Cleveland: Cleveland Browns Stadium

[YABO713]

16 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

It has been suggested in the Lakefront Development thread that since Pace apparently does not have the ability to complete the envisioned lakefront plan on his own and his partner Trammell is basically worthless in the endeavor, that the only way to funnel resources into the project is for the deep pocketed Haslams to get involved.

 

A few months ago I recall an article where it was vaguely discussed that the Haslams were looking for a new site for the Browns (a long term project) with ancillary development or were exploring getting involved in enhancing the lakefront around the current stadium as an alternative.  The article presented all of this as something in its infancy with a lot of study and planning necessary.

 

Maybe, behind the scenes, the city has been trying to get the Haslams involved in the lakefront recognizing Pace's limitations (although I am probably giving the city of Cleveland's planning professionals way too much credit) and that article and the ESPN tidbit are vague smoke signals that something is up.

 

Or maybe not.

 

A good indication might be if Pace requests yet another extensive of his option.  Right now he has to start something by June.

 

Those discussions have been had already, pretty in depth

[StapHanger]

This whole thing is ridiculous, IMHO. Everything Dee Haslam is saying is why the stadium shouldn't be on the lakefront.  Football stadiums are dis-amenities for their immediate surroundings. 

[Mov2Ohio]

43 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

This whole thing is ridiculous, IMHO. Everything Dee Haslam is saying is why the stadium shouldn't be on the lakefront.  Football stadiums are dis-amenities for their immediate surroundings. 

 

The Stadium needs to be enclosed and it needs to be connected to the convention center. Doing so opens up its use for every single day that the Browns aren't using is, which is over  350 days out of the year. 

 

If concerts or other large events and conventions can be drawn to the stadium and convention center it makes the addition of bars and restaurants and some retail easier, since there is a guaranteed crown on many days, just like East 4th and Gateway. There is obviously interest in residential in the area, but as it stands today the area so distant from everything else. 

[YABO713]

5 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

 

The Stadium needs to be enclosed and it needs to be connected to the convention center. Doing so opens up its use for every single day that the Browns aren't using is, which is over  350 days out of the year. 

 

If concerts or other large events and conventions can be drawn to the stadium and convention center it makes the addition of bars and restaurants and some retail easier, since there is a guaranteed crown on many days, just like East 4th and Gateway. There is obviously interest in residential in the area, but as it stands today the area so distant from everything else. 

 

This isn't a bad idea. I think the enclosure is relatively easy to achieve as well, especially with major renovations planned for the upper deck seating to begin with. 

 

However, I do not think we will see an enclosure so long as we are seeing renovations and not a rebuild. 

[KJP]

Resurrect the CornaLid!!

 

[Cleburger]

9 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

This isn't a bad idea. I think the enclosure is relatively easy to achieve as well, especially with major renovations planned for the upper deck seating to begin with. 

 

However, I do not think we will see an enclosure so long as we are seeing renovations and not a rebuild. 

 

IMO enclosing would be a waste of money.   We would never see the return on that, especially given it's distance from the actual convention center.   It might as well be 5 miles to most conventioneers--shuttle busses would be in order. 

 

I can see the outside of the stadium being transformed with additions for mixed use purposes (much like the addition and re-skinning happening at the Q now), depending on how the land develops around it.   But the land use is what it is--it's been a stadium for going on 90 years, surrounded by industrial and port land.   

[jbdad2]

"Distance from Convention Center"???  I totally disagree. 

 

By expanding the HCC over the tracks/freeway toward the Science Center and RRHF the stadium would be within a few hundred feet of FES.  I fully enclosed FES then become usable beyond 15 events a year.  Many of the other convention centers in the US have similar size which is why they're able to attract the bigger conventions.  And most of the bigger conventions book their annual conventions for multiple years at a time, thus ensuring ongoing revenue to the facility and host city.   

[Mov2Ohio]

1 hour ago, jbdad2 said:

"Distance from Convention Center"???  I totally disagree. 

 

By expanding the HCC over the tracks/freeway toward the Science Center and RRHF the stadium would be within a few hundred feet of FES.  I fully enclosed FES then become usable beyond 15 events a year.  Many of the other convention centers in the US have similar size which is why they're able to attract the bigger conventions.  And most of the bigger conventions book their annual conventions for multiple years at a time, thus ensuring ongoing revenue to the facility and host city.   

