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Cleveland: Ohio City: INTRO (Market Square / Harbor Bay Development)

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25 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Yeah. Terrible name. Market South. Market Tower. Anything else really. Side note. This has as many residential units as Nucleus??

They said that they are micro apartments so that makes sense.

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I’m sure the moderators would prefer not to have us all opine on the name INTRO, so I won’t. But I will say that the renderings look great and this project can only help a great, but struggling Cleveland landmark, the West Side Market. Ohio City has real energy and it’s great to see it increasingly trending as  a neighborhood of choice especially for younger residents. 

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yeah fail on the new moniker, but who cares, it will be a major hit. 

 

demo is supposed to start next month, so I hope people keep an eye out for any action on the site. 

 

sound like they cleared out all the businesses, so maybe fencing it all off is next? 

 

let us know what you see!

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What I’m really hoping for is a mix of retail in these spaces, spanning from Lululemon / Apple kind of stores to local artisans, etc. I REALLY think a high occupancy rate of quality tenants there will help develop 25th south of Lorain into a shopping destination, rather than “yeah there’s a few cool shops there”

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On 2/10/2020 at 11:21 PM, surfohio said:

It's going to be really something watching these go up! 

 

And I'm super confident BOTH will go up.....even though naming something "phase II" seems like a kiss of death around NEO hahaha.

 

 

 

On 2/10/2020 at 11:19 PM, KJP said:

@Htsguy I think the reporter is confusing Market Square with the proposed TOD being pursued by Carnegie.

No. The TOD being pursued by Carnegie is nearby, but not at the W.25th St. Ohio City RTA station. 

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37 minutes ago, RHiggs said:

 

No. The TOD being pursued by Carnegie is nearby, but not at the W.25th St. Ohio City RTA station. 

 

That's not my understanding. I'm told the Carnegie site could potentially involve building a plaza and structures over the tracks and include a new RTA station as part of the development. Still very early on so things can and probably will change.

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Moving this from another thread.... 

 

But even if Intro wanted to attract a tenant like Hyland... does it have the capacity to do so and have any other office tenants? 

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52 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

Moving this from another thread.... 

 

But even if Intro wanted to attract a tenant like Hyland... does it have the capacity to do so and have any other office tenants? 

Since the office component is delayed, if they were to attract them wouldn't that make a good case for the office building to be made taller due to other potential office tenants being interested?

Edited by MyPhoneDead
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1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

That's not my understanding. I'm told the Carnegie site could potentially involve building a plaza and structures over the tracks and include a new RTA station as part of the development. Still very early on so things can and probably will change.

 

That may be true, but all I can tell you is that every hearing I've sat through where this project has been discussed has been pretty clear. They intend to find a way to connect with the station by Lorain across from West Side Market. And already they vacated Gehring Avenue to allow access down to track level at that station. Given where the proposal for Duck Island is targeting, it would make sense to find a way to connect them. Can't imagine larding up the Red Line tracks with multiple stations just blocks apart. But twice in the last week or so I've heard the councilman for the neighborhood crowing about how great this project is toward making statements that rapid transit is important for Cleveland and that the station is just footsteps away. 

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I've been reading the comments here about INTRO. It does seem like using that name misses the chance to capitalize on a historic connection with that neighborhood -- with the market and with the park across the street by the brewery.

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If one of the only things we're complaining about is the name, I think we're in a good spot! Developers are obviously tuned into the resident critics at UO! 

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13 minutes ago, RHiggs said:

 

That may be true, but all I can tell you is that every hearing I've sat through where this project has been discussed has been pretty clear. They intend to find a way to connect with the station by Lorain across from West Side Market. And already they vacated Gehring Avenue to allow access down to track level at that station. Given where the proposal for Duck Island is targeting, it would make sense to find a way to connect them. Can't imagine larding up the Red Line tracks with multiple stations just blocks apart. But twice in the last week or so I've heard the councilman for the neighborhood crowing about how great this project is toward making statements that rapid transit is important for Cleveland and that the station is just footsteps away. 

 

There will be only one RTA rail station. I didn't suggest otherwise. The current station headhouse is approaching 30 years old and is showing it. RTA can't use ADA compliance as the reason for replacing this station access point as it has the other, 1955-68 era Red Line stations because the Ohio City station does meet ADA. It does qualify for Urban Formula State of Good Repair funds but those are harder to come by as many of the rail systems built in the 1970s-90s are also aging and competing with Cleveland.

