.

  • Like 1

"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, simplythis said:

Kjp  - Can you start a new thread and move all of this because we are getting off topic and

it could all get erased.  ( And this is worth keeping )

 

I can't move this conversation. A new thread isn't needed either. It could go in the Random Developments thread.

 

As for the many other questions, I can't answer them. It's still very early on. 

  • Thanks 1

"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to the possible stadium renovation. I know everyone seems to want a retractable Dome, but I don't think that's practical. I also think it's really really expensive , so I would look at options for a fixed roof. I'm using this drawing I put together to illustrate how it could look. Now I know know it's not drawn correctly, and it's missing a bunch of support beams but I think it could work. One of my favorite NFL stadiums is Ford Field and they don't have a retractable Dome and I think it works out well. If we want to do a major event during the summer outside we can use the malls for that like we did for Play Ball Park which worked out great. So just an idea. And by the way this involves chopping off half of the top third deck on the city Side.

 

IMG_20191113_024313_447.JPG

Edited by freethink
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So @KJP, everything heard this far would keep, but update, the existing stadium?

 

Also, re: the other stuff happening on this thread in the last 24 hours, there’s no way I’m going to be effective at work today 🤦‍♂️

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, marty15 said:

I’ll say this if I haven’t before, Alphabet/Google was/is working directly with Vocon. My source said it was their largest project undertaking in company history. All related to CityBlock. I know this is the wrong thread, but just continuing the euphoric speculation here. I haven’t been allowed to know anymore since that convo.  

One thing that became apparent in looking at their website; there are a lot of very interesting HQ and offices in the Cleveland area, done by Vocon and they only have three offices; the big two (LA, NYC) and Cleveland.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Clevecane said:

So @KJP, everything heard this far would keep, but update, the existing stadium?

 

Also, re: the other stuff happening on this thread in the last 24 hours, there’s no way I’m going to be effective at work today 🤦‍♂️

 

I've heard that keeping the stadium but retrofitting it with a roof (retractable and non-retractable) is one option. Another is building a new stadium over the tracks and The Pit, but I don't see that viable unless we're talking about spending $200 million to reroute freight trains off the lakefront. That site would also impinge on the port property, possibly requiring that it move.

  • Like 1

"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I've heard that keeping the stadium but retrofitting it with a roof (retractable and non-retractable) is one option. Another is building a new stadium over the tracks and The Pit, but I don't see that viable unless we're talking about spending $200 million to reroute freight trains off the lakefront. That site would also impinge on the port property, possibly requiring that it move.

😳

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

I've heard that keeping the stadium but retrofitting it with a roof (retractable and non-retractable) is one option. Another is building a new stadium over the tracks and The Pit, but I don't see that viable unless we're talking about spending $200 million to reroute freight trains off the lakefront. That site would also impinge on the port property, possibly requiring that it move.

 

It's been talked about multiple times. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2018/08/29/Facilities/FirstEnergy-Roof.aspx

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@KJP Or anyone else in the know.... Does this new Stadium plan/development include Cumberland & Pace, or would they no longer be apart of it?  Would this be a whole new group? If so, did Pace lose the leasing rights to the land?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, NR said:

@KJP Or anyone else in the know.... Does this new Stadium plan/development include Cumberland & Pace, or would they no longer be apart of it?  Would this be a whole new group? If so, did Pace lose the leasing rights to the land?

 

Stay tuned

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 3

"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A new corporate headquarters in Downtown Cleveland that isn't Sherwin-Williams? Who could this be ... Has Amazon or Google put Cleveland on their collective maps? The suspense is intense!!!!! 😱

 

Also, what's this about Cleveland's iconic cultural anchors going in together on a project downtown? I don't believe our stately and imposing Cleveland Museum of Art can be loaded onto a moving 🚚 truck.

 

Spill more details, puleeeeeeze!!!! 😉

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

A new corporate headquarters in Downtown Cleveland that isn't Sherwin-Williams? Who could this be ... Has Amazon or Google put Cleveland on their collective maps? The suspense is intense!!!!! 😱

 

Also, what's this about Cleveland's iconic cultural anchors going in together on a project downtown? I don't believe our stately and imposing Cleveland Museum of Art can be loaded onto a moving 🚚 truck.

 

Spill more details, puleeeeeeze!!!! 😉

 

In re: cultural centers. No one would be moving... Rather a collaborative addition involving several Cleveland cultural and educational institutions can have a presence / voice. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

A new corporate headquarters in Downtown Cleveland that isn't Sherwin-Williams? Who could this be ... Has Amazon or Google put Cleveland on their collective maps? The suspense is intense!!!!! 😱

 

Also, what's this about Cleveland's iconic cultural anchors going in together on a project downtown? I don't believe our stately and imposing Cleveland Museum of Art can be loaded onto a moving 🚚 truck.

