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George Floyd Protests

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Just now, richNcincy said:

* Involuntary manslaughter in Minnesota is called manslaughter in the second degree.

that is not the problem

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And since we're going to nitpick, I was partially right.  

 

(See what I did there, admitted I was both wrong and right).

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Just now, richNcincy said:

And since we're going to nitpick, I was partially right.  

 

(See what I did there, admitted I was both wrong and right).

It's a bad look dude. But you do you.

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Just now, freefourur said:

It's a bad look dude. But you do you.

I'm trying to figure out what the problem is? Manslaughter is for sure. Sure they charged him with murder but I personally doubt that will stick unless he admitted he did it with intent. You can charge anyone with anything.

 

Who cares whose right or wrong. It's all just our opinions anyhow. This is devolving to a high school fight about who has the moral high ground. It's sort of weird.  

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Just now, KFM44107 said:

I'm trying to figure out what the problem is? Manslaughter is for sure. Sure they charged him with murder but I personally doubt that will stick unless he admitted he did it with intent. You can charge anyone with anything.

 

Who cares whose right or wrong. It's all just our opinions anyhow. This is devolving to a high school fight about who has the moral high ground. It's sort of weird.  

 

Very well said.  Let's move on.

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3 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

I'm trying to figure out what the problem is? Manslaughter is for sure. Sure they charged him with murder but I personally doubt that will stick unless he admitted he did it with intent. You can charge anyone with anything.

 

Who cares whose right or wrong. It's all just our opinions anyhow. This is devolving to a high school fight about who has the moral high ground. It's sort of weird.  

intent is not required with a Murder 3 charge.

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47 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

THere is definitely something wrong in Minneapolis. Between this and the Castile matter last year. There needs to be some major restructuring in the police force. 

Yes I was shocked by the Castile case. Although that was not the Minneapolis PD there does seem to be a problem there in the area.

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I wish the looters stopped looting. My semi-racist friends on Facebook are all using this as cannon fodder to blame how uncivilized black people are and how they don't even care about the death but more about the reaction to commit anarchy and chaos.

 

They posted that it was just an excuse for them to loot the footlocker store and steal all the sneakers in which they posted a photo in saint Paul of a foot looked being mobbed with over 50 black teenagers rushing inside to steal all the merchandise. 

 

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8 minutes ago, freefourur said:

It's a bad look dude. But you do you.

 

6 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

You're impossible.  We were both correct and wrong at the same time.  It's okay, it happens.

Please can you both stop or take this to pm's? This back and forth that has been going on looks very petty and is a bad look for the both of you and the board. Really you are both better than this. JMHO. Please continue to post your opinions but let the 'tit for tat" posting nonsense stop.

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5 minutes ago, freefourur said:

intent is not required with a Murder 3 charge.

Ahh got it. I only read the statutes posted up here. That's my bad then, I just assumed Minnesota was like Ohio where you have Agg Murder, Murder, involuntary manslaughter, voluntary manslaughter, etc. 

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11 minutes ago, troeros said:

I wish the looters stopped looting. My semi-racist friends on Facebook are all using this as cannon fodder to blame how uncivilized black people are and how they don't even care about the death but more about the reaction to commit anarchy and chaos.

 

They posted that it was just an excuse for them to loot the footlocker store and steal all the sneakers in which they posted a photo in saint Paul of a foot looked being mobbed with over 50 black teenagers rushing inside to steal all the merchandise. 

 

The news just likes to post the shocking stuff. Not the actual peaceful protests by the actual Minneapolis black community. It's a sad world we live in. 

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1 minute ago, KFM44107 said:

The news just likes to post the shocking stuff. Not the actual peaceful protests by the actual Minneapolis black community. It's a sad world we live in. 

There's some rumors that the rioting is being caused by outside provocateurs.

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1 minute ago, freefourur said:

There's some rumors that the rioting is being caused by outside provocateurs.

It for sure Is. I've heard through the police grapevine that alot of the arrested have out of state IDs. To back that theory up my buddy who was in the Mizzou National Guard when Ferguson happened got deployed to there. He said almost everyone they arrested was from the coasts. 