 

So the Carnegie TOD offers an opportunity to RTA to replace the Ohio City station headhouse with another, newer, pedestrian access point from street level which is above the tracks in this area. The new access point can be part of a TOD with the local/nonfederal share provided by the private sector, or at least by a TIF funded by taxes from a private sector development. Based on discussions with RTA staff and board, the new access point may be at the south of the EXISTING station platform, which would tie it in more closely with the Carnegie AND Harbor Bay developments, as well as provide a plaza above the tracks that would serve as a pedestrian-centric linkage and greenspace between Duck Island and Ohio City.

 

Ultimately, the existing station headhouse could be demolished and the existing platform lengthened into the area where it was originally located before 1990 -- extending to the north side of Lorain where another, more basic (but still ADA compliant) station access point could be provided -- similar to the one built last year on the other side of East 105th. That would greatly improve pedestrian access to the West Side Market and potentially spur development at the Brickhaus property, much of which is now for sale. That also offers a private sector contribution/TIF funding opportunity to provide the local share for constructing this access point.

 

At least that's some of the big-picture visioning that's going on with this station development area. I hope that clarifies things.

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^I'm skeptical that the development project would generate the local share for a transit project (public money tends to go into a project in these parts, not the other way around), but a new head house would be terrific. 

 

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2 hours ago, StapHanger said:

^I'm skeptical that the development project would generate the local share for a transit project (public money tends to go into a project in these parts, not the other way around), but a new head house would be terrific. 

 

 

I don't think it would generate the full 20% local share of a roughly $2 million to $5 million project. But it should contribute significantly. Besides I would think that RTA would want some skin in the game for legal standing.

Edited by KJP
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5 hours ago, ArtDecoSquirrel said:

Just to break the PC ice here so everyone can be on the same page, the "stigma" is mostly racial. Is it fair? Maybe in the worst parts of town, sure. I wouldn't wanna be riding the #1 late at night down St. Clair past E.55th, but that's common sense. The solution to the "stigma", is not to alienate the current riders, but get more people using mass transit in general as KJP alluded to. Updating our transit stations & turning them into hubs of activity will go a long way. 

Successful cities have integrated their transit into the fabric of the community, something we need to at least try and do with what we already have. There's a huge difference between Little Italy station & Puritas for example. I hope they redo the station on W. 25th from scratch, and find a way to make it work for everyone. 

This is true to some degree, and CLEVELAND is one of the most segregated Big cities in the nation so race is certainly an element of the stigma. (And for the record: a racist stigma is never fair, I’d correct that if I were you lol) But I can also speak at this angle: as a black person, we don’t like riding it either lol. There’s a stigma in the community that says that riding the RTA in any form means you’re poor. I remember once my car was out and I had to use RTA while my car was getting fixed and I got on the bus once with a family member and they saw someone that they knew and the first question was “what are you doing on RTA?!” Even the people who RIDE it have a stigma against it lol. So it’s not just among white folks trying to get away from black and Hispanic folks  (which is definitely a problem, obviously) but the stigma attached to the RTA in general regardless of community is that you ride public transportation because you’re poor and can’t afford a car. There’s no point of pride for riding on the RTA in the black community. A lot of people view it as a failure in life on your part if you have to ride it. So there’s perception and stigma problems with the RTA across the board that need to be addressed . No one wants to be on “Auntie RITA” as we call it lol and that stigma has to be addressed

Edited by inlovewithCLE
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And one more.....

 

 

Edited by KJP
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Now's the time to snap archival photos of the plaza, as ugly as it is. Better yet, can someone ask the hostel to put a timelapse camera up on their rooftop space?? 

 

This is going to be such a cool project to watch.

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Would you all consider this the most transformative project that Ohio City has seen during its boom? Based off its location, what it's replacing, the scale as well as what they are proposing to bring to the area, I would say so. 

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^Outside of downtown and University Circle, this is probably the site that UO types have daydreamed about most for many, many years, so I'm going to say yes.

