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Cleveland: Downtown: Sherwin-Williams HQ Related Infrastructure

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14 hours ago, mack34 said:

Ken,  any word on improvements to connecting the new R&D to downtown?  Like maybe refurbishing the lift bridge by the firestation?  Thats gonna be 1000 people who will want to grab lunch and are kinda stuck

^This! This is where the city needs to get it's collective sh$t together. Aside from the fact that the Warehouse district lots are an urban wasteland, the public spaces surrounding those areas are just as cold and uninviting. There is going to be A LOT of foot traffic along the following paths between the R&D facility and main HQ. The city could really see a boost in street life, but we need to support it with streetscape enhancements, particularly along the routes below

image.thumb.png.4f6ab6394dfd6e6571f697d8218cf879.png

 

W 3rd/Superior Intersection...Garbage

W 6th/Prospect/Superior Intersection...Garbage

W 9th/Huron/Superior Intersection...Piles of garbage.

 

Make it inviting and watch the streets come to life.

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24 minutes ago, mack34 said:

Ken,  any word on improvements to connecting the new R&D to downtown?  Like maybe refurbishing the lift bridge by the firestation?  Thats gonna be 1000 people who will want to grab lunch and are kinda stuck

I'm hoping this will push the city into reopening that fire station!

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45 minutes ago, mack34 said:

Ken,  any word on improvements to connecting the new R&D to downtown?  Like maybe refurbishing the lift bridge by the firestation?  Thats gonna be 1000 people who will want to grab lunch and are kinda stuck

Maybe rebuilding and restoring Eagle Ave. is in the development package from the city/county. With all the ambitious plans for Scranton, it’ll need to have better accessibility. 

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1 minute ago, marty15 said:

Maybe rebuilding and restoring Eagle Ave. is in the development package from the city/county. With all the ambitious plans for Scranton, it’ll need to have better accessibility. 

 

That could be a $100 million project right there.

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41 minutes ago, marty15 said:

The 480 bridge project is $220 million. This would be 1/100th the size project.

 

Movable bridges are much more expensive than static ones. Simply refurbishing an active, maintained Columbus Road lift bridge cost $32 million 6+ years ago (or $36 million today). The Eagle Avenue lift bridge towers and span may involve a partial replacement because they've been rotting away since the roadway was closed 15 years ago. The Eagle Avenue approach spans from Ontario Street were almost entirely demolished. Let's assume $40 million to $50 million for renovation and partial replacement of the movable bridge portion. A full replacement could potentially exceed $60 million to $70 million. The approach spans, totaling 1,500 feet in length, will have to be built new, including some or all of the part that remains over the RTA tracks. Cost of a 30-foot-wide, 1,500-foot-long concrete deck/steel girder/continuous span and support structures could cost $25 million to $35 million. In total, we're looking at anywhere from $65 million to $105 million. 

 

16 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

@KJP Congrats and thanks for all of your hard work! Your blog is catching some steam on FB 🙂

 

And it's getting a fair amount of attention on Twitter, too. The article itself has gotten more than 10,000 views in the first 8 hours. But that's still a long way from the 48,000 views that my "Bye, Euclid Square Mall; hello Amazon?" scoop got in 2017.

Edited by KJP
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34 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Movable bridges are much more expensive than static ones. Simply refurbishing an active, maintained Columbus Road lift bridge cost $32 million 6+ years ago (or $36 million today). The Eagle Avenue lift bridge towers and span may involve a partial replacement because they've been rotting away since the roadway was closed 15 years ago. The Eagle Avenue approach spans from Ontario Street were almost entirely demolished. Let's assume $40 million to $50 million for renovation and partial replacement of the movable bridge portion. A full replacement could potentially exceed $60 million to $70 million. The approach spans, totaling 1,500 feet in length, will have to be built new, including some or all of the part that remains over the RTA tracks. Cost of a 30-foot-wide, 1,500-foot-long concrete deck/steel girder/continuous span and support structures could cost $25 million to $35 million. In total, we're looking at anywhere from $65 million to $105 million.

