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KJP

Cleveland: Outlet Mall Proposal for Lakefront

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6 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Thanks. Apparently the leasing for the Outlet Mall is going quite well. Source couldn't give me any details than that right now.

 

I expect they will attract the usual name brand discount retailers quite easily. I'm intrigued to see what sort of bar/restaurant/entertainment offerings they can muster. 

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15 hours ago, TBideon said:

NOLA

 

Yes, right across from the Harrah's casino.   


Our outlet mall should be in Tower City, where it has transit access, benefits downtown residents and has the built in "subsidy" of casino patrons.  

 

The tech hub should be somewhere else.   My suggestion:  a ground floor tenant in 925 Euclid.  

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1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

 

Yes, right across from the Harrah's casino.   


Our outlet mall should be in Tower City, where it has transit access, benefits downtown residents and has the built in "subsidy" of casino patrons.  

 

The tech hub should be somewhere else.   My suggestion:  a ground floor tenant in 925 Euclid.  

Not enough parking. We went through this already too. The target audience for this, the people who will actually shop here on a regular basis, are not using transit to get there. This has the potential to be a regional draw. It needs to have amenities that the target shopping audience are used to in order for it to work. And it’s also all a moot point anyway because the tech hub is going to be in Tower City, it’s not moving

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14 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

An outlet mall wouldn’t work in the middle of downtown for all of the million reasons mentioned up thread the last time everybody had this fight. Let it go. 

OK, but it would still be nice to see more retail downtown, ideally on Euclid Ave.  I'm worried that an outlet mall on the edge of downtown would derail any attempt to make that happen.  

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Some types of "retail" will come as CBD population density increases. The developments on Euclid are providing that increased density. The target audience for the Outlets is not the same audience seeking urban retail, as discussed repeatedly upthread.

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25 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Not enough parking. We went through this already too. The target audience for this, the people who will actually shop here on a regular basis, are not using transit to get there. This has the potential to be a regional draw. It needs to have amenities that the target shopping audience are used to in order for it to work. And it’s also all a moot point anyway because the tech hub is going to be in Tower City, it’s not moving

 

I never understood the "not enough parking" argument.   There is the existing Tower City parking infrastructure, and then there are the casino garages, complete with their skywalks.   I would think all of that would add up to more than the muni-lot site.  

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Downtown retail would be primarily for downtown residents, daytime workforce population, tourists, and the occasional suburban and inner city resident.

 

An outlet mall by that mess near Burke will be primarily for suburban residents, with some of the above. 

 

The two aren't really competing with one-another. Hell, no one is competing with anyone currently, since there isn't any retail to a significant degree period. Let's just be happy that this may come to fruition.

 

If my mom of all people is willing to come downtown if this is built, then I guarantee it'll be a boost for the local economy. 

 

And as for the parking by Tower City, yes, there is a ton. But it's like Whole Foods. They don't just move into any existing store (barring some outliers i.e. the one in Village Square for a few years). They have a particular model that they either conform to or don't bother at all. The developer of this outlet mall has a vision that Tower City/parking lots don't match. Let them have that nothingness by Burke.

Edited by TBideon
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5 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Also parking anywhere downtown is not free; this should be.

 

What are they going to do with all the daily parkers there?   Or Browns tailgaters?   

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Just now, Cleburger said:

 

What are they going to do with all the daily parkers there?   Or Browns tailgaters?   

 

No one parks at the east end of the muny lots. And I'll take a large collection of smaller businesses that attract visitors 365 days a year vs one that is open 10 days a year and takes more than it gives to the local taxbase.

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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

No one parks at the east end of the muny lots. And I'll take a large collection of smaller businesses that attract visitors 365 days a year vs one that is open 10 days a year and takes more than it gives to the local taxbase.

I don't disagree re tailgaters.   Might be a $hit-show the first few games once it's built though! 🙂

But this kind of shoots the "not enough parking" at Tower City argument down.  It will be a relatively small lot on that east end.     