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24 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Would you all consider this the most transformative project that Ohio City has seen during its boom? Based off its location, what it's replacing, the scale as well as what they are proposing to bring to the area, I would say so. 

I think so, although losing the parking lot at 25th/Detroit was huge. Now if something could replace the lots at Lutheran....

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2 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Would you all consider this the most transformative project that Ohio City has seen during its boom? Based off its location, what it's replacing, the scale as well as what they are proposing to bring to the area, I would say so. 

 

Yes, especially if the office component happens. 

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Wasn't sure is this was seen before, but on the southern end of the project along W25th, there appears to be a bit of a reworking of Gehring. Its intersection with W25th is further down into the Office Tower / Phase 2 area, forming a triangle of new space that will (according to the plans from the upcoming Landmarks meeting) include 9 surface lots and a dog park. 

 

Former:

image.png.3efbb20c2ad918b6eb90a4991a79bf30.png

 

Feb. 27th Landmarks Agenda:

image.thumb.png.293624c3363d9a33fa9667ab4caa1da5.png

Edited by NorthShore647

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38 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

via the Feb. 27th Landmarks Commission Agenda

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/landmark/agenda/2020/02272020/index.php

image.thumb.png.fa2aed32d8e9d3162268d87b5d576a70.png

 

image.thumb.png.8147fdd15ec5b37783ee3af8fb6a0bcc.png

 

 

 


OK, so the residential part is definitely taller now, which is great. I’m pretty sure it was 7 stories before and now it appears to be 9 stories. Compare it with this earlier rendering.  It isn’t as tall as the original office building, but those additional floors will add a bunch more apartment units. 
 

I do think it would be nice to have a bit of a setback of the top couple stories near the W 25 Lorain intersection to preserve site lines of the Market tower. Other than that I’m thrillled with the additional height. 
 

4C9EEC03-0424-44C3-BDA1-365962825CD2.jpeg.9240a6ab36278d0dcd14b62017178387.jpeg

 

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40 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

Wasn't sure is this was seen before, but on the southern end of the project along W25th, there appears to be a bit of a reworking of Gehring. Its intersection with W25th is further down into the Office Tower / Phase 2 area, forming a triangle of new space that will (according to the plans from the upcoming Landmarks meeting) include 9 surface lots and a dog park. 

 

Former:

image.png.3efbb20c2ad918b6eb90a4991a79bf30.png

 

Feb. 27th Landmarks Agenda:

image.thumb.png.293624c3363d9a33fa9667ab4caa1da5.png


This simply reflects the existing path of Gehring. The original proposal was to relocate that road. I’m assuming they’ll still do that if they ever get Phase 2 off the ground. 

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2 minutes ago, jbee1982 said:

Was the office component cancelled or just delayed??

 

I believe it is being treated as a hopeful 'phase 2'

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It was a realistic office development when the state was abating the property taxes. But when local governments spoke out against the state action, the office component went away in the absence of a local property tax abatement.

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I love everything about this project.  It's sophisticated and exactly the type of new-build Cleveland needs.  I love the windows, the massing, the materials used, the height, the colors...did I mention I love everything?

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1 minute ago, jeremyck01 said:

I love everything about this project.  It's sophisticated and exactly the type of new-build Cleveland needs.  I love the windows, the massing, the materials used, the height, the colors...did I mention I love everything?

If i read between the lines, I think you like it.

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If it takes a 30 year abatement to get new office construction in this town, so be it. It’s the old 0% of 0 argument. This whole project needs to be completed.

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1 minute ago, marty15 said:

If it takes a 30 year abatement to get new office construction in this town, so be it. It’s the old 0% of 0 argument. This whole project needs to be completed.


Especially because the developers came up with a clever way to get the full TIF so it’s not like it’s opening up Pandora’s box to all future developments asking for it.

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On 2/24/2020 at 7:45 PM, NorthShore647 said:

via the Feb. 27th Landmarks Commission Agenda

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/landmark/agenda/2020/02272020/index.php

image.thumb.png.fa2aed32d8e9d3162268d87b5d576a70.png

 

image.thumb.png.8147fdd15ec5b37783ee3af8fb6a0bcc.png

 

image.thumb.png.2bdcb90af8cd918c27d5e5df4dcfff6d.png

 

image.thumb.png.da898924bf95b82f3bcdbc232e86071f.png

 

image.thumb.png.10f585d7a91aff7a6abeded4a7b54435.png

Are they greatly reducing the amount of mass timber framing in this new version of the Intro Building? 