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10 minutes ago, freefourur said:

There's some rumors that the rioting is being caused by outside provocateurs.

It looks like more than rumors-especially with the video of the white guy in black and with hammer in hand systematically taking out the windows of the Auto Zone shop. I watched a lot of live coverage overnight and much of the "rioting" as in burning, looting, vandalizing, etc. was being done by whites. Whites have been a significant part in all of this, including the looting.

 

Along with the "agent provacateurs" who may be right wing I think there is a definite presence of left wing anarchist types/Antifa and a good proportion of young people who are just taking advantage of the situation to either express pent up frustration over a lot of things, or to just engage in drunken destructive debauchery(there has ALWAYS been a component of young people who will do this). 

 

I also think that some of the white protesters are just pissed off by the police brutality and are concerned with the real issues at hand and the seeming militarization of police departments. I think many people realize that the problems with police departments are not only racially defined but are also defined by actual or perceived socio-economic class or status.*

 

*while visible minorities get it the worst, poor whites and working class whites have never been immune to excessive use of force by the police in comparison to whites of perceived higher status or income.

Edited by Toddguy

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^ There is a rumor that the AutoZone is a cop but I haven't seen it from a reputable source though. The video doesn't show him being part of the protest but just walking in and busting windows.

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1 minute ago, Toddguy said:

It looks like more than rumors-especially with the video of the white guy in black and with hammer in hand systematically taking out the windows of the Auto Zone shop. I watched a lot of live coverage overnight and much of the "rioting" as in burning, looting, vandalizing, etc. was being done by whites. Whites have been a significant part in all of this, including the looting.

 

Along with the "agent provacateurs" who may be right wing I think there is a definite presence of left wing anarchist types/Antifa and a good proportion of young people who are just taking advantage of the situation to either express pent up frustration over a lot of things, or to just engage in drunken destructive debauchery(there has ALWAYS been a component of young people who will do this). 

 

I also think that some of the white protesters are just pissed off by the police brutality and are concerned with the real issues at hand and the seeming militarization of police departments. I think many people realize that the problems with police departments are not only racially defined but are also defined by actual or perceived socio-economic class or status.

Honestly I think the really spot on. Alot of lazy people just associate being poor with being African Americab and vice versa. Even poor white people don't think they're poor in the same way African Americans are. 

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^A lot of white people that think like that have a few acres of land that is worth nothing and junk cars piled up on it so they think they're richer even though they're not.

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8 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

No one significant has defended the cops.   Not the harshest rightest on my FB, not any of the cops.   Hell, even Rush Limbaugh went off on them on yesterday's show.

Then the riots started, and the unanimity they had was undermined.

I doubt one in fifty of the rioters could name Justine Damond, either.

If the goal of the BLM types is to rein in police behavior, they are doing things very counterproductively.

 

There's a MAYOR defending the cops... right there for ya buddy... one of your right wing circle jerk buddies....

 

Ever heard of the Boston tea party?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Toddguy said:

Yes I was shocked by the Castile case. Although that was not the Minneapolis PD there does seem to be a problem there in the area.

Forgot that the cops in Castille's case were from Bloomington. 

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2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

In this case, I dont see him getting off. Too much outrage and it appears the video shows too much to create the gray area, but of course you never know. 

 

In a perfect world, sure.  But this is America.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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1 hour ago, troeros said:

I wish the looters stopped looting. My semi-racist friends on Facebook are all using this as cannon fodder to blame how uncivilized black people are and how they don't even care about the death but more about the reaction to commit anarchy and chaos.

 

They posted that it was just an excuse for them to loot the footlocker store and steal all the sneakers in which they posted a photo in saint Paul of a foot looked being mobbed with over 50 black teenagers rushing inside to steal all the merchandise. 

 

 

Sounds like you need new friends.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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This guy needs to be apprehended.   Clearly he wanted to incite things.  If he is a cop, he had probable cause to do such a thing and take the heat of the cops.  

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

In a perfect world, sure.  But this is America.

 

Eric Garner killed over selling cigarettes.