Edited by Cleburger
fixed typo

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2 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Some types of "retail" will come as CBD population density increases. The developments on Euclid are providing that increased density. The target audience for the Outlets is not the same audience seeking urban retail, as discussed repeatedly upthread.

Correct

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Interesting. Personally speaking the discount retail outlets interest me but they seem to be making more of an effort than usual with their food beverage offerings than at their other centres. Can't say the usual Subway, Great American Cookies type fare was going to do much for me.

 

The building design and the mix base of the tenant offering looks far more like a lifestyle center than your standard old skool mall.

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51 minutes ago, irishflu2002 said:

This is a truncated version of the HGP press release posted upthread. Nothing new, but this version does not include the much debated target demographics.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
Spp

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39 minutes ago, snakebite said:

Interesting. Personally speaking the discount retail outlets interest me but they seem to be making more of an effort than usual with their food beverage offerings than at their other centres. Can't say the usual Subway, Great American Cookies type fare was going to do much for me.

 

The building design and the mix base of the tenant offering looks far more like a lifestyle center than your standard old skool mall.

That’s one of the things I like about it. It seems like they’re adapting their outlet mall concept to a lifestyle center style in the city, which I think is awesome  

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1 minute ago, inlovewithCLE said:

That’s one of the things I like about it. It seems like they’re adapting their outlet mall concept to a lifestyle center style in the city, which I think is awesome  

Agreed. There is actually quite a few unique things about this compared to your typical malls/retail centers in terms of the combination of the tenant mix, location etc. 

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I continue to like what I see about this. Also, the size really isn't that big, which I think is a plus. It really won't be dumping a glut of retail into the downtown market. Their plans are looking at 320k square feet while for comparison Southpark is 1.65M and Beachwood Place is just under 1M. 

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1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I think they've done their market research. They appear to know what will be attractive to their targeted demographic; a key to success.

Also I think they’re being smart about the foot traffic. By adding entertainment options it can draw people who don’t (or don’t like to) shop at the stores to come down there anyway 

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1 hour ago, freethink said:

 

I mentioned it and linked to it in the fourth paragraph of my Nov. 19 article here:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/11/the-outlet-shoppes-of-cleveland-is-back.html

 

The retailers included in the above graphic aren't signed retailers, per the disclaimer at the bottom. They are only examples of the kinds of retailers they typically have in their developments.

 

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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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16 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I mentioned it and linked to it in the fourth paragraph of my Nov. 19 article here:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/11/the-outlet-shoppes-of-cleveland-is-back.html

 

The retailers included in the above graphic aren't signed retailers, per the disclaimer at the bottom. They are only examples of the kinds of retailers they typically have in their developments.

 

Yeah that's what I was thinking but it shows Campbell Sweets which I think is local right?. And none of the other properties has them.  It also shows Jan 2021 as when the property would be available, so that probably puts them at a 2021 Summer opening maybe.

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Still hoping Sak's off 5th moves in here, instead of staying at drab and dingy Aurora. Interesting that the anchor spaces are planned to be entertainment, instead of other retail.

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I can remember Cleveland officials going to Baltimore to look at their Inner Harbor....   I have not been there in maybe a couple of decades....  but I'm shocked that it is in trouble...  guess it's a good thing we did not completely copy that model for our lakefront...

 

Quote

What Happened to Baltimore’s Harborplace?

 

The pioneering festival marketplace was among the most trendsetting urban attractions of the last 40 years. Now it’s looking for a new place in a changed city.

 

https://www.citylab.com/life/2020/01/baltimore-harborplace-inner-harbor-shopping-mall-attractions/604735/

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17 minutes ago, lockdog said:

I can remember Cleveland officials going to Baltimore to look at their Inner Harbor....   I have not been there in maybe a couple of decades....  but I'm shocked that it is in trouble...  guess it's a good thing we did not completely copy that model for our lakefront...

