Metz44 Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 10 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said: Does the State even talk to the City? It seems absolutely ridiculous that the state would offer anything before talking to the city. OADQA won't approve the financing without city approval. This is such a clear case of overstep that the city can just threaten a lawsuit. Everyone knows how the case would play out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frmr CLEder Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Metz44 said: OADQA won't approve the financing without city approval. This is such a clear case of overstep that the city can just threaten a lawsuit. Everyone knows how the case would play out. "Won't" approve or "shouldn't" approve. Where's the communication breakdown? Edited August 29, 2019 by Frmr CLEder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inlovewithCLE Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 (edited) I’m a big supporter of this project. It’s very important that it happens, but I see the city’s perspective. I don’t even think their big issue is this particular project. It’s the fact that if they let this developer get this one off, whats stopping the next developer and the next one and the next one from doing the same damn thing? It sets a precedent. I’m a firm believer of giving projects whatever they need to make it happen. I understand that subsidies and abatements are critical in making the developments that we want a reality in the city. But I think the city should be firmly in charge of that process unless they work WITH the state to make that kind of abatement happen. Letting this developer get away with doing an end run around the city (especially when all accounts are that the city was supportive of the project) sets a bad precedent. Edited August 29, 2019 by inlovewithCLE 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Htsguy Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said: "Won't" approve or "shouldn't" approve. Where's the communication breakdown? Obviously some sort of communication breakdown. According to @KJP blog the ward councilman had sent a letter of support (among others) but the administration apparently did not even know the hearing was going forward until just before it happen. Very strange or somebody was dropping the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumsquare Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 If the developer is willing to take less than 30 years why didn’t they just take the city’s standard 15 year abatement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendo Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 21 minutes ago, KJP said: If the city didn't want another vacant lot, let alone across street from the West Side Market, then why shouldn't it check to see if financing is in place first? Financing is usually contingent on the developer getting city approval, like certs of appropriateness and demo permits, not the other way around. Besides that, financing falls apart all the time. Nothing is official until loans are closed and that won't happen until a few weeks before ground breaking long after demo permits have been issued. Quote Abatements are often awarded for commercial projects. For example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marty15 Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 If this gets approved, watch Stark scramble to OADQA with a timber framed NuCLEus. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumsquare Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 3 minutes ago, marty15 said: If this gets approved, watch Stark scramble to OADQA with a timber framed NuCLEus. Slightly revised as a 4 bedroom duplex with a hot dog stand on the sidewalk 1 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YABO713 Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 12 minutes ago, bumsquare said: Slightly revised as a 4 bedroom duplex with a hot dog stand on the sidewalk I see it as a three story boutique motel with a BW3 on the corner 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freethink Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 HaHa you gotta know Stark is on his way to Home Depot/Menard's as we speak. He is in line at the service desk with new renderings in hand looking for tax breaks on bulk Timber... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted August 29, 2019 Author Share Posted August 29, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Mendo said: Financing is usually contingent on the developer getting city approval, like certs of appropriateness and demo permits, not the other way around. Besides that, financing falls apart all the time. Nothing is official until loans are closed and that won't happen until a few weeks before ground breaking long after demo permits have been issued. For example? NuCLEus. Flats East Bank and while, not an abatement, the Hilton hotel doesn't pay any real estate taxes (building AND land) because it is a county-owned building. 49 minutes ago, marty15 said: If this gets approved, watch Stark scramble to OADQA with a timber framed NuCLEus. As well they should. Hopefully with a 15-year state tax exemption and a TIF to give some income tax to the schools/metroparks/etc. Set the bar with Market Square. Other applicants will then follow. No big project can happen in low-rent/high-cost Cleveland without tax abatement and other public incentives. The city needs to look at this from 30,000 feet, not from 601 Lakeside Ave. BTW -- yes, the developer and the state needed to do a better job of developing a consensus before the Aug. 13 OAQDA meeting. Since then, the developer has had productive discussions with all parties EXCEPT the city which is clinging to its narrow "only we should be allowed to grant tax abatements." Yes, the city's support should be secured first. But who cares who ultimately does the abating?? Edited August 29, 2019 by KJP 6 1 “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendo Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 Just now, KJP said: NuCLEus. Flats East Bank and while, not an abatement, the Hilton hotel doesn't pay any real estate taxes (building AND land) because it is a county-owned building. No. NuCLEus and FEB didn't get a 100% abatement for the commercial parts of the development. Stark asked for a TIF for the full amount of the non-residential portion and was denied. What he got was the "standard" TIF which excludes the share that goes to CMSD. What Harbor Bay requested was unprecedented and the city was smart to step in. If they negotiate something more inline with the typical subsidy, fine at least they aren't continually moving the bar. