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DarkandStormy

George Floyd Protests

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13 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Poor protest behavior? I would not call rioters and looters protesters. THere are protesters and there are the anarchists. They are two different groups. The anarchists mix with the protesters to give them cover. They give the protesters a bad name. But rioters and looters are not protesters and should not be confused as such. They are criminals.

 

One of the early store break-ins / vandalism the other night in Minneapolis appears to have been carried out by...a cop.

 


Very Stable Genius

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If my buddy from the trade union can let someone go for sticking a suction cup to his head perhaps the police union can tell officers they're on their own in brutality cases. I bet that will make them re-evaluate their use of force.

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7 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

One of the early store break-ins / vandalism the other night in Minneapolis appears to have been carried out by...a cop.

 

Just because he has - had a badge does not mean he cant be a criminal. 

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33 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

 

FTFY.

There are certainly bad cops out there. Just like the looters and rioters ruin things for the protesters, the bad cops ruin it for the vast majority of good cops. 

 

How many cops are defending the actions of what happened to Flynn? I have not heard one. That is different from many of the other cases. Here there really is no gray area. 

 

Think about this. Those Minneapolis cops, their actions are likely to get other police officers killed across the country, whether it be vengeance or fear for their own safety, citizens will be more likely to take action against the police in more situations. That is not good for anyone.

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5 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

There are certainly bad cops out there. Just like the looters and rioters ruin things for the protesters, the bad cops ruin it for the vast majority of good cops. 

 

How many cops are defending the actions of what happened to Flynn? I have not heard one. That is different from many of the other cases. Here there really is no gray area. 

 

Gonna go ahead challenge this notion (like in the police thread) that "the vast majority" of cops are good.  40% of officer households report domestic violence.  If "the vast majority of cops" were good, we'd see other officers intervene in cases like George Floyd's.  Maybe we just have different definitions of "vast" or "good."

 

How many cops are calling on the officers in Minneapolis to be charged?  I have not heard one.  This happens in every case.  "Regretful" or "unfortunate" incident, but the system protects itself.  No one in law enforcement calls for these guys to be charged.  That the four were promptly fired instead of put on paid administrative leave is a minor miracle I suppose.

Edited by DarkandStormy

Very Stable Genius

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27 minutes ago, freefourur said:

^ they could end the rioting by arresting the murderers instead of trying to cover for them.

 

According to the statue it was not a murder.  So please use the correct terminology.

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Just now, richNcincy said:

 

According to the statue it was not a murder.  So please use the correct terminology.

Since I am not violating any terms of the forum, I'll use whatever term i choose.

 

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Just now, freefourur said:

Since I am not violating any terms of the forum, I'll use whatever term i choose.

 

 

I'm merely stating you are knowingly posting misinformation. 

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Just now, richNcincy said:

 

I'm merely stating you are knowingly posting misinformation. 

 the man was murdered.

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Want to do a fun compare/contrast?

 

"Very fine people on both sides"

vs.

"When the looting starts, the shooting starts"

 

See if you can spot the difference.


Very Stable Genius

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Just now, richNcincy said:

 Incorrect.

you are actually incorrect. so you can apologize or leave me alone.

 

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Just now, freefourur said:

you are actually incorrect. so you can apologize or leave me alone.

 

Was it a horrible tragedy that should have never happened, yes.  Should the officers be held accountable for their action/lack of action, yes.  Was it murder according to the Minnesota statute, no.  

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4 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

Was it a horrible tragedy that should have never happened, yes.  Should the officers be held accountable for their action/lack of action, yes.  Was it murder according to the Minnesota statute, no.  

You only posted the statute for 1st degree murder. There are 2 other levels of murder in MN. Before you accuse others of spreading misinformation, you should become informed yourself. Now kindly correct your misinformation since that is important to you.

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Protestors camp outside precincts and they are told they are just defending thugs. There is no justice.

Protestors block the freeways and they are told they are terrorists. There is no justice.

Protestors take a knee and they are told they are unamerican and SOBs. There is no justice.

Edited by DarkandStormy

Very Stable Genius

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2 minutes ago, freefourur said:

You only posted the statute for 1st degree murder. There are 2 other levels of murder in MN. Before you accuse others of spreading misinformation, you should become informed yourself. Now kindly correct your misinformation since that is important to you.

