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Cleveland: Ohio City: Market Square / Harbor Bay development

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I believe the response to this is from the post above from KJP.  The buildings do not exist, hence to tax income.  Build the buildings, increase land value, add income tax from new employers, add increased tax from new people living in the area.  If this project is not built it is a negative for the area and Cleveland as a whole. If someones feelings are hurt because developer found another route then the said person needs to not be so thinned skinned. 

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A lot of the disagreement in this thread is between doing whatever it takes to get this awesome project done vs possible unintended long term consequences.  I wonder if there's the same sort of split between McCormack and other city leaders. 

 

[And the idea that the city is objecting because its "feelings are hurt" is annoyingly obtuse.] 

Edited by StapHanger
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"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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2 minutes ago, yanni_gogolak said:

How integral is that to the completion of the project? Meaning, if they don't get a tax abatement will they kill it?

They’ll get a tax abatement. The issues are the duration and who is granting the abatement. 

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23 minutes ago, bumsquare said:

They’ll get a tax abatement. The issues are the duration and who is granting the abatement. 

 

Harbor Bay has to get their suppliers and contractors to lock in prices for a few months longer. If they can't and prices go up too much for them, then this project will be in danger.

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7 minutes ago, gg707 said:

Market Square did not appear on the agenda at the September OAQDA meeting:  https://ohioairquality.ohio.gov/Portals/0/OAQDA September Meeting Information.pdf

 

Are they still having discussions with the City around a potential resolution?

 

I haven't gotten any response from Harbor Bay reps in a couple of weeks, despite several inquiries including one last night after I saw the meeting agenda. They're usually pretty responsive.

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Thanks for the update.  The lack of progress with the City is unfortunate.  I wonder if them accepting the city's abatement, and waiving the OAQDA abatement would make things work.  That cuts 15 years off of the abatement, but would let them keep the financing from the state.

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1 minute ago, gg707 said:

Thanks for the update.  The lack of progress with the City is unfortunate.  I wonder if them accepting the city's abatement, and waiving the OAQDA abatement would make things work.  That cuts 15 years off of the abatement, but would let them keep the financing from the state.

 

Project Director Dan Whalen told me that Harbor Bay might be willing to accept a 20-year abatement. Perhaps they'd be willing to accept 15?

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20 minutes ago, gg707 said:

Thanks for the update.  The lack of progress with the City is unfortunate.  I wonder if them accepting the city's abatement, and waiving the OAQDA abatement would make things work.  That cuts 15 years off of the abatement, but would let them keep the financing from the state.

 

The typical city abatement wouldn't cover the commercial portion.  For that, they'll need to do a TIF and there will have to be some sort of arrangement with the schools (e.g., the city makes the schools whole from income tax collections).  The exemption under the OAQDA and the stuff the city does are pretty different even besides the duration.

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On 8/19/2019 at 5:31 PM, KJP said:

Two more are coming at the end of the month, the Boost Mobile and Fantasy Nails. Boost Mobile is closing. Fantasy Nails is moving to Detroit and West 28th.

 

Soon, there will be only two left. And if the retail plaza stays mostly empty for a long time, they will likely leave too. Ohio City doesn't need a dead zone at this very important intersection, especially with some of the tenant departures at West Side Market. Several other developments nearby (Carnegie, Voss, etc) are depending on this project. If it is delayed, it dies, and so will other nearby planned developments.

I asked someone at the S-W store recently about their closing and she just said she knows nothing and "corporate" handles it....

Edited by lafont

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Here's the first of two articles I had planned to write today (I hadn't planned to write the SHW HQ article!)....

Market+Square-1.jpg

 

THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 2019

$175 million Market Square development gets new life

 

Like a tree at risk of getting chopped down, a $175 million development in the heart of Cleveland's Ohio City neighborhood was in danger of being felled. But instead of hearing the cry "Timber!" Clevelanders should soon see a new plan released for the construction of buildings here.

The large mixed-use development combining residential, retail and offices in two connected, uniquely timber-framed buildings at Lorain Avenue and West 25th Street was in danger of being axed by an impasse between the city and Chicago-based developer Harbor Bay Real Estate Advisors.
 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/09/175-million-market-square-development.html

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9 minutes ago, KJP said:

Here's the first of two articles I had planned to write today (I hadn't planned to write the SHW HQ article!)....

Market+Square-1.jpg

 

THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 2019

$175 million Market Square development gets new life

 

Like a tree at risk of getting chopped down, a $175 million development in the heart of Cleveland's Ohio City neighborhood was in danger of being felled. But instead of hearing the cry "Timber!" Clevelanders should soon see a new plan released for the construction of buildings here.

The large mixed-use development combining residential, retail and offices in two connected, uniquely timber-framed buildings at Lorain Avenue and West 25th Street was in danger of being axed by an impasse between the city and Chicago-based developer Harbor Bay Real Estate Advisors.
 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/09/175-million-market-square-development.html

Fingers crossed the design doesn't change too drastically. Excited to hear what tenants they have planned.

