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Cleveland: Ohio City: INTRO (Market Square / Harbor Bay Development)

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They sure don't seem to be messing around! Wohoo. Are there any webcams near the market/facing that way?

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"The median income in the Ohio City neighborhood has skyrocketed from $23,000 to $93,000 over the last decade."

That is way more than I ever would have imagined

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1 hour ago, tykaps said:

"The median income in the Ohio City neighborhood has skyrocketed from $23,000 to $93,000 over the last decade."

That is way more than I ever would have imagined

Yeah those numbers seem like...lies? I guess it depends on how they’re defining the neighborhood but I can’t think of a single way to slice it where the income would be that high. 
 

Edit: Looks like the WSJ got those numbers right from OCI:

 

“In the Ohio City neighborhood, the median income skyrocketed to $93,000 from $23,000 since 2006, according to Ohio City Inc., a local nonprofit development group. Median home values shot up 800% since 2000 to $270,000, according to Ohio City Inc.”

 

I call shenanigans. I’d buy median sale price at $270k but not median value. There’s no way that income figure is accurate.

Edited by bumsquare
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7 minutes ago, bumsquare said:

Yeah those numbers seem like...lies? I guess it depends on how they’re defining the neighborhood but I can’t think of a single way to slice it where the income would be that high. 
 

Edit: Looks like the WSJ got those numbers right from OCI:

 

“In the Ohio City neighborhood, the median income skyrocketed to $93,000 from $23,000 since 2006, according to Ohio City Inc., a local nonprofit development group. Median home values shot up 800% since 2000 to $270,000, according to Ohio City Inc.”

 

I call shenanigans. I’d buy median sale price at $270k but not median value. There’s no way that income figure is accurate.

Very plausible if it's median household income. 

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Just now, KFM44107 said:

Very plausible if it's median household income. 

I would think average would be more likely. 

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That would put the median HHI higher than Hudson, which used to be the highest Zip Code by median HHI.  I don't see it.

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It would also place Ohio City’s median income above cities like Rocky River, Westlake and Strongsville, according to the numbers I’ve seen. I’d love to know where Ohio City, Inc got their data from! 

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12 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

Very plausible if it's median household income. 


FWIW a house on my street was purchased in 2006 for $55k and is now listed for $195k.

 

From the listing, the home looks nice but nothing extravagant/luxurious has really been done to it. 

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1 hour ago, YABO713 said:


FWIW a house on my street was purchased in 2006 for $55k and is now listed for $195k.

 

From the listing, the home looks nice but nothing extravagant/luxurious has really been done to it. 

That seems to be the direction things are going. With what home prices are in Ohio city you need an income around 92k to afford a house near or over 200k. That's why it wouldn't surprise me. 

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39 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

That seems to be the direction things are going. With what home prices are in Ohio city you need an income around 92k to afford a house near or over 200k. That's why it wouldn't surprise me. 

 

Agreed. My three newest neighbors purchased homes for above 300k, and all make well over 100k. Those who live here, or pay attention, aren't surprised by these figures.

Edited by Clefan98
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^ Just to add on. I work with three people who have bought houses and moved to Ohio City over the last 3-4 years. I’d be surprised if the least paid of them makes less than $100k, the other two are probably more around the $150k mark. 

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And they reckon that the last thing she saw in her life was
Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican

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10 minutes ago, West153 said:

I am single and make about 100k, I'm even priced out of most ohio city new builds.

 

In a strange way, that might be a good thing if that means more couples/families are moving to the area, right? 

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"^ Just to add on. I work with three people who have bought houses and moved to Ohio City over the last 3-4 years. I’d be surprised if the least paid of them makes less than $100k, the other two are probably more around the $150k mark. "

 

Well, if they are reporting the MEDIAN as $280K, then these people all qualify as under the median - would have to be balanced by three more families making more than $280K

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2 hours ago, bjk said:

"^ Just to add on. I work with three people who have bought houses and moved to Ohio City over the last 3-4 years. I’d be surprised if the least paid of them makes less than $100k, the other two are probably more around the $150k mark. "

 

Well, if they are reporting the MEDIAN as $280K, then these people all qualify as under the median - would have to be balanced by three more families making more than $280K

 

280k is the median house sales price, not salary median.