Exactly. Its literally right across the railroad tracks, about 600 feet... a lot less than 5 miles. Plus when I say connect, I mean a meaningful expansion of the facilty that also serves as a connection to the football stadium. A bridge that also could be enclosed exhibit space, not another walkway to gateway style connection.

[surfohio]

Re: distance. Here’s the latest email from Green Ribbon Coalition:

 

First of all, we are happy to report the City is leaning towards adopting the concept of a Harbor Land Bridge extending Mall C to the Rock Hall and Science Center.

[KJP]

Sounds familiar!

 

http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/02/downtown-lakefront-land-bridge-has.html?m=1

[ML11]

17 hours ago, jbdad2 said:

"Distance from Convention Center"???  I totally disagree. 

 

By expanding the HCC over the tracks/freeway toward the Science Center and RRHF the stadium would be within a few hundred feet of FES.  I fully enclosed FES then become usable beyond 15 events a year.  Many of the other convention centers in the US have similar size which is why they're able to attract the bigger conventions.  And most of the bigger conventions book their annual conventions for multiple years at a time, thus ensuring ongoing revenue to the facility and host city.   

For example, the convention center in New Orleans (a big-time convention / special event host) is 1km long from one end to the other.  I don't think Browns Stadium is an unreasonable distance from the main Convention Center by comparison, assuming a land-bridge can get people back and forth.    

[originaljbw]

And if they extend the convention center out as far as the Amtrak Station, they could add an elevated entrance for suite level people.

[dave2017]

On 3/27/2019 at 7:37 AM, KJP said:

Does anyone have a wider view of this proposal. I would be interested to see how this was to connect/extend the convention center to the stadium

 

 

[marty15]

[Stormtrek]

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

 

Hey Marty do you have any new juicy rumors for us?

[KJP]

Lots of rumors swirling out there....

 

Browns continue to take 'long-term,' 'thoughtful' approach to future of FirstEnergy Stadium

https://www.crainscleveland.com/kevin-kleps-blog/browns-continue-take-long-term-thoughtful-approach-future-firstenergy-stadium

[Frmr CLEder]

On 3/27/2019 at 12:27 AM, surfohio said:

My guess would be that the future incarnation of the stadium will be much more of a multi-use facility. Also if the connectivity goes as hoped and is planned out well, the Lakefront will be best suited to accommodate large crowds. 

Been there, did that. Remember Municipal Stadium which the Indians and Browns shared?

[Frmr CLEder]

On 5/11/2018 at 10:28 PM, Sir2geez said:

I think things like Plug and Play will have a significant impact on the region. Yes, job growth is lacking; however, I think we're finally positioned to see significant job growth. The Plain Dealer article from a couple days confims this. There are hundreds of unfilled jobs in region. The labor pool in the region doesn't match the jobs that are being created. This is a problem that needs to be addressed.

 

In-demand jobs go unfilled because workers lack skills: Team NEO report

 

Plenty of good-paying jobs go unfilled in Northeast Ohio because job seekers lack the credentials to hold them, according to a report released Monday, prepared by Team Northeast Ohio , a regional economic development group.

 

"The big takeaway was that we saw particularly acute misalignment in IT, health care and manufacturing," said Jacob Duritsky Team NEO's vice president of strategy and research, who prepared the report. "In our world (Northeast Ohio's economy), health care is the largest employer, manufacturing is the second and IT is embedded in every thing we do."

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2018/05/in-demand_jobs_go_unfilled_bec.amp

"The labor pool in the region doesn't match the jobs that are being created. This is a problem that needs to be addressed."

 

This quote hits the nail on the head!

 

It's an educational issue.

 

What is being done, from an educational perspective, to prepare Cleveland residents for the jobs of this economy?

[ML11]

There is a lot of revenue sharing in the NFL, so the primary levers teams can use to grow their business are Premium (Suite + Club-level) Sales,  Parking, and Sponsorship.  The gravy is when a stadium can be leveraged into a bigger real estate play with surrounding land.  