George Floyd killed over an alleged counterfeit $20 bill.


Very Stable Genius

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I think the African American community is just getting fed up.

 

Another police murder, on top of the murder of the GA jogger, the disproportionate impact of COVID-19/SDOH and the Presidential response have simply brought things to a boiling point.

 

I just pray that we don't see a repeat of the riots of the 60s.

Edited by Frmr CLEder

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28 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

 

In a perfect world, sure.  But this is America.

But again, I would rather see the guilty cop go free if a jury of his peers deems so, then the state to put him in jail and violation of due process rights. 

 

In China, he would be in jail or a death camp after what happened, but it would not be for murdering Flynn, it would be for causing the riots and unrest on the street. 

 

I think given the evidence, it is going to be hard to show a not guilty verdict. 1) He was using deadly force when it was not required, 2) he was not following police protocols for the situation. 3) it resulted in a death that even the most hardened and callous person is outraged by.  There really is no gray area on this one. I am also glad the prosecutor was not over zealous and charge him with 1st degree or something like that which would have been harder to prove. I think the charges will lead to a conviction or some type of plea. Unfortunately, he will be out of jail with 5 years given the typical sentence for such crimes and how these cases are handled. 

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26 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I think given the evidence, it is going to be hard to show a not guilty verdict. 1) He was using deadly force when it was not required, 2) he was not following police protocols for the situation. 3) it resulted in a death that even the most hardened and callous person is outraged by.  There really is no gray area on this one. I am also glad the prosecutor was not over zealous and charge him with 1st degree or something like that which would have been harder to prove. I think the charges will lead to a conviction or some type of plea. Unfortunately, he will be out of jail with 5 years given the typical sentence for such crimes and how these cases are handled. 

 

We really haven't come that far from Rodney King in 1991...

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2 hours ago, freefourur said:

^ There is a rumor that the AutoZone is a cop but I haven't seen it from a reputable source though. The video doesn't show him being part of the protest but just walking in and busting windows.

That person has been identified as Jacob Pederson, a police officer, by his ex-wife and one other person, but he is denying it and the police have apparently exonerated him and state he has an alibi for that time.

 

He definitely was just an outside agitator, from either the far right or possibly even the far left(I would guess far right but who knows at this point?)

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3 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

I'm trying to figure out what the problem is? Manslaughter is for sure. Sure they charged him with murder but I personally doubt that will stick unless he admitted he did it with intent. You can charge anyone with anything.

 

Who cares whose right or wrong. It's all just our opinions anyhow. This is devolving to a high school fight about who has the moral high ground. It's sort of weird.  

 

You don't always need intent for a murder charge. Oftentimes reckless disregard is enough. Like if someone started shooting a gun in a crowded area. You don't have to prove the shooter specifically intended to kill Mrs. Jones. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depraved-heart_murder

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36 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

You don't always need intent for a murder charge. Oftentimes reckless disregard is enough. Like if someone started shooting a gun in a crowded area. You don't have to prove the shooter specifically intended to kill Mrs. Jones. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depraved-heart_murder

Oh I know. But we were talking about the specific statute that was posted on here that was first degree murder in Minnesota. That did require intent. I then realized Minnesota is different than Ohio and has multiple degrees of murder opposed to naming them other things. 

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4 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

Oh I know. But we were talking about the specific statute that was posted on here that was first degree murder in Minnesota. That did require intent. I then realized Minnesota is different than Ohio and has multiple degrees of murder opposed to naming them other things. 

Under ohio statute though they could charge it as aggravated murder. In ohio, intent could be established by the fact that the officer could have stopped choking the victim. This is commonly charged according to a defense attorney friend of mine. 

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48 minutes ago, freefourur said:

Under ohio statute though they could charge it as aggravated murder. In ohio, intent could be established by the fact that the officer could have stopped choking the victim. This is commonly charged according to a defense attorney friend of mine. 

