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Cincinnati: Renaming McMicken Avenue

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26 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

Plus, thanks to Jeff Pastor, we won't have roads named after guys nobody remembers who might have owned slaves in the 1840s.  

 

Not "might." He DID own slaves. And he raped them. And he created a whites-only school. In a time when, not only was slavery illegal in Ohio, but the legislature had recently passed a law freeing any slave that step foot into the state. And other universities in the state were enrolling black students. So people knew slavery was bad, yet McMicken didn't care. And surely people knew rape was bad. Yet, McMicken didn't care.

 

Anyway, that's definitely a discussion for another thread. 

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1 hour ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Not "might." He DID own slaves

 

Streets and places tend to be named after wealthy people.  Most wealthy people treated people like crap.  Pastor is as shady as they come, so he'll get a street named after him some day.  

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1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Streets and places tend to be named after wealthy people.  Most wealthy people treated people like crap.  Pastor is as shady as they come, so he'll get a street named after him some day.  

 

I don't like Pastor, but I can admit when he is right. 

 

Anyway, let's get back on topic. 

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6 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

Plus, thanks to Jeff Pastor, we won't have roads named after guys nobody remembers who might have owned slaves in the 1840s.  

 

Maybe in 75 years Pastor Avenue will have a sign put up reading something along the lines of "Formerly McMicken Avenue. Renamed in 2020 because of cancel culture hysteria."  OTR might as well have mass street renaming for silly reasons once every century.

Edited by Ram23

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44 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

 

Maybe in 75 years Pastor Avenue will have a sign put up reading something along the lines of "Formerly McMicken Avenue. Renamed in 2020 because of cancel culture hysteria."  OTR might as well have mass street renaming for silly reasons once every century.

 

George Washington inherited a plantation and its slaves but has the U.S. Capitol, a state, and and two major universities named after him.  He's on the $1 bill - billions of them.  He's on Mt. Rushmore.  The White House is situated along Pennsylvania Ave. -- William Penn owned slaves but has that road along with a state named after him.  It goes on and on.  

 

Instead of going after the big dogs, the Twitter crowd picks around the edges. 

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Until social media flattened the hierarchy of voices and interconnected people with common experiences, there wasn't the possibility for disenfranchised groups of people to take action and make change in white supremacist society. If people enslaved at the time of these "honorific" namings had equal voice, these roads would not be named after the people who did not recognize the value of human life and respect the dignity of work. Their descendants and the descendants of the spirit of abolition have equal voice now and those voices are in leadership positions. 

 

TLDR; deal with it 😎

Edited by Chas Wiederhold
an extra and unnecessary "who"
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21 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

I think you're just trying to be funny, but this is misleading. Jeff Pastor has not indicated in any way that he wants McMicken to be named after himself. 

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26 minutes ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

Until social media flattened the hierarchy of voices and interconnected people with common experiences, there wasn't the possibility for disenfranchised groups of people to take action and make change in white supremacist society. If people enslaved at the time of these "honorific" namings had equal voice, these roads would not be named after the people who did not recognize the value of human life and respect the dignity of work. Their descendants and the descendants of the spirit of abolition have equal voice now and those voices are in leadership positions. 

 

TLDR; deal with it 😎

 

Charity and virtue signaling give people "moral space" to be bad:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/fieldexperiments-papers2/papers/00618.pdf

 

This goes for people who run and work for non-profits, work in the arts, are artists or musicians or writers of some type, and certainly for the finger-wagging Twitter crowd.  Many of the people who put on a great moral performance regarding events of the distant past would be the first to carry out equivalent treachery in the present. 

 

George Orwell wrote a book about Jeff Pastor back in 1934.  It's called Burmese Days.  I know they have a copy at the main library downtown; that's where I borrowed a copy 10+ years ago. 

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The ironic part about this proposed street renaming is that McMicken, particularly stretches of W. McMicken, is the last real remaining example of "rough" OTR. I take W. McMicken every day of the week to get from my home to OTR/downtown, and it's still riddled with drug users, dealers, prostitutes, and other various vagrants. Not to mention the litter and general state of disrepair. There are serious problems with stretches of this street.

 

Maybe the city can put those prostitution barricades back up for a few months before they bring out the cameras for the renaming ceremony? They may as well compound the silliness.

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I don't use science and math to inform my systems of morality because I just find it too hard to sub in all the variable for the equations in the report to make sure my decisions align with my outward expression of virtue. I find reading Wendell Berry, Toni Morison, Thomas Merton, and Mary Oliver to be far more insightful.

