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Cleveland: Ohio City: INTRO (Market Square / Harbor Bay Development)

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@Htsguy I think the reporter is confusing Market Square with the proposed TOD being pursued by Carnegie.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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It's going to be really something watching these go up! 

 

And I'm super confident BOTH will go up.....even though naming something "phase II" seems like a kiss of death around NEO hahaha.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, KJP said:

@Htsguy I think the reporter is confusing Market Square with the proposed TOD being pursued by Carnegie.

Well then strike two.  It is like reading the New York Times.  Not.

Edited by Htsguy

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1 hour ago, Htsguy said:

Well then strike two.  It is like reading the New York Times.  Not.


@KJP @Htsguy I’m reluctant to criticize a professional without knowing them personally, but based on a lot of his work over the past 6+ months I think it’s fair to say that Robert Higgs...leaves a lot to be desired. 
 

I didn’t even react to the “struggling” label or his assertion that phase II will connect directly to the Rapid station because I was too distracted by him describing Market Square as being built in the 1970s. It’s inarguable that Market Square is mid-‘80s era, right?!

 

I won’t even raise a blatant error he made in his description of the Tinnerman Lofts project because it’s admittedly a bit of a personal pet peeve and ultimately insignificant to the overall story. However, it’s a lazy mistake and it’s a shame that we can’t expect more from our journalists these days. 

 

The lack of professional pride is sometimes astounding. 
 

/rant

Edited by brtshrcegr
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7 hours ago, MuRrAy HiLL said:

So it begins...next month:

 

Cleveland City Council OKs tax incentives for two Ohio City development projects

Today 7:23 PM

By Robert Higgs, cleveland.com

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – City Council gave final approval Monday to tax incentives sought by developers to help convert underused property on Cleveland’s West Side into new housing.

 

One project, Market Square, would involve razing the struggling Market Plaza built in the 1970s across Lorain Avenue from the West Side Market. Harbor Bay Real Estate Advisors plans to replace it with about 300 market-rate apartments and about 40,000 square feet of retail space.

 

Demolition and construction could begin as soon as March, the company has said.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2020/02/cleveland-city-council-oks-tax-incentives-for-two-ohio-city-development-projects.html

Depending on the success of the Beachwood Place location, I feel this would be the perfect location for an H&M home due to all the new and recently completed construction.

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6 hours ago, brtshrcegr said:


@KJP @Htsguy I’m reluctant to criticize a professional without knowing them personally, but based on a lot of his work over the past 6+ months I think it’s fair to say that Robert Higgs...leaves a lot to be desired. 
 

I didn’t even react to the “struggling” label or his assertion that phase II will connect directly to the Rapid station because I was too distracted by him describing Market Square as being built in the 1970s. It’s inarguable that Market Square is mid-‘80s era, right?!

 

I won’t even raise a blatant error he made in his description of the Tinnerman Lofts project because it’s admittedly a bit of a personal pet peeve and ultimately insignificant to the overall story. However, it’s a lazy mistake and it’s a shame that we can’t expect more from our journalists these days. 

 

The lack of professional pride is sometimes astounding. 
 

/rant

 

I noticed all the Market Square mistakes when I read the article, but what was the Tinnerman Lofts description mistake?

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The article's description of the tax deal was also confusing.  In the first breath,  it stated that Council passed a 30-year TIF.  Then, a few paragraphs down, it stated that it was actually a 15-year tax abatement and then 15 more years of a $4M TIF.  I know these things are complicated, but I have no idea how this thing is supposed to work after finishing the article.

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Generally speaking City of Cleveland deals work this way:

 

100% tax abatement on residential portion for years 1- 15

Non-School TIF on commercial portion for years 1 - 30

Non-school TIF on residential for years 16 - 30

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42 minutes ago, freefourur said:

Generally speaking City of Cleveland deals work this way:

 

100% tax abatement on residential portion for years 1- 15

Non-School TIF on commercial portion for years 1 - 30

Non-school TIF on residential for years 16 - 30

 

Thank you. Just so I have this straight, the abatement on residential portion in years 1-15 includes abatement of school property taxes? And does the new development owner still pay existing property taxes on the previous value? I.E. Would they be paying the same property taxes going forward as the Market Square strip mall has been recently paying?

Edited by Boomerang_Brian
Clarification

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The 15-year abatement on residential includes school taxes. The taxes would be the same is my understanding. The abatement and TIF applies to the increase in value. 

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^ The unabated property tax is based on the assessed value of the underlying land. The assessed amount should reset based on the selling price of the plaza.