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted August 29, 2019 Author Share Posted August 29, 2019 (edited) I recall that numerous projects over the years to attract employers to Cleveland involved tax abatements. And if these aren't including downtown, then no wonder we have so little new construction downtown. It's easily the most expensive development type and location in the region. If the city isn't doing this, then it's probably time the city revisit this policy. We have so much catching up to with our peer cities, let alone the likes of Chicago, New York, etc. The city needs to change or this project, Voss rehab, Carnegie TOD, and at least two unannounced projects on West 25th are all dead. Edited August 29, 2019 by KJP 2 “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumsquare Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 1 hour ago, YABO713 said: I see it as a three story boutique motel with a BW3 on the corner Hmmmm seems ambitious I’d like to see a render 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StapHanger Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 1 hour ago, KJP said: BTW -- yes, the developer and the state needed to do a better job of developing a consensus before the Aug. 13 OAQDA meeting. Since then, the developer has had productive discussions with all parties EXCEPT the city which is clinging to its narrow "only we should be allowed to grant tax abatements." Yes, the city's support should be secured first. But who cares who ultimately does the abating?? Would you support a state law that aimed to reinvigorate City of Cleveland retail by making all sales exempt from RTA's sales tax? Should the state have the power to pass such a law? There are big questions at stake here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted August 29, 2019 Author Share Posted August 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, StapHanger said: Would you support a state law that aimed to reinvigorate City of Cleveland retail by making all sales exempt from RTA's sales tax? Should the state have the power to pass such a law? There are big questions at stake here. No one is taking any property tax revenues away from anyone. These buildings do not exist. 4 1 “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Htsguy Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 I am curious about Kerry McCormack's (a fan favorite on this forum) position regarding the state financing. According to @KJP he sent a letter in support to the board (along with many others in prominent positions). In doing so is he in favor of the loss of local control and/or the length of the tax abatement (which seems to be a of concern many here) or was he simply ill informed (and/or did not do his homework). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G00pie Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 I believe the response to this is from the post above from KJP. The buildings do not exist, hence to tax income. Build the buildings, increase land value, add income tax from new employers, add increased tax from new people living in the area. If this project is not built it is a negative for the area and Cleveland as a whole. If someones feelings are hurt because developer found another route then the said person needs to not be so thinned skinned. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StapHanger Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 (edited) A lot of the disagreement in this thread is between doing whatever it takes to get this awesome project done vs possible unintended long term consequences. I wonder if there's the same sort of split between McCormack and other city leaders. [And the idea that the city is objecting because its "feelings are hurt" is annoyingly obtuse.] Edited August 29, 2019 by StapHanger 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstuski Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 This article sheds a little light on the city's point of view on this project, gave me a bit of an 'ah, I get it' moment. https://www.cleveland.com/open/2019/08/two-developments-this-week-seen-as-state-government-assault-on-ohio-cities.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted August 30, 2019 Author Share Posted August 30, 2019 “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanni_gogolak Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 How integral is that to the completion of the project? Meaning, if they don't get a tax abatement will they kill it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumsquare Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, yanni_gogolak said: How integral is that to the completion of the project? Meaning, if they don't get a tax abatement will they kill it? They’ll get a tax abatement. The issues are the duration and who is granting the abatement. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted August 30, 2019 Author Share Posted August 30, 2019 23 minutes ago, bumsquare said: They’ll get a tax abatement. The issues are the duration and who is granting the abatement. Harbor Bay has to get their suppliers and contractors to lock in prices for a few months longer. If they can't and prices go up too much for them, then this project will be in danger. 2 “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gg707 Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Market Square did not appear on the agenda at the September OAQDA meeting: https://ohioairquality.ohio.gov/Portals/0/OAQDA September Meeting Information.pdf Are they still having discussions with the City around a potential resolution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted September 10, 2019 Author Share Posted September 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, gg707 said: Market Square did not appear on the agenda at the September OAQDA meeting: https://ohioairquality.ohio.gov/Portals/0/OAQDA September Meeting Information.pdf Are they still having discussions with the City around a potential resolution? I haven't gotten any response from Harbor Bay reps in a couple of weeks, despite several inquiries including one last night after I saw the meeting agenda. They're usually pretty responsive. 