In Ohio it's a little different because is requires prior calculation and design as well as purposeful intent.l for agg murder.  I can buy that they could charge him with it, though I would say they would be better to just stick him with murder which only requires the mens rea of knowingly opposed to purposely. Though remember this is Ohio and our statute for agg murder would be comparable to Minnesota's murder of the first degree. 

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When Andrew McCarthy and National Review are turning on the cops, you know the situation is bad:

 

Why Did It Take So Long to Arrest Derek Chauvin?

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/why-did-it-take-so-long-to-arrest-derek-chauvin/

 

The claim that the prosecutor had to wait to authorize an arrest until the investigators nailed down all the evidence is nonsense. ...

 

 

Investigators did not need to be sure that they could make a third-degree murder charge stick to know that some kind of prosecutable homicide happened in the killing of George Floyd. This was not a fleeting incident, or a situation in which Floyd was resisting — he was pleading for his life. At the very least, this was a negligent homicide; more likely, it was something worse. Obviously, it was a crime. When a violent crime has clearly happened, the person who committed it should be placed under arrest, immediately.

 

I doubt it will be fatal to the case, but the prosecution is going to take some hits over the delay. Chauvin’s lawyers will contend that he was not arrested because investigators recognized that there was insufficient evidence; they will add that he was only charged because Minneapolis was burning and the mob had to be satisfied. I do not believe that claim will overcome the evidence of guilt. But the claim would not be available if Chauvin had been arrested promptly, as he should have been.

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What I find interesting about the social media response to all of this is that there seems to be some sort of threshold this thing crossed where all sorts of white people who have little contact with the white or black working classes started chiming in with "heartfelt" grievances.  These people don't give a damn any more than they gave a damn about ALS during the ice bucket challenge.  

 

There's a lot of lame stuff in this world.  Feigned outrage over flashpoint news items is pretty lame. 

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It's definitely a bit of virtue signaling. If people already know your answer regarding how you feel about it there's not much need to publicly condemn it since it is obvious.

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3 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

Oh I know. But we were talking about the specific statute that was posted on here that was first degree murder in Minnesota. That did require intent. I then realized Minnesota is different than Ohio and has multiple degrees of murder opposed to naming them other things. 

Ohh...roger that. 

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3 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

 

 

Oh, state sanctioned violence against the press. That's not 3rd World or anything.

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1 hour ago, Gramarye said:

When Andrew McCarthy and National Review are turning on the cops, you know the situation is bad:

 

Why Did It Take So Long to Arrest Derek Chauvin?

 

I'm gonna assume we both have quite a few republican friends. You're right. I didn't really want to, but I did scroll through my social media the other day to get the gist of what my right wing contingents were saying. For the first time there was not a single one of them defending the police. Even my friends who ARE police. Seriously. This is like a sea change moment. 

Edited by surfohio

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1 minute ago, surfohio said:

 

I'm gonna assume we both have quite a few republican friends. You're right. I didn't really want to, but I did scroll through my social media the other day to get the gist of what my right wing contingents were saying. For the first time there was not a single one of them defending the police. Even my friends who ARE police. Seriously. This is like a sea change moment. 

 

Don't worry, Right-Wing think tanks, the Russians and whoever else will come up with rhetoric that stomps it flat and disseminate it over the next few days.

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54 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

 

Don't worry, Right-Wing think tanks, the Russians and whoever else will come up with rhetoric that stomps it flat and disseminate it over the next few days.

 

Yep.  I know a few Trump supporters who were all about the stay-at-home orders and wearing masks... until it became a dumb rallying cry for "freedom".   This is what happens when people don't have any core beliefs of their own.

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Unfortunately many of the protests happening in Cincinnati and Columbus tonight did turn destructive. I’m sure many photos will be taken and shared tomorrow after the sun comes up. Here in Cincinnati there has been a lot of damage to buildings in southern OTR and a few places in the CBD including the Hamilton County jail. Many parallels to 2001.

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7 hours ago, taestell said:

Unfortunately many of the protests happening in Cincinnati and Columbus tonight did turn destructive. I’m sure many photos will be taken and shared tomorrow after the sun comes up. Here in Cincinnati there has been a lot of damage to buildings in southern OTR and a few places in the CBD including the Hamilton County jail. Many parallels to 2001.