 

Harbor Pay paid $5.85 million for basically just the land so I'd argue the land tax should be higher than what is being paid now (land + existing plaza), but who knows how the county makes up the assessment. It'll probably end up being lower.

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19 hours ago, KJP said:

@Htsguy I think the reporter is confusing Market Square with the proposed TOD being pursued by Carnegie.

 

A lot of these projects can run together over time, but I thought I recalled the discussion of Market Square being eventually connected in addition to the duck island TOD.

 

A quick search yielded this article https://www.cleveland.com/business/2018/08/chicago-area_developer_has_gra.html

Quote

RTA also confirmed that its representatives met with Harbor Bay.

The cash-strapped transit agency doesn't have money allocated to renovate the Ohio City Rapid station. If there's any attempt to physically link the project to the station, a private developer would have to pay the bill. But RTA is willing to help a developer to find other sources of public or private money.

 

Perhaps that was the only indication that was possible in a later phase, I might go digging further.

 

Edit: That's the closest I'm seeing.

Edited by infrafreak
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Yeah. Terrible name. Market South. Market Tower. Anything else really. Side note. This has as many residential units as Nucleus??

Edited by marty15

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25 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Yeah. Terrible name. Market South. Market Tower. Anything else really. Side note. This has as many residential units as Nucleus??

They said that they are micro apartments so that makes sense.

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I’m sure the moderators would prefer not to have us all opine on the name INTRO, so I won’t. But I will say that the renderings look great and this project can only help a great, but struggling Cleveland landmark, the West Side Market. Ohio City has real energy and it’s great to see it increasingly trending as  a neighborhood of choice especially for younger residents. 

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yeah fail on the new moniker, but who cares, it will be a major hit. 

 

demo is supposed to start next month, so I hope people keep an eye out for any action on the site. 

 

sound like they cleared out all the businesses, so maybe fencing it all off is next? 

 

let us know what you see!

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What I’m really hoping for is a mix of retail in these spaces, spanning from Lululemon / Apple kind of stores to local artisans, etc. I REALLY think a high occupancy rate of quality tenants there will help develop 25th south of Lorain into a shopping destination, rather than “yeah there’s a few cool shops there”

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On 2/10/2020 at 11:21 PM, surfohio said:

It's going to be really something watching these go up! 

 

And I'm super confident BOTH will go up.....even though naming something "phase II" seems like a kiss of death around NEO hahaha.

 

 

 

On 2/10/2020 at 11:19 PM, KJP said:

@Htsguy I think the reporter is confusing Market Square with the proposed TOD being pursued by Carnegie.

No. The TOD being pursued by Carnegie is nearby, but not at the W.25th St. Ohio City RTA station. 

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37 minutes ago, RHiggs said:

 

No. The TOD being pursued by Carnegie is nearby, but not at the W.25th St. Ohio City RTA station. 

 

That's not my understanding. I'm told the Carnegie site could potentially involve building a plaza and structures over the tracks and include a new RTA station as part of the development. Still very early on so things can and probably will change.

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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Moving this from another thread.... 

 

But even if Intro wanted to attract a tenant like Hyland... does it have the capacity to do so and have any other office tenants? 

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52 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

Moving this from another thread.... 

 

But even if Intro wanted to attract a tenant like Hyland... does it have the capacity to do so and have any other office tenants? 

Since the office component is delayed, if they were to attract them wouldn't that make a good case for the office building to be made taller due to other potential office tenants being interested?

Edited by MyPhoneDead
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1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

That's not my understanding. I'm told the Carnegie site could potentially involve building a plaza and structures over the tracks and include a new RTA station as part of the development. Still very early on so things can and probably will change.

 

That may be true, but all I can tell you is that every hearing I've sat through where this project has been discussed has been pretty clear. They intend to find a way to connect with the station by Lorain across from West Side Market. And already they vacated Gehring Avenue to allow access down to track level at that station. Given where the proposal for Duck Island is targeting, it would make sense to find a way to connect them. Can't imagine larding up the Red Line tracks with multiple stations just blocks apart. But twice in the last week or so I've heard the councilman for the neighborhood crowing about how great this project is toward making statements that rapid transit is important for Cleveland and that the station is just footsteps away. 

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I've been reading the comments here about INTRO. It does seem like using that name misses the chance to capitalize on a historic connection with that neighborhood -- with the market and with the park across the street by the brewery.

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If one of the only things we're complaining about is the name, I think we're in a good spot! Developers are obviously tuned into the resident critics at UO! 