You are correct, I only posted Murder 1st degree.  But none of the murder statutes fit the crime.  The end.

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609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.

(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years

Edited by freefourur

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1 minute ago, richNcincy said:

You are correct, I only posted Murder 1st degree.  But none of the murder statutes fit the crime.  The end.

 

Did not realize UO was now both the District Attorney and a grand jury.


Very Stable Genius

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1 minute ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Did not realize UO was now both the District Attorney and a grand jury.

No one ever said it was.  But we all know these officers will be charged with involuntary manslaughter, not murder.  

And I reiterate my stance on this issue, it should have never happened and is a complete tragedy.  

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Just now, richNcincy said:

No one ever said it was.  But we all know these officers will be charged with involuntary manslaughter, not murder.  

And I reiterate my stance on this issue, it should have never happened and is a complete tragedy.  

I'm glad that what might happen in the future is what is considered factual now. Neither you or I know what statute the cop will be charged with. So to say I am spreading misinformation is just your opinion. 

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21 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Gonna go ahead challenge this notion (like in the police thread) that "the vast majority" of cops are good.  40% of officer households report domestic violence.  If "the vast majority of cops" were good, we'd see other officers intervene in cases like George Floyd's.  Maybe we just have different definitions of "vast" or "good."

 

How many cops are calling on the officers in Minneapolis to be charged?  I have not heard one.  This happens in every case.  "Regretful" or "unfortunate" incident, but the system protects itself.  No one in law enforcement calls for these guys to be charged.  That the four were promptly fired instead of put on paid administrative leave is a minor miracle I suppose.

 

Do you consider someone a bad person every time there is some type of indiscretion? Taking your statistic at face value and drawing the inference you try and draw from  it is extremely misleading and attempts to paint a false narrative. Even if we assume your numbers correct, what is the nature of the DV calls. There is a wide dichotomy of instances where DV is reported and just taking a broad number like that paints a very misleading picture. For example, who made those calls, was it the officer or the spouse or a child; Were they calls for violence or potential threat of violence,; did they involve serial abusers; was it the woman abusing the man? To paint such a broad brush with this statistic is very disingenuous and really only meant to mislead.  So, to say that over 1/3 of all cops are bad people in all areas of their life because of a domestic violence report really is nothing more than a false narrative.

 

Now that we have established that the notion that the majority of cops are not genuinely good, lets focus on the fact again that there are bad actors in every unit. it is the 80/20 principle at play. 

 

As for your statement on Cops not calling out the Minneapolis colleagues. One example is Dan Hiltz the head of the Cincinnati FOP. The guy typically defends cops to the core, and he said yesterday that he saw it and if he were on the jury, he would be one of the first to convict those cops. The Nashville chief expressed similar comments. A number of other leaders in police departments have expressed similar statements. This is not something you typically hear from the law enforcement community, but you are hearing it this time.

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1 minute ago, freefourur said:

I'm glad that what might happen in the future is what is considered factual now. Neither you or I know what statute the cop will be charged with. So to say I am spreading misinformation is just your opinion. 

If neither of us know what statute the officers will be charged with, lets leave it at that and not post a manslaughter, nor murder occurred. In doing so, neither of us are spreading misinformation.  

We can leave it at a tragedy occurred with a man losing his life.  Those who participated in this tragedy must be held accountable for their actions.

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Just now, richNcincy said:

If neither of us know what statute the officers will be charged with, lets leave it at that and not post a manslaughter, nor murder occurred. In doing so, neither of us are spreading misinformation.  

We can leave it at a tragedy occurred with a man losing his life.  Those who participated in this tragedy must be held accountable for their actions.

How about then you let me use the term I prefer and you apologize for saying I was spreading misinformation. Because under your definition then you are too.

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Just now, freefourur said:

How about then you let me use the term I prefer and you apologize for saying I was spreading misinformation. Because under your definition then you are too.

I'd prefer you use the term that the officers are charged with when they are charged.  Until then, any term is misinformation.

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4 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

I'd prefer you use the term that the officers are charged with when they are charged.  Until then, any term is misinformation.