 

But for those who do have the time and like to reduce their gut and heart to mathematics, here's the theoretical framework found in the paper.

 

U(X, W, CSR) = W − G(X, CSR) + B(X) + A(W, CSR) × (−X)

• dX dCSR > 0 → ∂ ∂CSR ( ∂G ∂X ) + ∂A ∂CSR < 0

• dX dCSR < 0 → ∂ ∂CSR ( ∂G ∂X ) + ∂A ∂CSR > 0

• dX dCSR = 0 → ∂ ∂CSR ( ∂G ∂X ) + ∂A ∂CSR = 0

 

Good luck! I tried the math, and it still came up with "no one deserves civic honor in perpetuity"...  I'm probably just doing the math wrong.

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13 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

George Washington inherited a plantation and its slaves but has the U.S. Capitol, a state, and and two major universities named after him.  He's on the $1 bill - billions of them.  He's on Mt. Rushmore.  The White House is situated along Pennsylvania Ave. -- William Penn owned slaves but has that road along with a state named after him.  It goes on and on.  

 

Instead of going after the big dogs, the Twitter crowd picks around the edges. 

 

And there are exhibits in DC and Philadelphia describing the horrendous institution of slavery and how both George Washington and William Penn contributed to it. You can visit the original President's House right next to the Liberty Bell to see the names of Washington's slaves and how they lived. It's a wonderful honor to them and a great example of how to put historical events into context. Rather than presenting Washington as a deific individual above criticism, it humanizes him and educates about his many failings despite his heroic efforts.

 

It's possible that we should recognize nuance in this. Charles McMicken is still going to have a building named after him, albeit with context just as we've given Washington and Penn. It's also possible that we can recognize that Washington and Penn contributed to the horrible institution of slavery but also had great achievements that merit them still being honored in ways that Charles McMicken did not earn? It's possible that Oscar Robertson, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Levi Coffin, or Sarah Mayrant Fossett would be better choices for the street to be named after.

 

It's funny that opponents of renaming things scream about how the crazy liberals are painting things with a broad brush but the people advocating for renaming are doing no such thing. It's actually the opponents of renaming that are putting forward these ideas as straw men. 

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23 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

Harriet Beecher Stowe

 

There is already a Beecher St.  

 

Uncle Tom's Cabin is a phenomenal literary work not only because it is expertly written (the spoken dialogue is remarkable), but because it wades deeply into the complexity of slavery, both from the perspective of the masters and the slaves.  For starters, it has "good" slaveowners and "bad" slaves.  The book illustrates exactly what Barack Obama noted the "woke" crowd is oblivious to.  And, predictably, the Twitter know-it-alls turned on him.  

 

The fact is that McMicken is a very, very minor figure in the American story.  So great job everybody on cancelling somebody who nobody remembered!  

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^Why are you so offended by this? If no one should care about someone's character who "nobody remembered", why do you care so much that they are removing his name from the street?

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I think Brewer's Boulevard sounds a little too Disney-esque. It doesn't sound like a real street, and I think works better as a nickname.

 

I was thinking about this for a while last week, and came up with Keller Street.

Keller means basement, or cellar in German. It works on two fronts - there are literal lagering cellars lining the street from old breweries, and it is also the bottom of the hill leading to uptown. And it sounds like an appropriate name for a street.

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Since the street name is actually McMicken Avenue, should this thread be renamed? 🤣

 

Also, why not consider John McMicken as a name since he was McMicken's son, lived a somewhat prosperous life in the area, and ran a school for African Americans.

 

Sources:

https://handeaux.tumblr.com/post/156931637912/charles-mcmickens-secret-his-african-american 

and 

https://books.google.com/books?id=0_acDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA288&lpg=PA288&dq=owen+t+b+nickens+academy+cincinnati&source=bl&ots=00TaAvDQxk&sig=ACfU3U105cSfORghc71kDwudsdResJNaqw&hl=en&ppis=_c&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjGl6yrpc7mAhWIQs0KHWIrCyIQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=nickens&f=false

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Are we leading down the path of the WWI era anti-german hysteria where every street with a hint of german was renamed to something more American? 

 

Also, I wonder in the future if/when the Lindner family's skeletons fall out of the closet, will the city try to scrub their name off of half the city?

Edited by RealAdamP

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Honestly I'd be fine with getting rid of the Lindners from everything. Carl was a skeevy warmongering drug lord! 