IF they are it's SAD, because I really liked the original version!

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7 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

Are they greatly reducing the amount of mass timber framing in this new version of the Intro Building? 

IF they are it's SAD, because I really liked the original version!


I’m not sure what you’re seeing - to me it looks the same as the original apartment building rendering, just two stories taller. 

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3 hours ago, cadmen said:

So is the office component (phase II) nixed permanently or just post-phoned? 

 

Postponed until a significant user steps forward to lease much if not all of the building or build the building themselves.

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15 hours ago, jbee1982 said:

Does anyone know how much rent will cost?

If I recall correctly (and I may not, because I'm not in the market), I heard from a reliable source $2.40 per square foot.  Pricey.

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55 minutes ago, gruver said:

If I recall correctly (and I may not, because I'm not in the market), I heard from a reliable source $2.40 per square foot.  Pricey.

 

Though arguably one of the best locations you could think to be in Cleveland.   The Market, one stop transit to Public Square (also walkable there) and airport access via transit.   I'd love to live there!  

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11 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Though arguably one of the best locations you could think to be in Cleveland.   The Market, one stop transit to Public Square (also walkable there) and airport access via transit.   I'd love to live there!  

 

Speaking of transit, it's also a major transfer point for busses!

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20 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Postponed until a significant user steps forward to lease much if not all of the building or build the building themselves.

Is there anyone interested in doing that?

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4 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Is there anyone interested in doing that?

 

I'm not familiar with Harbor Bay's discussions with any possible tenants including its potential retail tenants for either phase. In general however, I am aware that there are potential office tenants out there looking for new/expanded space. But most are smaller, growing tenants -- not the kind that could anchor Market Square's office component.

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On 2/26/2020 at 8:57 AM, cadmen said:

So is the office component (phase II) nixed permanently or just post-phoned? 

 

It's really too bad that the proposed RTA station improvements are tied to Phase II and not Phase I. 

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47 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

It's really too bad that the proposed RTA station improvements are tied to Phase II and not Phase I. 

 

The RTA station improvements have nothing to do with the Market Square development. The Carnegie project does. You will hear more about that next week.

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Harbor Bay's Intro project: Here comes the neighborhood

 

The project, recently named Intro, finally will break ground in mid-March. It will be a nine-story mixed-use building with about 36,000 square feet of retail and 300 apartments "priced near the top of the market," according to Whalen.

 

"They are going to have a lot of studio apartments, a large chunk of one-bedroom, some three-bedroom units. We are marketed to young millennials and empty-nesters," Whalen said.

 

The $140 million-plus project, when completed, will be the largest mass timber frame building in the United States, according to Whalen.

 

MORE:

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/harbor-bays-intro-project-here-comes-neighborhood

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1 hour ago, KJP said:

Harbor Bay's Intro project: Here comes the neighborhood

 

The project, recently named Intro, finally will break ground in mid-March. It will be a nine-story mixed-use building with about 36,000 square feet of retail and 300 apartments "priced near the top of the market," according to Whalen.

 

"They are going to have a lot of studio apartments, a large chunk of one-bedroom, some three-bedroom units. We are marketed to young millennials and empty-nesters," Whalen said.

 

The $140 million-plus project, when completed, will be the largest mass timber frame building in the United States, according to Whalen.

 

MORE:

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/harbor-bays-intro-project-here-comes-neighborhood

ANOTHER GREAT ARTICLE by Crain's Cleveland Business!

 

I really liked these paragraphs:

 

Harbor Bay paid $10.5 million and worked on relocating the Market Plaza strips's businesses, providing construction and financing services to assist in rehabbing abandoned buildings for them in the Ohio City area.

 

"Most developers are focused on getting the site cleared as quickly as possible," Whalen said. "But, for me, having lived in the area before, it was important to work with everyone to achieve a sustainable solution for the neighborhood."

 

Now to me that's DOING THE RIGHT THING and PAYING IT FORWARD TOO! 

 

We are really lucky to have some of the BEST DEVELOPERS working in this area!

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