 

In the current situation, the Browns lose out on Parking revenue because they don't own the big lots.  They also feel that Premium Sales are limited because the C-Suite doesn't like the parking setup and traffic difficulties on gameday. Finally, stadium sponsorship deals are always worth less $ for older buildings, especially those that don't "debut" with a sponsor name.

 

I think a best case scenario is that the Browns exercise some of their leverage to drive political will for reshaping the lakefront to be more accessible.  In turn I'd expect that to open up opportunities for them to position a renovated (or new) stadium alongside a larger real estate development and better parking access for the Premium folks.  

 

However that's obviously a big undertaking, and I'm sure there are people at the Browns who recognize that a much easier path would be to start "fresh" in one of the many suburbs that would happily throw money and land at them. (Hello, Bedford Hts Browns?)  

  

[surfohio]

15 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Been there, did that. Remember Municipal Stadium which the Indians and Browns shared?

Yes. I worked there lol. No I mean a venue that is more amenable to year round usage, like Lucas Oil in Indy. The current stadium has made some decent strides with their event space, but not enough of the stadium is usable. A retractable roof is almost a necessity. 

[Cleburger]

8 minutes ago, surfohio said:

Yes. I worked there lol. No I mean a venue that is more amenable to year round usage, like Lucas Oil in Indy. The current stadium has made some decent strides with their event space, but not enough of the stadium is usable. A retractable roof is almost a necessity. 

 

Have a look at the current Lucas Oil Field schedule.   http://www.lucasoilstadium.com/upcoming-events.aspx   More than half the currently listed events are less than 10,000 people.  Some are only 150 (anyone up for an Indy road trip for some wedding crashing!)

 

I'm not saying I'd be 100% opposed to a retractable roof if the numbers worked out (sure a Final Four or even Big 10 championship in Cleveland would be great), but I feel like that ship has sailed until we get yet another new stadium.    In the absence of this, the best lipstick on our pig lies on renovating the surroundings of the stadium.   Build on mixed-use additions.   A clever site plan could incorporate many of the bridge-from-downtown plans floating around these forums, and add in further restaurant, retail and meeting places, along with the much needed premium parking access. 

 

[surfohio]

6 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

A clever site plan could incorporate many of the bridge-from-downtown plans floating around these forums, and add in further restaurant, retail and meeting places, along with the much needed premium parking access. 

Agree. And I think that's what Dee Haslem is all about. 

[surfohio]

59 minutes ago, ML11 said:

I think a best case scenario is that the Browns exercise some of their leverage to drive political will for reshaping the lakefront to be more accessible.  In turn I'd expect that to open up opportunities for them to position a renovated (or new) stadium alongside a larger real estate development and better parking access for the Premium folks.   

Here's hoping for the best case scenario!

 

I am a little intrigued about their parking concerns. Like, how much is motivated by revenues and how much is motivated by altruism, e.g. fans game day experience. Virtually every tailgate lot is in some danger of being developed, and rightfully so. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by surfohio

[KJP]

I'm hearing four sites are being looked at right now....

Edited September 14, 2019 by KJP

[tj111]

34 minutes ago, KJP said:

I'm hearing four sites are being looked at right now....

For a new stadium?

[cle_guy90]

1 hour ago, KJP said:

I'm hearing four sites are being looked at right now....

 

Any idea locations? All downtown? Any not in the city of Cleveland?

[Htsguy]

So does this mean that the Haslam's are no longer interested in partnering on lakefront redevelopment?

[inlovewithCLE]

2 hours ago, KJP said:

I'm hearing four sites are being looked at right now....

For a new stadium? That’s huge news

[ckoehle1]

Wait, what? New stadium?

[marty15]

Huh?

[inlovewithCLE]

@KJP drops a bomb and disappears You’re leaving us in suspense, man! Lol

[KJP]

3 hours ago, Htsguy said:

So does this mean that the Haslam's are no longer interested in partnering on lakefront redevelopment?

 

Existing stadium is one of the four. I hope to write about this when I get home this evening. I started writing about it but stopped when I realized it would make a better article. Sorry.

[Larry1962]

40 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Existing stadium is one of the four. I hope to write about this when I get home this evening. I started writing about it but stopped when I realized it would make a better article. Sorry.