 

Spill more details, puleeeeeeze!!!! 😉

The likelier participants are probably the cultural anchors right next door to the stadium and a potential land bridge/CC expansion yes?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

A new corporate headquarters in Downtown Cleveland that isn't Sherwin-Williams? Who could this be ... Has Amazon or Google put Cleveland on their collective maps? The suspense is intense!!!!! 😱

 

Also, what's this about Cleveland's iconic cultural anchors going in together on a project downtown? I don't believe our stately and imposing Cleveland Museum of Art can be loaded onto a moving 🚚 truck.

 

Spill more details, puleeeeeeze!!!! 😉

 

Outside of Progressive, which Ken said it's not, the only companies that are "Bigger" in Ohio are: Cardinal Health, Kroger, Marathon Petroleum, Procter & Gamble, Nationwide.    So if its outside Ohio there are plenty of options.  However, the only two that we've heard any rumors of, to my knowledge, are Amazon and Google.  Perhaps the CityBlock/Blockland development has inspired Amazon to re-engage in its HQ2 plans, or maybe similar with Google and that's why their putting a Datacenter in central OH. I'm sure they'd both be happy with the opportunity to have a nice location attached to the TechHub with the view of the river/river park.

 

From what @YABO713 said and @CleCaneFan referenced, I'm guessing the "cultural centers" would be more like the Science Center and Rock Hall.

 

I agree, we need more breadcrumbs!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no way a stadium could be squeezed into the pit.  

Also off topic here-ish, i saw that google has a massive project called ‘Operation Nightingale’ that is picking up and analyzing most everyone’s medical data in AI. Perhaps they want to locate that group in Cleveland or maybe many are already here? They said it is currently 150 employees. But it sounds like it could expand rapidly. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, audidave said:

Also off topic here-ish, i saw that google has a massive project called ‘Operation Nightingale’ that is picking up and analyzing most everyone’s medical data in AI. Perhaps they want to locate that group in Cleveland or maybe many are already here? They said it is currently 150 employees. But it sounds like it could expand rapidly. 

 

As nefarious as I think that project is, that was my first thought too!


And they reckon that the last thing she saw in her life was
Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

 

In re: cultural centers. No one would be moving... Rather a collaborative addition involving several Cleveland cultural and educational institutions can have a presence / voice. 

 

Kinda like... an Art Mart? 😉

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, KJP said:

 

I've heard that keeping the stadium but retrofitting it with a roof (retractable and non-retractable) is one option. Another is building a new stadium over the tracks and The Pit, but I don't see that viable unless we're talking about spending $200 million to reroute freight trains off the lakefront. That site would also impinge on the port property, possibly requiring that it move.

I would also think that it would be a security/homeland security nightmare.  Having a stadium full of people and then running trains under it would be a security logistics issue.  Imagine that train with a bomb on board.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It happens non-stop in the home of 9/11, NYC. In addition to being home of the Knicks, Rangers and numerous events, Madison Square Garden sits atop the NYC subway, NJ Transit and Amtrak platforms.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

I would also think that it would be a security/homeland security nightmare.  Having a stadium full of people and then running trains under it would be a security logistics issue.  Imagine that train with a bomb on board.  

 

North Station in Boston (Commuter and Regional Rail) is under TD Garden (home arena for Celtics and Bruins). 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference for Cleveland is that its also a freight line, MSG and TD Garden are above only commuter train tracks and stations. They could build above the tracks along the Lakefront for a new stadium site, or for stadium-oriented development and a convention center connection and expansion, if the freight trains were rerouted (or it would at least make it easier). I don't believe it is a prerequisite for development around the stadium, or for better connections to the city, but if the Haslam's wanted to increase their options in the area they should consider the rail bypass. 

 

Bypass study, by KJP (2003):  https://www.gcbl.org/files/resources/railbypassstudy.pdf

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t get what the point of building a stadium right next to the current stadium.  It doesn’t improve the accessibility.  It does get a bit closer to the East bank, though. It takes away parking. It has the same lakefront winds unless of course it is a dome or retractible dome.  I don’t see how it gets more use than the current stadium since there isn’t room to even add development without taking over significant parts of the port.  Do we really want to add the port into the musical chairs?  Not even including the various rail infrastructure easements or alterations.  Which would also go into the hundreds of millions.  Unless someone just wants to blow a lot of money (billions?) for a minor improvement in product for 8 games a year, the pit doesn’t seem a likely location. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, audidave said:

I don’t get what the point of building a stadium right next to the current stadium.  It doesn’t improve the accessibility.  It does get a bit closer to the East bank, though. It takes away parking. It has the same lakefront winds unless of course it is a dome or retractible dome.  I don’t see how it gets more use than the current stadium since there isn’t room to even add development without taking over significant parts of the port.  Do we really want to add the port into the musical chairs?  Not even including the various rail infrastructure easements or alterations.  Which would also go into the hundreds of millions.  Unless someone just wants to blow a lot of money (billions?) for a minor improvement in product for 8 games a year, the pit doesn’t seem a likely location. 

