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KJP

Cleveland: Ohio City: INTRO (Market Square / Harbor Bay Development)

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The southern parking lot, close to the intersection of Gehring and West 25th, is part of Casto's redevelopment of the former Voss Industries property. The other parking lot just north of it is the lot for West Side Market employees but is part of the site plan for Harbor Bay, including the parking garage with the future office building to rise above it....

 

Market Square-siteplan1.JPG

 

Market Square-siteplan-with-retail1.JPG

 

 

By the way, I love how this ugly scene that greets you when you walk out of the Red Line rail station (which could be replaced with a subway station below Carnegie's TOD) will give way to a much more welcoming face to the Market District...

 

Market Square-view from RTA station-current1.jpg

 

Market Square-view from RTA station-proposed1.jpg

Edited by KJP
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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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1 minute ago, ASPhotoman said:

Ohhh I love that last rendering. I've never seen that before. Where are they?

 

Loopnet, but available only under the retail listing. They have interior renderings of the offices with the exposed wood beams. One example...

 

image.jpg

 

 

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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The apprenticeship center for the carpenter's union has started doing some mass timber framing classes, or at least I know they're getting ready to organize them. Many of the instructors attended a conference in Las Vegas to prepare for it or something like that. The whole reason is this project.

I know it's not really a legitimate update, but if the local unions are updating their curriculum to be better prepared for this thing, it must be a good sign. We need more projects like this, call me crazy but I think West 25 & Hingetown have a higher developmental ceiling in the long-term than North High Street in Columbus. That's exactly what Market Square reminds me of architecturally. 

Edited by ArtDecoSquirrel
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On 12/22/2019 at 12:14 PM, KJP said:

 

Loopnet, but available only under the retail listing. They have interior renderings of the offices with the exposed wood beams. One example...

 

image.jpg

 

 

 

Interesting, the renderings are proposing a mass timber structure. Would be a first for Cleveland.

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1 hour ago, yanni_gogolak said:

 

Interesting, the renderings are proposing a mass timber structure. Would be a first for Cleveland.

Nice looking rendering...but being a firefighter, I don't see a single sprinkler head in that pic...in a timber frame...interesting.

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13 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

Nice looking rendering...but being a firefighter, I don't see a single sprinkler head in that pic...in a timber frame...interesting.

 

 

i dk why but that made me lol.

 

friday i guess. 

 

this is such an amazing project, really looking forward to it.

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14 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

Nice looking rendering...but being a firefighter, I don't see a single sprinkler head in that pic...in a timber frame...interesting.

 

Please show me a rendering where a sprinkler head is present. The idea of a rendering is to sell the product. I can pretty much guarantee the windows on the building will not be that clear looking in from the outside as well.

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25 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

Nice looking rendering...but being a firefighter, I don't see a single sprinkler head in that pic...in a timber frame...interesting.

 

From the article: 

Quote

 

Cities built of wood, from London to Chicago, have famously burned. But engineered timber, made of glued and laminated lumber, is now viewed as competitive with concrete and steel in strength and fire resistance.

Building codes in U.S. cities are evolving along with adoption of the new/old material. Whelan said Cleveland’s fire and building departments cleared Market Square for construction after extensive discussion. "Our building will be built in excess of current code requirements," Whelan said.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

 

Cleveland.com / Higgs got that backwards, right? The article says the larger office tower is going in first with the apartments as phase 2. But everything else we’ve heard and says the apartments are first. Fact checking is hard. 🤦‍♂️ 

 

We miss you at cle.com @mjarboe

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Here ya go, crane addicts! TWO CRANES!!

 

 

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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ooOOO niiiiice!

 

this is one of the most interesting projects in the world -- it is going to make a huge splash when it gets going.

 

perfectly sited too. just wow.

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So it begins...next month:

 

Cleveland City Council OKs tax incentives for two Ohio City development projects

Today 7:23 PM

By Robert Higgs, cleveland.com

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – City Council gave final approval Monday to tax incentives sought by developers to help convert underused property on Cleveland’s West Side into new housing.

 

One project, Market Square, would involve razing the struggling Market Plaza built in the 1970s across Lorain Avenue from the West Side Market. Harbor Bay Real Estate Advisors plans to replace it with about 300 market-rate apartments and about 40,000 square feet of retail space.

 

Demolition and construction could begin as soon as March, the company has said.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2020/02/cleveland-city-council-oks-tax-incentives-for-two-ohio-city-development-projects.html

Edited by MuRrAy HiLL
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How was the Market Plaza struggling? It was fully leased until Harbor Bay began clearing out tenants.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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3 minutes ago, KJP said:

How was the Market Plaza struggling? It was fully leased until Harbor Bay began clearing out tenants.

You beat me to it @KJP.  I was going to post the same question after reading the article.  Sometimes I think reporters say things just to say things.

 

Also, first I have heard that Phase 2 is going to be connected directly to the RTA station.  Is that actually the case?  Seems strange to me given its location on West 25th.  That would be great.

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@Htsguy I think the reporter is confusing Market Square with the proposed TOD being pursued by Carnegie.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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It's going to be really something watching these go up! 

 

And I'm super confident BOTH will go up.....even though naming something "phase II" seems like a kiss of death around NEO hahaha.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, KJP said:

@Htsguy I think the reporter is confusing Market Square with the proposed TOD being pursued by Carnegie.