The best case IMHO is an renovated and upgraded existing stadium with a DOME added so that it could provide year round events.  Like a SUPER BOWL, concerts, and if the Convention Center is extended over the train tracks then it could be connected and help to attract bigger conventions too.

 

And it would make sense for the Browns, Science Center, Rock Hall, and PACE to be partners in his new LAKEFRONT DEVELOPMENT!

 

So that whole area is improved and it will provide new housing, new offices, new retail, better parking ect.  with a corresponding 

increase in attendance in all attractions in that area too.

 

And it would be A LOT CHEAPER TO UPGRADE the existing stadium then having to build a brand new one in 10-20 years!

Edited September 14, 2019 by Larry1962
Added more details

[MyPhoneDead]

Just now, Larry1962 said:

The best case IMHO is an renovated and upgraded existing stadium with a DOME added so that it could provide year round events.  Like a SUPER BOWL, concerts, and if the Convention Center is extended over the trains then it could be connected and help to attract bigger conventions too.

Couldn't the money it will cost for a brand new stadium literally pay for ALL of this. Seeing that stadiums cost upwards of 5 billion dollars. A much more beneficial option imo.

[inlovewithCLE]

31 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Couldn't the money it will cost for a brand new stadium literally pay for ALL of this. Seeing that stadiums cost upwards of 5 billion dollars. A much more beneficial option imo.

The Browns aren’t spending money on a development without a new/renovated stadium somewhere. So it’s a false choice. That $5 billion as you say will either be spent on a new/renovated stadium (AND development hopefully) or nothing

[Potamus]

Stadiums are expensive but they don't cost $5B.  The most recently built stadium was Mercedes-Benz stadium in Atlanta which cost $1.6B in 2017.  The Niners stadium opened in  2014 and cost $1.3B while Minnesota built one that opened in 2016 for a little over $1B. AT&T stadium in Dallas was $1.2B back in 2009.

 

Point is, stadium costs are crazy enough - you don't need to exaggerate by tripling them.

[simplythis]

35 minutes ago, Potamus said:

Stadiums are expensive but they don't cost $5B.  The most recently built stadium was Mercedes-Benz stadium in Atlanta which cost $1.6B in 2017.  The Niners stadium opened in  2014 and cost $1.3B while Minnesota built one that opened in 2016 for a little over $1B. AT&T stadium in Dallas was $1.2B back in 2009.

 

Point is, stadium costs are crazy enough - you don't need to exaggerate by tripling them.

Isn't the Raiders new stadium in Las Vegas supposed to cost well over 2B

[Mov2Ohio]

41 minutes ago, Potamus said:

Stadiums are expensive but they don't cost $5B.  The most recently built stadium was Mercedes-Benz stadium in Atlanta which cost $1.6B in 2017.  The Niners stadium opened in  2014 and cost $1.3B while Minnesota built one that opened in 2016 for a little over $1B. AT&T stadium in Dallas was $1.2B back in 2009.

 

Point is, stadium costs are crazy enough - you don't need to exaggerate by tripling them.

For the most part that's true. The new Stadium development in LA however, is about 5 billion. 1 billion is about the average these days.

[zbaris87]

1 hour ago, Mov2Ohio said:

For the most part that's true. The new Stadium development in LA however, is about 5 billion. 1 billion is about the average these days.

The stadium in LA is 2.4 Billion to build and the surrounding area (Housing, retail and commercial space) is 2.6 billion. 

[Mov2Ohio]

2 minutes ago, zbaris87 said:

The stadium in LA is 2.4 Billion to build and the surrounding area (Housing, retail and commercial space) is 2.6 billion. 

Exactly. 5 billion. Hence why I said stadium development.

[Clvlndr in LV]

2 hours ago, simplythis said:

Isn't the Raiders new stadium in Las Vegas supposed to cost well over 2B

1.8 billion was the projected cost. 65,000 seats including lots of luxury boxes/seats and a dome; because tomorrows forecast high is 102. 

[Frmr CLEder]

Cleveland has the enviable position of having all sports venues within easy walking distance of one another. Few cities can make that claim.

 

The stadium should stay put, add a dome and develop around it, consistent with Richard Pace's growing development. Another, less favorable option, would be to build a new stadium along the Opportunity Corridor project or in some of the brownfields on the eastside. That eliminates the advantages of option 1.