 

The median income is 93k, so all of these individuals are OVER the median.

Edited by Clefan98
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Okay, this Ohio City numbers game is kind of annoying at this point, can y'all talk demographics somewhere else? 

 

This week is the first week of demo of the plaza, I'd hope to see some pics (even if they aren't showing a whole heck of a lot!).

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Market+Square-Intro-W25th-Lorain-corner1

 

MONDAY, MARCH 23, 2020

Financing set, work starts at Ohio City's Intro

 

Overnight work began late Monday (March 23) on expanding utilities in the vicinity of a planned mixed-use development that will further enliven one of Cleveland's most recognizable intersections.

The development is Harbor Bay Real Estate Advisors LLC's Market Square and the intersection is Lorain Avenue at West 25th Street onto which the iconic tower of West Side Market casts its shadow. The first phase of Market Square is Intro -- a seven-story building with 290 market-rate apartments over 36,000 square feet of retail and 550 underground parking spaces.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/03/financing-set-work-starts-at-ohio-citys.html

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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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1 hour ago, KJP said:

Market+Square-Intro-W25th-Lorain-corner1

 

MONDAY, MARCH 23, 2020

Financing set, work starts at Ohio City's Intro

 

Overnight work began late Monday (March 23) on expanding utilities in the vicinity of a planned mixed-use development that will further enliven one of Cleveland's most recognizable intersections.

The development is Harbor Bay Real Estate Advisors LLC's Market Square and the intersection is Lorain Avenue at West 25th Street onto which the iconic tower of West Side Market casts its shadow. The first phase of Market Square is Intro -- a seven-story building with 290 market-rate apartments over 36,000 square feet of retail and 550 underground parking spaces.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/03/financing-set-work-starts-at-ohio-citys.html

ANOTHER great article KEN!   

What will be the total sq. ft. of the planned 10-story office building if it's built (office + retail + parking)?

 

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This is fantastic project!  I really love the proximity to 25th street, downtown and RTA.  This will feel like a true walking urban neighborhood with all that is going on in Ohio City,  With that said, I would like to see similar development in a community such as Hough where it is gentrified with upwardly mobile African Americans.  Most of the black neighborhoods in Cleveland are still struggling and the Cleveland's overall population will not see meaningful significantly gains until those swaths of neighborhoods see similar levels of investment.  And yes, nice article Ken.  

Edited by newyorker
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6 hours ago, KJP said:

Market+Square-Intro-W25th-Lorain-corner1

 

MONDAY, MARCH 23, 2020

Financing set, work starts at Ohio City's Intro

 

Overnight work began late Monday (March 23) on expanding utilities in the vicinity of a planned mixed-use development that will further enliven one of Cleveland's most recognizable intersections.

The development is Harbor Bay Real Estate Advisors LLC's Market Square and the intersection is Lorain Avenue at West 25th Street onto which the iconic tower of West Side Market casts its shadow. The first phase of Market Square is Intro -- a seven-story building with 290 market-rate apartments over 36,000 square feet of retail and 550 underground parking spaces.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/03/financing-set-work-starts-at-ohio-citys.html

 

On 2/24/2020 at 7:45 PM, NorthShore647 said:

via the Feb. 27th Landmarks Commission Agenda

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/landmark/agenda/2020/02272020/index.php

image.thumb.png.fa2aed32d8e9d3162268d87b5d576a70.png

 

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.10f585d7a91aff7a6abeded4a7b54435.png

 

On 2/24/2020 at 8:31 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:


OK, so the residential part is definitely taller now, which is great. I’m pretty sure it was 7 stories before and now it appears to be 9 stories. Compare it with this earlier rendering.  It isn’t as tall as the original office building, but those additional floors will add a bunch more apartment units. 
 

I do think it would be nice to have a bit of a setback of the top couple stories near the W 25 Lorain intersection to preserve site lines of the Market tower. Other than that I’m thrillled with the additional height. 
 

4C9EEC03-0424-44C3-BDA1-365962825CD2.jpeg.9240a6ab36278d0dcd14b62017178387.jpeg

 


Hey Ken, great to hear that the financing is lined up and everything is a go for construction of the residential building. I’m seeing conflicting info on the height. The more recent renderings that @NorthShore647 posted from the February Landmarks Commission approval meeting clearly show a 9 story apartment building, not the earlier 7 story version. I was under the impression that they made the apartment building taller once the office building had to be delayed.  Has recent info given you the impression it will only be 7 stories? Either way, I’m very glad to see this project moving. 