 

Agreed--it would be easier to cap the entire tracks and put a restaurant/retail village right on top of it, along with new entrances to the stadium at that level.   

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If NYC developers can build Hudson Yards on top of the Hudson River rail yards, why can't developers build above the current lakefront railroad tracks and shoreway in Cleveland?

Edited by Frmr CLEder
  • Like 1
  • Poison 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do the Haslems really have this much cash laying around? I'm not sure of their net worth, but they just spent $150m on the crew and are building a $200m stadium. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

If NYC developers can build Hudson Yards on top of the Hudson River rail yards, why can't developers build above the current lakefront railroad tracks and shoreway in Cleveland?

 

 Because only passenger trains go underneath the Hudson Yards. More than 70 freight trains per day, some carrying large quantities of inhalable toxic materials, travel the Norfolk Southern tracks through downtown Cleveland.  The railroads, who own their rights of way and the air rights above them, would prefer not to have newly built structures covering long stretches of their rights of way. I am very curious as to how Chicago's McCormick Place got Canadian National's approval.

Edited by KJP
  • Thanks 1

"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, jmblec2 said:

Do the Haslems really have this much cash laying around? I'm not sure of their net worth, but they just spent $150m on the crew and are building a $200m stadium. 

As I mentioned up thread, Berkshire Hathaway bought a 38.6% stake in PFJ pretty recently, and that stake will increase to 80% in 2023 - likely freeing up billions, so yes they have the cash. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, KJP said:

 

 Because only passenger trains go underneath the Hudson Yards. More than 70 freight trains per day, some carrying large quantities of inhalable toxic materials, travel the Norfolk Southern tracks through downtown Cleveland.  The railroads, who own their rights of way and the air rights above them, would prefer not to have newly built structures covering long stretches of their rights of way. I am very curious as to how Chicago's McCormick Place got Canadian National's approval.

Eminent domain?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ydard said:

Eminent domain?

 

Good luck with that. Eminent domain doesn't mean taking property. It means acquiring private property for public good when no other reasonable alternative exists, then paying them fair value for their property. You cannot move a railroad out of the way without first providing them with an alternative right of way that is no more impactful to the natural and built environments at their proposed locations vs. their current location.

 

BTW, railroads have their eminent domain capabilities. They are one of the very few private enterprises in the USA who can undertake an eminent domain proceeding without the involvement of public sector sponsor.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm very well familiar with eminent domain.  I was simply suggesting, in response to your curiosity, that -- if Canadian National was not a willing seller -- the convention authority could have used eminent domain to acquire air rights to build McCormick Place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, KJP said:

 

 Because only passenger trains go underneath the Hudson Yards. More than 70 freight trains per day, some carrying large quantities of inhalable toxic materials, travel the Norfolk Southern tracks through downtown Cleveland.  The railroads, who own their rights of way and the air rights above them, would prefer not to have newly built structures covering long stretches of their rights of way. I am very curious as to how Chicago's McCormick Place got Canadian National's approval.


In my experience the railroads aren’t very helpful or accommodating.

 

Once in a meeting when asked to do something they didn’t like, they responded with “we took out the buffalo and the indians; if we need to, we’ll take out you too.”

 

Or something to that effect 🙃

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Their significance continues to diminish with tremendous corporate consolidation over the years and various rail alternatives.  As we all know, that has been one of the great mistakes that has haunted the region since the decline in the steel industry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/13/2019 at 1:37 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

North Station in Boston (Commuter and Regional Rail) is under TD Garden (home arena for Celtics and Bruins). 

 

This is a better example as the orange line and green lines are altered, and a reconstructed station was built.  However, the train waiting area, are HORRIBLE before, during and after any event as the train station and Garden have shared space.  It one of the worst places to see an event.  I know why Boston fans are so damn angry!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cleveland isn't the only city battling the railroads for control of precious land resources. Charlotte and Greensboro, NC have similar desires, but success with the railroads is not an impossibility. It does however require the will, perseverence and careful negotiation.

 

https://www.charlotteagenda.com/186266/220-acre-version-of-new-york-citys-central-park-proposed-for-a-longstanding-north-charlotte-rail-yard/

Edited by Frmr CLEder
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...