 

Lol. Tried entering D.I.C.K. Pace, but editor kept replacing with d*ck. I know the guy.  We went to high school together in Hunting Valley.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Frmr CLEder
Ongoing automatic editing issues

[inlovewithCLE]

 

@KJP what’s up with that new article? Lol

[tastybunns]

The reason why the new Raiders stadium costs so much is because Vegas wouldn't allow them to build a new stadium unless they built a prison underneath. Yet the stadium isn't supposed to be any more special than FES. So it took a while with the drafts and eventually the excavating just puts the icing on the cake as it's been under construction for just about 3 going on 4 years. An entirely subterranean prison, underneath the Raiders stadium.

[MyPhoneDead]

1 minute ago, tastybunns said:

The reason why the new Raiders stadium costs so much is because Vegas wouldn't allow them to build a new stadium unless they built a prison underneath. Yet the stadium isn't supposed to be any more special than FES. So it took a while with the drafts and eventually the excavating just puts the icing on the cake as it's been under construction for just about 3 going on 4 years. An entirely subterranean prison, underneath the Raiders stadium.

A prison? Yikes.

[Clvlndr in LV]

23 minutes ago, tastybunns said:

The reason why the new Raiders stadium costs so much is because Vegas wouldn't allow them to build a new stadium unless they built a prison underneath. Yet the stadium isn't supposed to be any more special than FES. So it took a while with the drafts and eventually the excavating just puts the icing on the cake as it's been under construction for just about 3 going on 4 years. An entirely subterranean prison, underneath the Raiders stadium.

I'm afraid you have some bad information. The rumor was a small holding facility for unruly fans but this was only a rumor and is not being built. The stadium has only been under construction for a little over two years and will be ready for the 2020 season. 

[tastybunns]

There wasn't anything ruling these plans out, according to many sources they haven't deviated from the original concept, with holding cells and a courthouse right underneath turf.

[Clvlndr in LV]

40 minutes ago, tastybunns said:

There wasn't anything ruling these plans out, according to many sources they haven't deviated from the original concept, with holding cells and a courthouse right underneath turf.

They were unconfirmed sources and according to the stadium authority untrue but I believe we have ventured off topic. Here's an article on it: https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbaker/2018/08/23/las-vegas-raiders-stadium-jail-court/#52dee4f7597b

 

From the article:  Reached for comment, the Las Vegas Stadium Authority said in a statement: “There will NOT be a jail or a courthouse at the Las Vegas Raiders Stadium." 

Who knows, after all we have Area 51. 

[KJP]

Sorry for the delay. Life often intrudes......

 

 

MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 16, 2019

Stadium sites are as much about development

 

It's still early in the game, but a few sites in downtown Cleveland are being considered by the Haslam family, owners of the Cleveland Browns, for a large, stadium-oriented development zone. The planning process is just getting underway with an eye toward 2029 -- the year the team's lease ends with the city for use of First Energy Stadium.

While the record of sports stadiums producing spin-off economic development has been uneven, much of it is due to the fact that the stadiums were often considered the end product. Most stadiums were sponsored by public agencies and any spin-off development was often not part of a coherent plan, let alone part of the sponsoring agencies' organizational missions.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/09/stadium-sites-are-as-much-about.html

[simplythis]

22 minutes ago, KJP said:

Sorry for the delay. Life often intrudes......

 

 

MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 16, 2019

Stadium sites are as much about development

 

It's still early in the game, but a few sites in downtown Cleveland are being considered by the Haslam family, owners of the Cleveland Browns, for a large, stadium-oriented development zone. The planning process is just getting underway with an eye toward 2029 -- the year the team's lease ends with the city for use of First Energy Stadium.

While the record of sports stadiums producing spin-off economic development has been uneven, much of it is due to the fact that the stadiums were often considered the end product. Most stadiums were sponsored by public agencies and any spin-off development was often not part of a coherent plan, let alone part of the sponsoring agencies' organizational missions.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/09/stadium-sites-are-as-much-about.html

KJ - you mentioned the intermodal yards as option 3. Does that mean that the Force/USL Stadium deal is falling apart? What do you know on that?