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@Boomerang_Brian Thanks. The descriptions didn't jibe with the renders. That also means that the office building will be 11 stories. 

 

@Larry1962 Not sure about the office building size with the parking included. That would take some rough estimating. 

Edited by KJP
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31 minutes ago, KJP said:

@Boomerang_Brian Thanks. The descriptions didn't jibe with the renders. That also means that the office building will be 11 stories. 


Does it, though? The revised apartment renders ONLY show the new 9 story design of the apartment building. The office was two (?) stories taller than the original 7 story apartment building. I don’t think we have any indication of what a revised office building might look like. And I’m sure it depends on what tenant they line up - a spec office building seems extremely unlikely. 

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25 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:


Does it, though? The revised apartment renders ONLY show the new 9 story design of the apartment building. The office was two (?) stories taller than the original 7 story apartment building. I don’t think we have any indication of what a revised office building might look like. And I’m sure it depends on what tenant they line up - a spec office building seems extremely unlikely. 

 

I'm going by this listing which refers to an 11-story office tower: https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/West-25th-Lorain-Cleveland-OH/16600072/

 

BTW, I've sent a message to double-check with Dan Whalen.

Edited by KJP
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Whatever the final height ends up at, I'm just glad this is getting started before any further economic downturn engages.   Let's get this thing built as fast as possible!  

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I absolutely love the height deference to the WSM tower. Avoiding the William Penn curse! lol

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Updated the article with details about the office building. In the end, the advertised height of the building doesn't matter. It will be determined by leasing activity and zoning. Max height is 175 feet or about 11-12 stories.

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As always, great article from KJP...There was a time not that long ago, when this kind of new investment and development in Ohio City would have been hard to imagine.. Now, it seems like one new project literally leads to the next. As downtown has resurged, critical urban neighborhoods like OC and University Circle have benefitted. It’s gratifying and exciting to see these distinctive urban  communities  expanding and redefining themselves in such dynamic fashion. 

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its very heartening to hear the city has started utilities work. anything thats normalcy at this time gives hope.

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So I'm not quite sure if it was just your reporting, or coming from them (based on the new renders, looks like from them) ... My original understanding was the entire project renamed as INTRO, but now its looking like the apartments are called INTRO and the entire project is still Market Square. If that's the case, I'd be more than ok with it. INTRO at Market Square would be good placemaking and marketing in my non-professional opinion. 

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18 hours ago, KJP said:

@Boomerang_Brian Thanks. The descriptions didn't jibe with the renders. That also means that the office building will be 11 stories. 

 

@Larry1962 Not sure about the office building size with the parking included. That would take some rough estimating. 

Ken or anyone else, what will be the total sq. ft. of the planned 10-11 story office building IF it's built with just the office and retail?? 

NOT INCLUDING THE PARKING sq. ft.

Thanks

 

EDIT:

 

The good news is that they increased the number of apartments from 250 to 290 with nine floors for the residential tower.  And also increased the amount of sq. ft. from 150,000 sq. ft. to 208,000 sq. ft.  with 11-12 floors for the office tower per the Loopnet listing.

 

But of course the final sq. ft. and height of the office tower will depend on the number and size of the companies that will take advantage of an IDEA LOCATION. 

 

Especially considering that it will be in the heart of Ohio City and will be surrounded by great restaurants, retail, apartments/homes, schools, public transit AND only a mile from the CBD.  PLUS it will have most of the perks of a Ernst & Young building but with perhaps a lower cost to lease.

 

Edited by Larry1962
More details and typos
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6 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

Ken or anyone else, what will be the total sq. ft. of the planned 10-11 story office building IF it's built with just the office and retail?? 

NOT INCLUDING THE PARKING sq. ft.

Thanks

 

EDIT:

 

The good news is that they increased the number of apartments from 250 to 290 with nine floors for the residential tower.  And also increased the amount of sq. ft. from 150,000 sq. ft. to 208,000 sq. ft.  with 11-12 floors for the office tower per the Loopnet listing.