 

I wonder if there would be a cheaper way to rebuild it- ditch the 1,500 long approach span and just give it a steep-ish ramp from Stone's Levee.  Or if the towers need rebuilt anyway, rebuild the Stone's Levee tower on a foundation at ground level instead of raised.  Or if it has to be rebuilt, take it down and rebuild it elsewhere- like maybe just around the bend leading direct from The Thunderbird to Tower City to provide the most direct route from Scranton Peninsula to Downtown.  At any rate, there's major development occurring in every direction from this bridge, so it may be worth doing something with soon!

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Rebuilding the Eagle ramp would also get more big trucks hauling aggregates to the Flats out of downtown.

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7 minutes ago, X said:

 

I wonder if there would be a cheaper way to rebuild it- ditch the 1,500 long approach span and just give it a steep-ish ramp from Stone's Levee.  Or if the towers need rebuilt anyway, rebuild the Stone's Levee tower on a foundation at ground level instead of raised.  Or if it has to be rebuilt, take it down and rebuild it elsewhere- like maybe just around the bend leading direct from The Thunderbird to Tower City to provide the most direct route from Scranton Peninsula to Downtown.  At any rate, there's major development occurring in every direction from this bridge, so it may be worth doing something with soon!

It needs to be explored. Good ideas here. The access points currently are pretty limited. 

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1 minute ago, KJP said:

Rebuilding the Eagle ramp would also get more big trucks hauling aggregates to the Flats out of downtown.

Another good point.

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If the bridge could be reconfigured to lower to grade, so it ties into Stones Levee, would greatly reduce cost, and would be more useable/functional. Then you would just need to ramp up from Canal up to Ontario. We’re a growing city again. These are things we need to start doing to get ahead of development to accommodate prospective new stakeholders. We need to get proactive instead of reactive.

Edited by marty15
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I can’t see the city not exploring options to help traffic into and out of Scranton. The bridge would be a no-brainer for the city to replace, given that Scranton is poised to have a great deal of development soon. Cleveland’s on a roll! 

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Serious question:   On a scale from not at all to Progressive, how insular is SW's corporate culture?


I could see them building their own garage where the tech center is now, and perhaps connecting it with covered walks or skywalks much like TC is to Gateway.

 

Tunnel pedestrian bridge across the river possibly.

 

Congestion is something most people endure when they feel it necessary but they don't seek it.

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From a SW employee that just came from a very progressive company in Columbus, their culture could not be more conservative. Very white male baby boomer culture (I am a white male almost 30). Building layout is old, culture is stagnant, and they don't even allow you to wear jeans on Friday. Forget working remote occasionally, flex time or anything like that. While the company does A LOT of things right (hence their stock price), there is definitely A TON of room for improvement here.

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9 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Movable bridges are much more expensive than static ones. Simply refurbishing an active, maintained Columbus Road lift bridge cost $32 million 6+ years ago (or $36 million today). The Eagle Avenue lift bridge towers and span may involve a partial replacement because they've been rotting away since the roadway was closed 15 years ago. The Eagle Avenue approach spans from Ontario Street were almost entirely demolished. Let's assume $40 million to $50 million for renovation and partial replacement of the movable bridge portion. A full replacement could potentially exceed $60 million to $70 million. The approach spans, totaling 1,500 feet in length, will have to be built new, including some or all of the part that remains over the RTA tracks. Cost of a 30-foot-wide, 1,500-foot-long concrete deck/steel girder/continuous span and support structures could cost $25 million to $35 million. In total, we're looking at anywhere from $65 million to $105 million. 

 

The Eagle Avenue lift bridge was rehabilitated in 1991 and closed in 2004 after some structural deterioration was found. It's actually in very poor condition at this moment because of superstructure and substructure issues and will need replacement. But for the cost of a new lift bridge, is it worth it for the 7,000 AADT that used it every day? I'm not sure.