 

 

https://www.citylab.com/life/2020/01/baltimore-harborplace-inner-harbor-shopping-mall-attractions/604735/

The Inner Harbor area itself isn’t necessarily doing bad, it’s just much of the traffic has moved down to the Harbor East development. As Harbor East exploded with upscale shops and hotels, it sucked the life out of the Harborplace Pavilions and mall.

 

Harbor East is more a true neighborhood than what Harborplace ever was. I think that’s one reason Harborplace has struggled to stay relevant. The Power Plant on the Harbor has a few vacancies but is still hopping most days. Some new residential and office has been built there to make it more mixed use. Trying to just attract tourists is a dangerous way for a development to survive long term. Hopefully, Cleveland realizes that and anything down on the water will be made more sustainable. 

Edited by Mwd711
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Wow, I guess this falls into the "Be Careful What You Wish For" department. I was previously unaware of the plight of Inner Harbor.  I remember visiting Harbor Place a couple of times in the early/mid 2000's and thinking it was still extremely popular and a great model for the CLE lakefront.  But a lot has happened in the last 15 years.  Shopping malls in general have declined, particularly in certain areas that are perceived to be less desirable.  Maybe some of the publicized large scale disruptions and violence have discouraged  part of the population from going, particularly with the increasing ease of buying and returning items from Amazon and other on-line retailers.  And yet, certain retail centers (think Crocker Park)  are thriving.  I think Mwd711's point about sustainability for whatever develops on Cleveland's lakefront is excellent. Imagine the sad scenario of an Inner-Harbor type mall on our lakefront with the foot traffic of the current Tower City. Thinking about what will work 50 years from now, not just in the coming decade, has to be part of the planning for lakefront development, particularly near downtown.  As the city core's current residential population continues to grow, the lakefront can be an increasingly attractive incentive - but how can we turn it from a story of previous neglect and underdevelopment to one that beckons our youngest and future generations of the 21st century?  

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On 1/25/2020 at 10:03 PM, KJP said:

 

I mentioned it and linked to it in the fourth paragraph of my Nov. 19 article here:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/11/the-outlet-shoppes-of-cleveland-is-back.html

 

The retailers included in the above graphic aren't signed retailers, per the disclaimer at the bottom. They are only examples of the kinds of retailers they typically have in their developments.

 

If they get these retailers, my goodness. This is gonna be an excellent development 

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I remember the Galleria - the example retailers shown in the plan above were nothing like what was in the Galleria (at least when it first opened)

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I went to a new (?) ish outlet mall in Florida, the Palm Beach Outlets. It was better than I expected. Outdoor, sun shades, clean, busy. If we can pull off something like that then I am all for it. But I am a bit skeptical as to whether or not a project like that will do well here.

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20 minutes ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

I am a bit skeptical as to whether or not a project like that will do well here.

Why? An upscale outlet mall in the city center should do well here

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26 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Why? An upscale outlet mall in the city center should do well here

These are just my personal observations, but younger people don't "do" retail much any more, because it requires going outside, dealing with people, and the prices/selection are usually worse than online. And nobody has money. There is also a lot of retail in the east and west suburbs already. Why would someone go here over Crocker/Legacy/Beachwood/whatever?

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If this does well enough, I expect they will attract some more traditional retailers also, and some good ones. Their larger centers seem to have the likes of H&M in amongst all the usual outlet offerings.

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Uniqlo would be such a great addition, although outside of Asia they tend to almost always be in downtowns as opposed to mall. Which I’d be more than OK with!


And they reckon that the last thing she saw in her life was
Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican

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1 hour ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

I went to a new (?) ish outlet mall in Florida, the Palm Beach Outlets. It was better than I expected. Outdoor, sun shades, clean, busy. If we can pull off something like that then I am all for it. But I am a bit skeptical as to whether or not a project like that will do well here.

"The Palm Beach Outlets" replaced the Palm Beach Mall. I've been there many times (Jareds, BJs, Too-Jays). They demolished the indoor, brick & mortar, standard retail mall and replaced it with an outdoor mall. You're correct, it is usually busy, especially on the weekends. 

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