 

Tonight is Cleveland's turn with a scheduled protest. Keep safe, people. Meanwhile in Louisville....

 

 


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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19 hours ago, freefourur said:

There's some rumors that the rioting is being caused by outside provocateurs.

 

Yesterday, I got the following text message from my employer's emergency alert system:

 

Quote

SECURITY ALERT: UNITED STATES/URBAN CENTRES: Further Violent Protest Highly Likely

Protests are likely to continue in urban centres and increase in size over the weekend.  Violent protest is likely to illicit robust police response.  If caught in a protest move away quickly. Obey the directives of security forces without hesitation.  Minimize time spent close to police stations or other government buildings such as they may develop into protest locations.

 

Today, they sent an email which more information, including:

 

Quote

For background and context: We received notifications from two of our security vendors that they had identified malicious groups intending to infiltrate and use these justified protests to incite unnecessary violence. The message was meant to alert people to these bad actors and to encourage awareness of the potential for violence.

 

So, yes, there appears to be more than anecdotal evidence that a lot of the looting and property damage was not cause by the organizers of these protests, but instead was caused by bad actors who "infiltrated" these protests for malicious reasons.

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Nope, no racism here....

 

Edited by KJP

"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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14 hours ago, Gramarye said:

When Andrew McCarthy and National Review are turning on the cops, you know the situation is bad:

 

Why Did It Take So Long to Arrest Derek Chauvin?

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/why-did-it-take-so-long-to-arrest-derek-chauvin/

 

The claim that the prosecutor had to wait to authorize an arrest until the investigators nailed down all the evidence is nonsense. ...

 

 

Investigators did not need to be sure that they could make a third-degree murder charge stick to know that some kind of prosecutable homicide happened in the killing of George Floyd. This was not a fleeting incident, or a situation in which Floyd was resisting — he was pleading for his life. At the very least, this was a negligent homicide; more likely, it was something worse. Obviously, it was a crime. When a violent crime has clearly happened, the person who committed it should be placed under arrest, immediately.

 

I doubt it will be fatal to the case, but the prosecution is going to take some hits over the delay. Chauvin’s lawyers will contend that he was not arrested because investigators recognized that there was insufficient evidence; they will add that he was only charged because Minneapolis was burning and the mob had to be satisfied. I do not believe that claim will overcome the evidence of guilt. But the claim would not be available if Chauvin had been arrested promptly, as he should have been.

 

It took seven months to arrest Mohammed Noor.  Eventually it was going to happen.

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I am all for the protesting and can even understand the destruction of police cars, attacking police precincts, appropriate targets, etc.(while not condoning it) But the looting and vandalizing?

 

I hate that they smashed into the Ohio Theater and tried to set a fire. 

 

Also I just saw some video of the looting at upscale Lenox Mall and Phipps Plaza in Atlanta. How is it about George Floyd being murdered when people are basically having a big party laughing with glee as they smash open the Gucci shop?

 

I get the protest at CNN-a major news outlet-and burning some cars. I don't condone it, but I get it. But the random @ss looting?  It is just not a good look and takes away from the bigger picture and provides fodder for the Trump crowd and will be exploited endlessly by them.  

 

Too much of this has descended into a celebration of chaos and disorder for no good reason. Watching some of these protests the feel of some is light-hearted like a big party-how are you going to be smiling and laughing if you are protesting the blatant murder of a black man by a police officer? Too much of this is just people being destructive for the sake of being destructive and looting. "Hey they are stealing sh@t and burning S@it down in Minnesota and are getting away with it...why not do it here so we can get in on it?" seems to be what is happening now. 

 

 

 

*This(my post here)is not to take away from the legitimate protesting that is going on.   Maybe with COVID-19 and people having been quarantined and all there is just extra energy and frustration?  Personally I don't give a damn about these upscale malls and shops-it is the logistics of it and how it will be used by the right to demonize the whole of the protesters and will be shown to white audiences as the "look at them!-they will kill us all if we let them" sh#tshow.

Edited by Toddguy

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