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^^ I have occasional contact with some fairly senior people who are leading initiatives around things that are connected to culture and cohesiveness between the myriad business units. They’re making progress, but slowly. This is a common feature of pretty much every major, manufacturing-legacy employer in NEO. 

Edited by roman totale XVII
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35 minutes ago, ytown2ctown said:

From a SW employee that just came from a very progressive company in Columbus, their culture could not be more conservative. Very white male baby boomer culture (I am a white male almost 30). Building layout is old, culture is stagnant, and they don't even allow you to wear jeans on Friday. Forget working remote occasionally, flex time or anything like that. While the company does A LOT of things right (hence their stock price), there is definitely A TON of room for improvement here.

 

Do you work at the downtown HQ? My girlfriend went to work there today in jeans (it does cost a couple bucks but it goes to charity) and she gets to work from home once a week. The white male thing varies by department. For instance, my gf's direct report is a 38yr woman and her department is mostly made up of  younger females.

Edited by Clefan98
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9 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Do you work at the downtown HQ? My girlfriend went to work there today in jeans (it does cost a couple bucks but it goes to charity) and she gets to work from home once a week. The white male thing varies by department. For instance, my gf's direct report is a 38yr woman and her department is mostly made up of  younger females.

Hopefully this is a very isolated instance I am in currently then. Glad to hear this though!

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SHW+HQ+R%2526D+map1.jpg

 

BTW, take a look at the above image. Take the existing R&D site and multiply its building footprint (let's assume that Breen's building heights are optimal for SHW's research facility needs) by three. It might even be a little bit larger based on the more expansive testing site for SHW's Automotive/PCG Warrensville Hts. facilities. And it's probably going to have a lot of parking.

 

Maybe something like this...... (BTW, if they still want their tennis courts and jogging track, then perhaps the parking could be put into a two-level deck to reduce its footprint. Would also avail some room for future expansion)

 

SHW R&D map1.jpg

Edited by KJP
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57 minutes ago, seicer said:

 

The Eagle Avenue lift bridge was rehabilitated in 1991 and closed in 2004 after some structural deterioration was found. It's actually in very poor condition at this moment because of superstructure and substructure issues and will need replacement. But for the cost of a new lift bridge, is it worth it for the 7,000 AADT that used it every day? I'm not sure.

 

You may be right, but I hope the City begins a traffic study ASAP. Things might get a little nuts down there when you have 1,000 cars coming and going at the same time. 
 

I suppose there is ingress/egress to the north, south and west but they are all sh*tty two lane roads.

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On 1/10/2020 at 6:46 PM, marty15 said:

I really like the decision to put R&D there. This gives a vital anchor and catalyst to Scranton that’s really needed to jumpstart development down there. Will make a nicer view for all the future apartment dwellers that take over the Landmark building as well. Just hope it won’t be a gated complex with no street interaction.

My only concern is the traffic congestion on the Cater bridge (especially during rush hour) and other bottlenecks on the Scranton pennisula. You also have Great Lakes Brewery with its associated trucks that will be there soon. All the more reason to live and work there rather than commute from the suburbs..

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10 minutes ago, shack said:

My only concern is the traffic congestion on the Cater bridge (especially during rush hour) and other bottlenecks on the Scranton pennisula. You also have Great Lakes Brewery with its associated trucks that will be there soon. All the more reason to live and work there rather than commute from the suburbs..

 

Hold the phone on that....

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8 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Hold the phone on that....

I think that bridge lifts to let the large ships thru if i'm not mistaken which makes the situation even worse.

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On 1/10/2020 at 7:10 AM, E Rocc said:

Serious question:   On a scale from not at all to Progressive, how insular is SW's corporate culture?


I could see them building their own garage where the tech center is now, and perhaps connecting it with covered walks or skywalks much like TC is to Gateway.

 

Tunnel pedestrian bridge across the river possibly.

 

Congestion is something most people endure when they feel it necessary but they don't seek it.