Well then strike two.  It is like reading the New York Times.  Not.

Edited by Htsguy

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1 hour ago, Htsguy said:

Well then strike two.  It is like reading the New York Times.  Not.


@KJP @Htsguy I’m reluctant to criticize a professional without knowing them personally, but based on a lot of his work over the past 6+ months I think it’s fair to say that Robert Higgs...leaves a lot to be desired. 
 

I didn’t even react to the “struggling” label or his assertion that phase II will connect directly to the Rapid station because I was too distracted by him describing Market Square as being built in the 1970s. It’s inarguable that Market Square is mid-‘80s era, right?!

 

I won’t even raise a blatant error he made in his description of the Tinnerman Lofts project because it’s admittedly a bit of a personal pet peeve and ultimately insignificant to the overall story. However, it’s a lazy mistake and it’s a shame that we can’t expect more from our journalists these days. 

 

The lack of professional pride is sometimes astounding. 
 

/rant

Edited by brtshrcegr
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7 hours ago, MuRrAy HiLL said:

So it begins...next month:

 

Cleveland City Council OKs tax incentives for two Ohio City development projects

Today 7:23 PM

By Robert Higgs, cleveland.com

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – City Council gave final approval Monday to tax incentives sought by developers to help convert underused property on Cleveland’s West Side into new housing.

 

One project, Market Square, would involve razing the struggling Market Plaza built in the 1970s across Lorain Avenue from the West Side Market. Harbor Bay Real Estate Advisors plans to replace it with about 300 market-rate apartments and about 40,000 square feet of retail space.

 

Demolition and construction could begin as soon as March, the company has said.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2020/02/cleveland-city-council-oks-tax-incentives-for-two-ohio-city-development-projects.html

Depending on the success of the Beachwood Place location, I feel this would be the perfect location for an H&M home due to all the new and recently completed construction.

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6 hours ago, brtshrcegr said:


@KJP @Htsguy I’m reluctant to criticize a professional without knowing them personally, but based on a lot of his work over the past 6+ months I think it’s fair to say that Robert Higgs...leaves a lot to be desired. 
 

I didn’t even react to the “struggling” label or his assertion that phase II will connect directly to the Rapid station because I was too distracted by him describing Market Square as being built in the 1970s. It’s inarguable that Market Square is mid-‘80s era, right?!

 

I won’t even raise a blatant error he made in his description of the Tinnerman Lofts project because it’s admittedly a bit of a personal pet peeve and ultimately insignificant to the overall story. However, it’s a lazy mistake and it’s a shame that we can’t expect more from our journalists these days. 

 

The lack of professional pride is sometimes astounding. 
 

/rant

 

I noticed all the Market Square mistakes when I read the article, but what was the Tinnerman Lofts description mistake?

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The article's description of the tax deal was also confusing.  In the first breath,  it stated that Council passed a 30-year TIF.  Then, a few paragraphs down, it stated that it was actually a 15-year tax abatement and then 15 more years of a $4M TIF.  I know these things are complicated, but I have no idea how this thing is supposed to work after finishing the article.

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Generally speaking City of Cleveland deals work this way:

 

100% tax abatement on residential portion for years 1- 15

Non-School TIF on commercial portion for years 1 - 30

Non-school TIF on residential for years 16 - 30

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42 minutes ago, freefourur said:

Generally speaking City of Cleveland deals work this way:

 

100% tax abatement on residential portion for years 1- 15

Non-School TIF on commercial portion for years 1 - 30

Non-school TIF on residential for years 16 - 30

 

Thank you. Just so I have this straight, the abatement on residential portion in years 1-15 includes abatement of school property taxes? And does the new development owner still pay existing property taxes on the previous value? I.E. Would they be paying the same property taxes going forward as the Market Square strip mall has been recently paying?

Edited by Boomerang_Brian
Clarification

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The 15-year abatement on residential includes school taxes. The taxes would be the same is my understanding. The abatement and TIF applies to the increase in value. 

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^ The unabated property tax is based on the assessed value of the underlying land. The assessed amount should reset based on the selling price of the plaza.

 

Harbor Pay paid $5.85 million for basically just the land so I'd argue the land tax should be higher than what is being paid now (land + existing plaza), but who knows how the county makes up the assessment. It'll probably end up being lower.

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19 hours ago, KJP said:

@Htsguy I think the reporter is confusing Market Square with the proposed TOD being pursued by Carnegie.

 

A lot of these projects can run together over time, but I thought I recalled the discussion of Market Square being eventually connected in addition to the duck island TOD.

 

A quick search yielded this article https://www.cleveland.com/business/2018/08/chicago-area_developer_has_gra.html

Quote

RTA also confirmed that its representatives met with Harbor Bay.

The cash-strapped transit agency doesn't have money allocated to renovate the Ohio City Rapid station. If there's any attempt to physically link the project to the station, a private developer would have to pay the bill. But RTA is willing to help a developer to find other sources of public or private money.

 

Perhaps that was the only indication that was possible in a later phase, I might go digging further.

 

Edit: That's the closest I'm seeing.

Edited by infrafreak
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Market Square was already a great name for this project. Gives a sense of place and ties it in with the neighborhood. Intro is a big step back.

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Yeah. Terrible name. Market South. Market Tower. Anything else really. Side note. This has as many residential units as Nucleus??

Edited by marty15

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