So is it the policy of Urban Ohio than no crime can be discussed until there is a  statutory charge? Or can you just admit you've called me out for no reason.  

Edited by freefourur

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1 minute ago, freefourur said:

So is it the policy of Urban Ohio than no crime can be discussed until there is a  statutory charge? Or can you be  a big boy an admit you've called me out for no reason.  

All I said is that you were using the incorrect charge and would prefer you use the charge we all know will be used. And I called you out on it because a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. 

 

Also, I would have no problem apologizing for anything I've said which is incorrect or misinforming our users. Wouldn't you do the same?

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5 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Now that we have established that the notion that the majority of cops are not genuinely good, lets focus on the fact again that there are bad actors in every unit. it is the 80/20 principle at play. 

 

20% seems like more than just "a few bad apples."

 

5 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

As for your statement on Cops not calling out the Minneapolis colleagues. One example is Dan Hiltz the head of the Cincinnati FOP. The guy typically defends cops to the core, and he said yesterday that he saw it and if he were on the jury, he would be one of the first to convict those cops. The Nashville chief expressed similar comments. A number of other leaders in police departments have expressed similar statements. This is not something you typically hear from the law enforcement community, but you are hearing it this time.

 

I have not seen or read much of these.  That is good.  But again...it's only happening in the most blatant case, caught on video.  Eric Garner?  Philando Castile?  Alton Sterling?  Tamir Rice?  Sean Reed?  Stephon Clark?


Very Stable Genius

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^ So I will ask you again, does due process apply to all crimes discussed on UrbanOhio?  If someone is shot and killed is it UO policy to just call it an unfortunate situation?

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5 minutes ago, freefourur said:

^ So I will ask you again, does due process apply to all crimes discussed on UrbanOhio?  If someone is shot and killed is it UO policy to just call it an unfortunate situation?

You clearly do not read my responses.  I told you I would prefer you to use the charge we know they will be charged with. Also, at no point did I say anything about UO posting guidelines.  Am I not allowed to post my personal thoughts on issues brought up on this site?

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Just now, richNcincy said:

You clearly do not read my responses.  I told you I would prefer you to use the charge we know they will be charged with. Also, at no point did I say anything about UO posting guidelines.  Am I not allowed to post my personal thoughts on issues brought up on this site?

 

I would prefer that you leave me alone and I will continue to use which term I choose. I'm glad we are on the same page.

 

So Minnesota should arrest the loser dirty cop criminal murderers. 

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Just now, freefourur said:

 

I would prefer that you leave me alone and I will continue to use which term I choose. I'm glad we are on the same page.

 

So Minnesota should arrest the loser dirty cop criminal murderers. 

Glad we've both gotten our preferences out in the open.  

And, you're still wrong and will continue to be wrong. 

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^ Nope. You are actually wrong. The cops are dirty MURDERERS.

 

Under the statute I posted I am correct. 

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1 minute ago, freefourur said:

^ Nope. You are actually wrong. The cops are dirty MURDERERS.

 

Under the statute I posted I am correct. 

 

Your noted statute does not fit the elements of the crime committed.  I will also note that is my personal opinion, but will ultimately be determined by a jury.  Feel free to respond with whatever helps you feel you've "won" this discussion. Nice chat.

 

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3 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

 

Your noted statute does not fit the elements of the crime committed.  I will also note that is my personal opinion, but will ultimately be determined by a jury.  Feel free to respond with whatever helps you feel you've "won" this discussion. Nice chat.

 

OK then. Thanks for noting that is your personal opinion therefore saying that I am spreading misinformation is also just your opinion. And saying that I am wrong is also just your opinion. I'm glad it's all out in the open that admins will attack posters and accuse them of lying if their interpretation of statute differs.  Good to know.  

Edited by freefourur

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55 minutes ago, freefourur said:

609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.

(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years

I will just quote this since it seems to have been forgotten about previously.

 

I watched a reporter get arrested on CNN this morning.  What about that cop that clearly murdered George Floyd.  We need a national movement to start calling this BS what it is.  Murder.

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You were never attacked, your post validity was questioned.  You defended your opinion, as did I.   That is what forums are all about.  