“To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”

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33 minutes ago, RealAdamP said:

Are we leading down the path of the WWI era anti-german hysteria where every street with a hint of german was renamed to something more American?

 

That's kind of what it feels like to me.  As others have pointed out, if we try to expunge McMicken, why not all the founding fathers, Columbus, etc.?  He's just an easy target because he's a relatively unknown local guy.  But that similar anti-German hysteria also meant that one Mr. Mueller couldn't name the street in his own subdivision after his own family name.  That's some serious WTF stuff there.  He got around it by naming the street Relleum Avenue instead, Mueller spelled backwards.  

 

Anyway,  this isn't like all the Confederate statues, most of which were made in the early 20th century as Jim Crow laws ramped up.  If a street was named McMicken as a modern pro-slavery resurgence movement, or by removing an abolitionist street name, then I think it would be a different story.  As it is, I'm not in favor especially since McMicken is such a long street.  I don't like that most of Eastern Avenue was renamed to Riverside Drive, nor that Winton Place was renamed to Spring Grove Village.  It's all kind of kitschy and cutsey-ifying. 

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oh geez, is this serious?

 

they could add an honorific to a street sign or something without renaming it though.

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Motion to change McMicken Avenue’s name could get a vote

 

A motion by Cincinnati Councilman Jeff Pastor to direct the city administration to figure out alternative names for McMicken Avenue could get a vote as soon as Monday in council’s Neighborhoods Committee.

 

Pastor filed a motion on Dec. 17 asking that the administration get public input and determine the feasibility of the name change.

 

The councilman said his motion is related to the University of Cincinnati’s decision in December to take McMicken’s name off of its largest college because of his slaveowning past. The university left his name on McMicken Hall, McMicken Circle, McMicken Commons and the “Mick and Mack” statutes and restaurant.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/01/03/motion-to-change-mcmicken-avenue-s-name-could-get.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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On 12/20/2019 at 2:24 PM, ryanlammi said:

^Why are you so offended by this? If no one should care about someone's character who "nobody remembered", why do you care so much that they are removing his name from the street?

 

When are Indian-Americans going to demand the renaming of Indiana?  It's only 15 miles away from the perfidious McMicken St., but way, way bigger.  McMicken is just one street.  But Indiana has like one thousandiana streets.  Plus a capitol city names Indianapolis.  Plus a dude named Tom Raper

 

McMicken St. isn't even in the top 1,000 most egregious place-namings in the United States.  Instead it's peanut politics by our fake Navy hero, Jeff Pastor.  Dude didn't complete basic training but he had the temerity to put his single Navy dress portrait on billboards paid for by his rich white benefactor.  Are we absolutely certain that his rich white benefactor didn't inherit any money from the slave era?  Are the OU Trustees going to launch an investigation?  Or are we all just completely cool that Pastor's rich white benefactor used Pastor to buy the black vote with those $25,000 checks back during his dirty campaign? 

 

Here we have Pastor positing himself as some sort of race hero, when he's a neon Uncle Tom.  He's setting a trap.   

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On 12/20/2019 at 2:24 PM, ryanlammi said:

^Why are you so offended by this? If no one should care about someone's character who "nobody remembered", why do you care so much that they are removing his name from the street?

 

I would argue that the name of the street in this case is more important than who it's named after.  The street-name is a bigger part of the city's history than the person-name it came from.  If that makes sense.  

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Why councilman says McMicken Street should be renamed (and its connection to business)

 

Cincinnati Councilman Jeff Pastor has heard the criticism about his proposal to ask the city administration to look at renaming McMicken Street, following in the footsteps of the University of Cincinnati, which removed slaveowner Charles McMicken’s name from its College of Arts and Sciences.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/01/06/why-councilman-says-mcmicken-street-should-be.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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On 1/4/2020 at 4:50 AM, jmecklenborg said:

 

When are Indian-Americans going to demand the renaming of Indiana?  It's only 15 miles away from the perfidious McMicken St., but way, way bigger.  McMicken is just one street.  But Indiana has like one thousandiana streets.  Plus a capitol city names Indianapolis.  Plus a dude named Tom Raper

 

  

 

Tom Raper sold out to Camping World probably 10 years ago. That's why the ads stopped.

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13 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

 

Tom Raper sold out to Camping World probably 10 years ago. That's why the ads stopped.

 

Is the Strawberry Bitch still up in Dayton?  Racist toward gingers.  Must Cancel.  Pronto.  

 

 

b24-liberator-strawberry-bitch.jpg

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