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Others have alluded to this, but this bit from the developer in KJP's blog post is extremely interesting:

 

Whalen also noted that all of Market Square's office and retail tenants will be new to Greater Cleveland, bringing more than 1,000 jobs and nearly $11.8 million per year in new sales and incomes taxes to the city and county.

 

Have we already speculated what exact this means re. office tenants? Do they already have a large user lined up from out of town?

Edited by StapHanger
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19 minutes ago, ASPhotoman said:

Fingers crossed the design doesn't change too drastically. Excited to hear what tenants they have planned.

 

So I've heard through the grape vine that the development wanted the Lululemon, Apple, Shinola, etc. sort of retail - if that's true I think that's terrific

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Glad its still planned to happen, even with this hiccup. I hope the redesign sticks close to this design. I really love the modern yet Cleveland-classic look it has.

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This is great news indeed and this part is particularly good:  "Whalen also noted that all of Market Square's office and retail tenants will be new to Greater Cleveland, bringing more than 1,000 jobs and nearly $11.8 million per year in new sales and incomes taxes to the city and county."  And it looks like it will start work soon as they have to commit to construction contracts before the end of Sept.

 

If they know that all of the office and retail tenants are new to Cleveland, they must then know who they are, meaning leases for 100% of these spaces are already signed, no?

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6 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

So I've heard through the grape vine that the development wanted the Lululemon, Apple, Shinola, etc. sort of retail - if that's true I think that's terrific

That would be AMAZING. That would be great for the neighborhood and would give a jolt to Cleveland retail, especially if they land an Apple store

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1 hour ago, Pugu said:

 

If they know that all of the office and retail tenants are new to Cleveland, they must then know who they are, meaning leases for 100% of these spaces are already signed, no?

 

Or at least identified by letters of intent, since some retailers will wait to see what the mix will be before signing an actual lease.

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This project will also positively impact foot traffic at Westside Market, a real Cleveland gem. I have fond memories of my Saturday morning trips there from my Lakewood condo.

Edited by Frmr CLEder

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3 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

This project will also positivel impact foot traffic at Westside Market, a real Cleveland gem. I have fond memories of my Saturday morning trips there from my Lakewood condo.

 Agreed 100%

 

my grandparents are under the impression that it’s going to destroy the market for some reason... but ay... whatever

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7 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 Agreed 100%

 

my grandparents are under the impression that it’s going to destroy the market for some reason... but ay... whatever

 

Ya, because those hipster millennials hate farmers markets... 😬

 

Now that I think about it, Apple stores and fresh produce may possibly be the millennial equivalent combination as coffee and creamer are to the rest of humanity. 

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This project is 70% bid already. It can’t change TOO much unless he puts it out for re-bid, which doesn’t sound like he wants to do.

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5 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

This project will also positivel impact foot traffic at Westside Market, a real Cleveland gem. I have fond memories of my Saturday morning trips there from my Lakewood condo.

 

I really hope the city puts an actual market manager in charge of managing the market. Despite this new development, I have serious doubts that the current market leadership (on the city side) will know how to capitalize on this. Here's to hoping though!

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6 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

This project will also positivel impact foot traffic at Westside Market, a real Cleveland gem. I have fond memories of my Saturday morning trips there from my Lakewood condo.

In my mind this project will change the built environment of the city for a half mile in all four directions.  Like many on the board it is one of my favorites and loving  that it has seemed to progress so rapidly (relatively speaking when comparing it to other projects)

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33 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

In my mind this project will change the built environment of the city for a half mile in all four directions.  Like many on the board it is one of my favorites and loving  that it has seemed to progress so rapidly (relatively speaking when comparing it to other projects)

 

Well said. Two nearby projects are within weeks of having site control, after which I'd be happy to identify them. But suffice it say, the main corridors past the Market Square project will probably lost their vacant lots to something with a decent street presence in a few years.

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All empty lots in/near Ohio City are endangered.

Edited by KJP
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3 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 Agreed 100%

 

my grandparents are under the impression that it’s going to destroy the market for some reason... but ay... whatever

 

The root of that sentiment is often related to parking. The same arguments are being used to predict the fall of the North Market in Columbus as the area parking lots disappear. 'It will never survive without blocks of parking nearby!'

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16 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

So does that mean you’ll start your own paper like the KJPost

 

I already have. 😄

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"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

What's the deal with the article making it sound like no progress was made with the city?  Very different tone than the conversations you had with the developer.

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26 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

 

What's objectionable about the article?

 

What gg707 said.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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I thought it was a decent article. Could have used more detail about how the subsidies compare and how Harbor Bay is proceeding. Too many throwaway lines that would have been a good time to expand.

Edited by Mendo

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