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42 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

If neither of us know what statute the officers will be charged with, lets leave it at that and not post a manslaughter, nor murder occurred. In doing so, neither of us are spreading misinformation.  

 

52 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

But we all know these officers will be charged with involuntary manslaughter, not murder. 

 


Very Stable Genius

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3 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

You were never attacked, your post validity was questioned.  You defended your opinion, as did I.   That is what forums are all about.  

 

Gaslight time.

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9 hours ago, TwoStickney419 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/lawandcrime.com/high-profile/if-you-say-you-cant-breathe-youre-breathing-mississippi-mayor-defends-officers-involved-in-george-floyds-arrest/amp/

 

If You Say You Can’t Breathe, You’re Breathing’: Mississippi Mayor Defends Officers Involved in George Floyd’s Arrest

 

 

 

I could've put this in the other thread for police excessive use of force,.  But anyone defending police in this issue, definitely has some racism in them...     

 

 

Mississippi is such a stain.  I hate to label an entire state, but this mayor's attitude is prevalent in a majority of the place.  Sadly, that attitude is becoming more prevalent with the country's current administration.

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1 hour ago, richNcincy said:

 

According to the statue it was not a murder.  So please use the correct terminology.

 

This isn't merely questioning the validity of my post. This is you telling me to use the correct term. You decided to keep going when I told you I'd use the term I choose. You weren't merely debating. you wanted me to shut up.  You are also an admin which makes statements like those appear to be an attack.  mature person would have said " I don't think it fits the murder statute." You would still be wrong but it wouldn't appear as an attack.

Edited by freefourur

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44 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

I'd prefer you use the term that the officers are charged with when they are charged.  Until then, any term is misinformation.

 

58 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

But we all know these officers will be charged with involuntary manslaughter, not murder.  

 

By saying using ANY TERM before the officers are charged = misinformation, then saying "we all know these officers will be charged with involuntary manslaughter" is the very misinformation you are seeking to correct.

 

Also..."murder" is just a common word for when someone kills someone.  @freefourur is not a journalist writing an article about the cops.  Many common phrases are used all throughout this forum, despite not meeting the "legal standards" or charges having been filed.  If you're going to ask that every legal crime being posted about needs to have had charges filed...you're going to be very busy.  It's a slippery slope and I don't think it's a path worth taking.


Very Stable Genius

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1 hour ago, richNcincy said:

 

I'm merely stating you are knowingly posting misinformation. 

This is also not just an opinion. It is an accusation of me personally.

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Just now, freefourur said:

 

This isn't merely questioning the validity of my post. This is you telling me to use the correct term. You decided to keep going when I told you I'd use the term I choose. You weren't merely debating. you wanted me to shut up.  You are also an admin which makes statements like those appear to be an attack.  mature person would have said " I don't think it fits the murder statute." You would still be wrong but it would appear as an attack.

It sounds like some of use aren't used to having to defend their statements.  You continued to defend your stance in an effort to get me to "shut up", so I'm failing to see how I'm the bad guy. If it makes you feel better, I'm sorry for questioning your statement and defending mine. 

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1 hour ago, freefourur said:

609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.

(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years

 

20 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

 

Your noted statute does not fit the elements of the crime committed.  

 

 

Can you specifically tell me the elements of the crime that are not committed?  Remember you accused me of KNOWINGLY spreading misiniformation.  

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1 hour ago, richNcincy said:

Was it a horrible tragedy that should have never happened, yes.  Should the officers be held accountable for their action/lack of action, yes.  Was it murder according to the Minnesota statute, no.  

 

This is semantics and obfuscation of what happened.  If this had been anyone but a cop, they would be charged. 

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1 minute ago, richNcincy said:

It sounds like some of use aren't used to having to defend their statements.  You continued to defend your stance in an effort to get me to "shut up", so I'm failing to see how I'm the bad guy. If it makes you feel better, I'm sorry for questioning your statement and defending mine. 

It sounds like you don't like people to call it what it is when it involves cops. So instead of trying to have a debate you accuse people of knowingly lying. That is not asking me to defend statements. You told me not to make them.

Edited by freefourur

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