1 “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gg707 Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Thanks for the update. The lack of progress with the City is unfortunate. I wonder if them accepting the city's abatement, and waiving the OAQDA abatement would make things work. That cuts 15 years off of the abatement, but would let them keep the financing from the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted September 10, 2019 Author Share Posted September 10, 2019 1 minute ago, gg707 said: Thanks for the update. The lack of progress with the City is unfortunate. I wonder if them accepting the city's abatement, and waiving the OAQDA abatement would make things work. That cuts 15 years off of the abatement, but would let them keep the financing from the state. Project Director Dan Whalen told me that Harbor Bay might be willing to accept a 20-year abatement. Perhaps they'd be willing to accept 15? 1 “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StapHanger Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 20 minutes ago, gg707 said: Thanks for the update. The lack of progress with the City is unfortunate. I wonder if them accepting the city's abatement, and waiving the OAQDA abatement would make things work. That cuts 15 years off of the abatement, but would let them keep the financing from the state. The typical city abatement wouldn't cover the commercial portion. For that, they'll need to do a TIF and there will have to be some sort of arrangement with the schools (e.g., the city makes the schools whole from income tax collections). The exemption under the OAQDA and the stuff the city does are pretty different even besides the duration. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lafont Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 (edited) On 8/19/2019 at 5:31 PM, KJP said: Two more are coming at the end of the month, the Boost Mobile and Fantasy Nails. Boost Mobile is closing. Fantasy Nails is moving to Detroit and West 28th. Soon, there will be only two left. And if the retail plaza stays mostly empty for a long time, they will likely leave too. Ohio City doesn't need a dead zone at this very important intersection, especially with some of the tenant departures at West Side Market. Several other developments nearby (Carnegie, Voss, etc) are depending on this project. If it is delayed, it dies, and so will other nearby planned developments. I asked someone at the S-W store recently about their closing and she just said she knows nothing and "corporate" handles it.... Edited September 12, 2019 by lafont Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 Here's the first of two articles I had planned to write today (I hadn't planned to write the SHW HQ article!).... THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 2019 $175 million Market Square development gets new life Like a tree at risk of getting chopped down, a $175 million development in the heart of Cleveland's Ohio City neighborhood was in danger of being felled. But instead of hearing the cry "Timber!" Clevelanders should soon see a new plan released for the construction of buildings here. The large mixed-use development combining residential, retail and offices in two connected, uniquely timber-framed buildings at Lorain Avenue and West 25th Street was in danger of being axed by an impasse between the city and Chicago-based developer Harbor Bay Real Estate Advisors. MORE: https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/09/175-million-market-square-development.html 3 2 “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASPhotoman Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, KJP said: Here's the first of two articles I had planned to write today (I hadn't planned to write the SHW HQ article!).... THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 2019 $175 million Market Square development gets new life Like a tree at risk of getting chopped down, a $175 million development in the heart of Cleveland's Ohio City neighborhood was in danger of being felled. But instead of hearing the cry "Timber!" Clevelanders should soon see a new plan released for the construction of buildings here. The large mixed-use development combining residential, retail and offices in two connected, uniquely timber-framed buildings at Lorain Avenue and West 25th Street was in danger of being axed by an impasse between the city and Chicago-based developer Harbor Bay Real Estate Advisors. MORE: https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/09/175-million-market-square-development.html Fingers crossed the design doesn't change too drastically. Excited to hear what tenants they have planned. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StapHanger Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 (edited) Others have alluded to this, but this bit from the developer in KJP's blog post is extremely interesting: Whalen also noted that all of Market Square's office and retail tenants will be new to Greater Cleveland, bringing more than 1,000 jobs and nearly $11.8 million per year in new sales and incomes taxes to the city and county. Have we already speculated what exact this means re. office tenants? Do they already have a large user lined up from out of town? Edited September 12, 2019 by StapHanger 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YABO713 Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 19 minutes ago, ASPhotoman said: Fingers crossed the design doesn't change too drastically. Excited to hear what tenants they have planned. So I've heard through the grape vine that the development wanted the Lululemon, Apple, Shinola, etc. sort of retail - if that's true I think that's terrific 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoshSteve Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Glad its still planned to happen, even with this hiccup. I hope the redesign sticks close to this design. I really love the modern yet Cleveland-classic look it has. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplythis Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Awesome news. I am happy that this appears that it will happen. Bring us some new news on nucleus. Last week-ends news on nucleus left a bad taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugu Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 This is great news indeed and this part is particularly good: "Whalen also noted that all of Market Square's office and retail tenants will be new to Greater Cleveland, bringing more than 1,000 jobs and nearly $11.8 million per year in new sales and incomes taxes to the city and county." And it looks like it will start work soon as they have to commit to construction contracts before the end of Sept. If they know that all of the office and retail tenants are new to Cleveland, they must then know who they are, meaning leases for 100% of these spaces are already signed, no? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inlovewithCLE Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 6 hours ago, YABO713 said: So I've heard through the grape vine that the development wanted the Lululemon, Apple, Shinola, etc. sort of retail - if that's true I think that's terrific That would be AMAZING. That would be great for the neighborhood and would give a jolt to Cleveland retail, especially if they land an Apple store 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Pugu said: If they know that all of the office and retail tenants are new to Cleveland, they must then know who they are, meaning leases for 100% of these spaces are already signed, no? Or at least identified by letters of intent, since some retailers will wait to see what the mix will be before signing an actual lease. 1 “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frmr CLEder Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 (edited) This project will also positively impact foot traffic at Westside Market, a real Cleveland gem. I have fond memories of my Saturday morning trips there from my Lakewood condo. Edited September 13, 2019 by Frmr CLEder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YABO713 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 3 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said: This project will also positivel impact foot traffic at Westside Market, a real Cleveland gem. I have fond memories of my Saturday morning trips there from my Lakewood condo. Agreed 100% my grandparents are under the impression that it’s going to destroy the market for some reason... but ay... whatever 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevecane Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, YABO713 said: Agreed 100% my grandparents are under the impression that it’s going to destroy the market for some reason... but ay... whatever Ya, because those hipster millennials hate farmers markets... Now that I think about it, Apple stores and fresh produce may possibly be the millennial equivalent combination as coffee and creamer are to the rest of humanity. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marty15 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 This project is 70% bid already. It can’t change TOO much unless he puts it out for re-bid, which doesn’t sound like he wants to do. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GISguy Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 5 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said: This project will also positivel impact foot traffic at Westside Market, a real Cleveland gem. I have fond memories of my Saturday morning trips there from my Lakewood condo. I really hope the city puts an actual market manager in charge of managing the market. Despite this new development, I have serious doubts that the current market leadership (on the city side) will know how to capitalize on this. Here's to hoping though! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Htsguy Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 6 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said: This project will also positivel impact foot traffic at Westside Market, a real Cleveland gem. I have fond memories of my Saturday morning trips there from my Lakewood condo. In my mind this project will change the built environment of the city for a half mile in all four directions. Like many on the board it is one of my favorites and loving that it has seemed to progress so rapidly (relatively speaking when comparing it to other projects) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 33 minutes ago, Htsguy said: In my mind this project will change the built environment of the city for a half mile in all four directions. Like many on the board it is one of my favorites and loving that it has seemed to progress so rapidly (relatively speaking when comparing it to other projects) Well said. Two nearby projects are within weeks of having site control, after which I'd be happy to identify them. But suffice it say, the main corridors past the Market Square project will probably lost their vacant lots to something with a decent street presence in a few years. 2 1 “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadmen Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 The empty lots heading north or the empty lots heading east? Love to see all of them built on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 (edited) All empty lots in/near Ohio City are endangered. Edited September 13, 2019 by KJP 9 “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTCL11 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 3 hours ago, YABO713 said: Agreed 100% my grandparents are under the impression that it’s going to destroy the market for some reason... but ay... whatever The root of that sentiment is often related to parking. The same arguments are being used to predict the fall of the North Market in Columbus as the area parking lots disappear. 'It will never survive without blocks of parking nearby!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barneyboy Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 1 hour ago, DTCL11 said: 'It will never survive without blocks of parking nearby!' "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded." - Yogi Barra 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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