 

 

 

with the expectation that scranton will be a-boomin as spinoff, and to encourage it, this is a perfect storm for a short, public private subway shuttle service from tc to scranton. 

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Not sure about a subway... BUT now IS the time for the city to get riverfront zoning in place that requires a publicly accessible boardwalk along all river fronts downtown in the same manner that Chicago requires it. With active uses and windows fronting on the boardwalk.

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On 1/10/2020 at 10:16 AM, Enginerd said:

 

You may be right, but I hope the City begins a traffic study ASAP. Things might get a little nuts down there when you have 1,000 cars coming and going at the same time. 
 

I suppose there is ingress/egress to the north, south and west but they are all sh*tty two lane roads.

 

Might be time to expand them, if there is space and the soil can handle it.

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9 hours ago, CbusTransit said:

Not sure about a subway... BUT now IS the time for the city to get riverfront zoning in place that requires a publicly accessible boardwalk along all river fronts downtown in the same manner that Chicago requires it. With active uses and windows fronting on the boardwalk.

 

I'm not so sure that last part is a good idea, at least on ground floors.   Not a lot of non-retail companies like being fishbowls.

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On 1/10/2020 at 9:22 AM, ytown2ctown said:

Hopefully this is a very isolated instance I am in currently then. Glad to hear this though!

 

So it's mixed then, with insularity to be determined.   Good guess is that some people working there will mix with the surroundings, others will not.

 

Is it a place where people head out for lunch, or is that discouraged?   The latter is increasingly the case in the business world.   That's going to make a huge difference vis a vis adjoining development.

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2 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

I'm not so sure that last part is a good idea, at least on ground floors.   Not a lot of non-retail companies like being fishbowls.

All the more reason it should be required. The last thing we need is a windowless brick wall facing the river. They will need some sort of front office, cafeteria, break room or meeting room that can be located with windows facing the river to make a boardwalk feel safe, pleasant, and open

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Just now, CbusTransit said:

All the more reason it should be required. The last thing we need is a windowless brick wall facing the river. They will need some sort of front office, cafeteria, break room or meeting room that can be located with windows facing the river to make a boardwalk feel safe, pleasant, and open

 

It's a reason it should not be required.   It could be a show stopper for some companies.   

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While a publicly accessible boardwalk may be a nice amenity, it can absolutely be a stopper for some companies that require security perimeters. It's why the R&D site has security fencing and multitudes of cameras and why some of these proposals for it to be connected are just silly.

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33 minutes ago, seicer said:

While a publicly accessible boardwalk may be a nice amenity, it can absolutely be a stopper for some companies that require security perimeters. It's why the R&D site has security fencing and multitudes of cameras and why some of these proposals for it to be connected are just silly.

 

The river is publicly accessible. If they're worried about people being close to their perimeter then they shouldn't locate alongside it. 

Edited by surfohio
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The idea that you cannot be both secure and have a boardwalk is a false trade off. The jail is downtown. The cleveland fed is downtown. Various banks are downtown. These are all places that require security and are publicly accessible.

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3 minutes ago, CbusTransit said:

The idea that you cannot be both secure and have a boardwalk is a false trade off. The jail is downtown. The cleveland fed is downtown. Various banks are downtown. These are all places that require security and are publicly accessible.

 

The US Navy has an office building along the Potomac River that is lined with a boardwalk. A public boardwalk. Someone even posted pictures of it -- I think in the SHW HQ thread.

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24 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

The US Navy has an office building along the Potomac River that is lined with a boardwalk. A public boardwalk. Someone even posted pictures of it -- I think in the SHW HQ thread.

Right. This specific topic is deja vu, all over again haha. 

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On 1/13/2020 at 1:07 PM, CbusTransit said:

The idea that you cannot be both secure and have a boardwalk is a false trade off. The jail is downtown. The cleveland fed is downtown. Various banks are downtown. These are all places that require security and are publicly accessible.

 

We're talking about windows where you can see right in, passing by.

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