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13 minutes ago, RHiggs said:

 

That may be true, but all I can tell you is that every hearing I've sat through where this project has been discussed has been pretty clear. They intend to find a way to connect with the station by Lorain across from West Side Market. And already they vacated Gehring Avenue to allow access down to track level at that station. Given where the proposal for Duck Island is targeting, it would make sense to find a way to connect them. Can't imagine larding up the Red Line tracks with multiple stations just blocks apart. But twice in the last week or so I've heard the councilman for the neighborhood crowing about how great this project is toward making statements that rapid transit is important for Cleveland and that the station is just footsteps away. 

 

There will be only one RTA rail station. I didn't suggest otherwise. The current station headhouse is approaching 30 years old and is showing it. RTA can't use ADA compliance as the reason for replacing this station access point as it has the other, 1955-68 era Red Line stations because the Ohio City station does meet ADA. It does qualify for Urban Formula State of Good Repair funds but those are harder to come by as many of the rail systems built in the 1970s-90s are also aging and competing with Cleveland.

 

So the Carnegie TOD offers an opportunity to RTA to replace the Ohio City station headhouse with another, newer, pedestrian access point from street level which is above the tracks in this area. The new access point can be part of a TOD with the local/nonfederal share provided by the private sector, or at least by a TIF funded by taxes from a private sector development. Based on discussions with RTA staff and board, the new access point may be at the south of the EXISTING station platform, which would tie it in more closely with the Carnegie AND Harbor Bay developments, as well as provide a plaza above the tracks that would serve as a pedestrian-centric linkage and greenspace between Duck Island and Ohio City.

 

Ultimately, the existing station headhouse could be demolished and the existing platform lengthened into the area where it was originally located before 1990 -- extending to the north side of Lorain where another, more basic (but still ADA compliant) station access point could be provided -- similar to the one built last year on the other side of East 105th. That would greatly improve pedestrian access to the West Side Market and potentially spur development at the Brickhaus property, much of which is now for sale. That also offers a private sector contribution/TIF funding opportunity to provide the local share for constructing this access point.

 

At least that's some of the big-picture visioning that's going on with this station development area. I hope that clarifies things.

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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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^I'm skeptical that the development project would generate the local share for a transit project (public money tends to go into a project in these parts, not the other way around), but a new head house would be terrific. 

 

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2 hours ago, StapHanger said:

^I'm skeptical that the development project would generate the local share for a transit project (public money tends to go into a project in these parts, not the other way around), but a new head house would be terrific. 

 

 

I don't think it would generate the full 20% local share of a roughly $2 million to $5 million project. But it should contribute significantly. Besides I would think that RTA would want some skin in the game for legal standing.

Edited by KJP
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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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5 hours ago, ArtDecoSquirrel said:

Just to break the PC ice here so everyone can be on the same page, the "stigma" is mostly racial. Is it fair? Maybe in the worst parts of town, sure. I wouldn't wanna be riding the #1 late at night down St. Clair past E.55th, but that's common sense. The solution to the "stigma", is not to alienate the current riders, but get more people using mass transit in general as KJP alluded to. Updating our transit stations & turning them into hubs of activity will go a long way. 

Successful cities have integrated their transit into the fabric of the community, something we need to at least try and do with what we already have. There's a huge difference between Little Italy station & Puritas for example. I hope they redo the station on W. 25th from scratch, and find a way to make it work for everyone. 

This is true to some degree, and CLEVELAND is one of the most segregated Big cities in the nation so race is certainly an element of the stigma. (And for the record: a racist stigma is never fair, I’d correct that if I were you lol) But I can also speak at this angle: as a black person, we don’t like riding it either lol. There’s a stigma in the community that says that riding the RTA in any form means you’re poor. I remember once my car was out and I had to use RTA while my car was getting fixed and I got on the bus once with a family member and they saw someone that they knew and the first question was “what are you doing on RTA?!” Even the people who RIDE it have a stigma against it lol. So it’s not just among white folks trying to get away from black and Hispanic folks  (which is definitely a problem, obviously) but the stigma attached to the RTA in general regardless of community is that you ride public transportation because you’re poor and can’t afford a car. There’s no point of pride for riding on the RTA in the black community. A lot of people view it as a failure in life on your part if you have to ride it. So there’s perception and stigma problems with the RTA across the board that need to be addressed . No one wants to be on “Auntie RITA” as we call it lol and that stigma has to be addressed

Edited by inlovewithCLE
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And one more.....

 

 

Edited by KJP
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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Now's the time to snap archival photos of the plaza, as ugly as it is. Better yet, can someone ask the hostel to put a timelapse camera up on their rooftop space?? 

 

This is going to be such a cool project to watch.

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Would you all consider this the most transformative project that Ohio City has seen during its boom? Based off its location, what it's replacing, the scale as well as what they are proposing to bring to the area, I would say so. 

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