 

But of course the final sq. ft. and height of the office tower will depend on the number and size of the companies that will take advantage of an IDEA LOCATION. 

 

Especially considering that it will be in the heart of Ohio City and will be surrounded by great restaurants, retail, apartments/homes, schools, public transit AND only a mile from the CBD.  PLUS it will have most of the perks of a Ernst & Young building but with perhaps a lower cost to lease.

 

 

The proposed size of the office building at this point is merely a reference point. If built, it could be any size, depending on an anchor tenant, how many secondary tenants sign leases, and when Harbor Bay decides it doesn't want to wait anymore to sign additional tenants. The real question is, what's the minimum number of square footage Harbor Bay needs to lease in the office building before it can move forward with it?

Edited by KJP
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^If anyone can grab a picture or two of the demo of that retail strip, I'd love to see them.  I've been waiting for that shopping center to encounter the wrecking ball for years. 

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12 hours ago, jeremyck01 said:

^If anyone can grab a picture or two of the demo of that retail strip, I'd love to see them.  I've been waiting for that shopping center to encounter the wrecking ball for years. 

It's supposed to happen this month, right? 

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16 minutes ago, ASPhotoman said:

It's supposed to happen this month, right? 

 

Per @KJP post above, demo is set to begin Monday 

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1 minute ago, Cleburger said:

 

Per @KJP post above, demo is set to begin Monday 

Thanks, I completely missed that. If it's nice Monday, I'll head out for a drive and try and grab some pics. 🙂

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12 hours ago, jeremyck01 said:

^If anyone can grab a picture or two of the demo of that retail strip, I'd love to see them.  I've been waiting for that shopping center to encounter the wrecking ball for years. 

 

I got jumped there in high school leaving Subway - tear 'er down! lol

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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Update coming..... 😉 

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Market+Plaza-pre-demo-041020-2.jpg

 

MONDAY, APRIL 13, 2020

Demolition, groundbreaking this week for big Ohio City project

 

Demolition work is scheduled to start today for the $140 million Intro phase of the Market Square development in Cleveland's Ohio City neighborhood. But if you wanted to attend a groundbreaking ceremony for this mixed-use project, the coronavirus crisis has made that risky and unnecessary.

There's still going to be a groundbreaking in the coming days, just not a ceremony, said Dan Whalen, vice president of design and development at Chicago-based Harbor Bay Realty Advisors LLC.

"No formal groundbreaking is scheduled at this point due to COVID-19," he said. "We're pushing onward quietly."

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/04/demolition-groundbreaking-this-week-for.html

Edited by KJP
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8 hours ago, KJP said:

Market+Plaza-pre-demo-041020-2.jpg

 

MONDAY, APRIL 13, 2020

Demolition, groundbreaking this week for big Ohio City project

 

Demolition work is scheduled to start today for the $140 million Intro phase of the Market Square development in Cleveland's Ohio City neighborhood. But if you wanted to attend a groundbreaking ceremony for this mixed-use project, the coronavirus crisis has made that risky and unnecessary.

There's still going to be a groundbreaking in the coming days, just not a ceremony, said Dan Whalen, vice president of design and development at Chicago-based Harbor Bay Realty Advisors LLC.

"No formal groundbreaking is scheduled at this point due to COVID-19," he said. "We're pushing onward quietly."

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/04/demolition-groundbreaking-this-week-for.html

Just drove past work site and Demolition work has STARTED!!

Photos to follow.

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Cool! I added a quote from Councilman McCormack to the article. 

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4 minutes ago, KJP said:

Cool! I added a quote from Councilman McCormack to the article. 

THANK YOU Ken for another great article!

They have a firehose behind the buildings keeping down the dust.  BUT OF COURSE with the rain coming in that shouldn't be a problem today...

20200413_080703.thumb.jpg.d76e65ed97f8bebd41e72dac24539bec.jpg

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This is a great day in Ohio City history. In my opinion this was the biggest embarrassment in the neighborhood, so happy to see it coming down and being replaced with something of scale (I'll leave my thoughts on the actual design out of this). The visual density at this corner will feel amazing once complete.

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2 hours ago, w28th said:

 (I'll leave my thoughts on the actual design out of this).

 

Great, thanks.

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