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ryanlammi

2020 Democratic Presidential Primary

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11 hours ago, SWOH said:

 

I don't really care if they are GOP talking points or not. It's just reality. I don't want to be distasteful back but I have to... you just don't get it.

 

The GOP says and does a lot of things that are dishonest, disingenuine, deceptive, and downright Orwellian to the point where a number of GOPers should be tried for treason and tarred and feathered if you want my honest opinion.

 

That being said, there's no proof that the percentage of people attending college classes will increase if free 4-year college is passed.

Given the fact Hillary proposed free community college, I have complete confidence any conventional Dem nominee will also push for it, and do a better job of arguing for it.

The rich will most certainly take their money somewhere else (see above)

I still have no interest in paying for infinite undergraduate college.

 

As for M4A WITH NO ALTERNATIVE, here's the Sanders plan for payment:

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/options-to-finance-medicare-for-all?inline=file

 

7.5 percent income-based premium paid by employers

Revenue raised: $3.9 trillion over ten years.

Businesses would save over $9,000 in health care costs for the average employee under this option

[agree this is a good idea, what I like about M4A is it gets businesses out of having to understand or care about healthcare. That's good for everyone. But we have to prove it first, because if it goes bad generations of people will turn against Democrats]

 

4 percent income-based premium paid by households

Revenue raised: $3.5 trillion over ten years.

The typical middle class family would save over $4,400 under this plan

[the math is sketchy... this would penalize people that have low max out of pocket fees. For instance, my last job I had a $1500 out of pocket max due to my status of being single. If I would make $100,000/yr, I'm going to pay more with this than I would with private insurance, and I would not get to choose my care]

 

Savings from Health Tax Expenditures

Revenue raised: $4.2 trillion over ten years.

[this is good, no reason to subsidize health care companies]

 

Make the Personal Income Tax More Progressive

Revenue raised: $1.8 trillion over ten years.

[this goes back to above.. .the rates here aren't severe compared to ~90% tax rates discussed above and by Bernie in interviews, etc.]

 

...the other points are more minor, so I'll leave them off.

The issue I have is these revenue figures are over ten years... will that actually cover the total cost?

I think the plan needs to account for the wealthy shifting money out of the US.

 

"Under conservative estimates, increase federal budget commitments by approximately $32.6 trillion during its first 10 years of full implementation"

SOURCE: https://www.factcheck.org/2018/08/the-cost-of-medicare-for-all/

 

You don't bother to counter any of the points on the college plans I made and instead whatabout to M4A.  Cool, cool.  Very normal.

 

Until you address the fact that you're arguing against a strawman, fear based talking point concocted by the GOP and acknowledge or even read the college proposals put forth by Bernie and Warren before you criticize them, there's no point in a discussion.  You're just here to rail against tuition free public college, facts be damned.  I've discussed and cited the proposals, not GOP talking points that aren't based upon those proposals at all.


Very Stable Genius

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12 hours ago, SWOH said:

It's the easiest example, but between how easy it is to become a citizen of some nations and how multicultural most of the Top 1% is anymore, it's not hard to get a good lawyer and divorce yourself from the US.

 

And to make it even worse, there's globalization. 

The rise of China has shown us how easy it is to pick up and move a factory out of the US to a place with more "business-friendly" (worker unfriendly) tax and wage conditions.

 

90% tax rates on any income bracket isn't playing smart... maybe 50% would be acceptable as an example.

 

The top 1% is 97% white.

 

Cite a single 2020 candidate proposing a 90% top marginal tax rate.


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13 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

I mean, the every day (as in, not the hyper aware, on Twitter constantly type of people) voters and volunteers for the campaigns are the only ones who could "cancel" (God help me for using that term) Pete's campaign over this issue.  And I've not really seen it amplified other than people saying "look at these dozen yahoos on Twitter who think this is a legitimate criticism."

 

Yeah, it's just that sometimes these people start to drive the dialogue and before you know it it's a debate question. Other thing is that cons are very effective at using those quotes from yahoo's to smear the left as a whole. 

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13 hours ago, SWOH said:

The world has changed entirely since the 1950s.

There are little tax havens all around the globe now... Ireland, the Cayman Islands, Bermuda... if companies move their HQs there, BAM! no longer American and no longer paying American taxes.

It's not like 70 years ago when your only option to have tax-free dollars would be a Swiss bank.

 

Same goes for citizenship... if your heritage is Jewish, you more than likely have the option to renounce your American citizenship and say you are Israeli.

It's the easiest example, but between how easy it is to become a citizen of some nations and how multicultural most of the Top 1% is anymore, it's not hard to get a good lawyer and divorce yourself from the US.

 

And to make it even worse, there's globalization. 

The rise of China has shown us how easy it is to pick up and move a factory out of the US to a place with more "business-friendly" (worker unfriendly) tax and wage conditions.

 

We don't live in the 1950s, the US isn't the supreme power anymore leading the world.

We are just one piece of it, and we have to play smart to keep our competitive advantage.

90% tax rates on any income bracket isn't playing smart... maybe 50% would be acceptable as an example.

 

 

Totally agree that the US is not the dominant power that we were in the 1950s.  There are a LOT of Americans who don't want to face that fact any more than they want to face their own unavoidable death, particularly on the right.  And that makes Trump's alienation of our allies all the more worrisome. 

 

Countries still control who can live within their borders.  Renounce your US citizenship and you'll lose the right to vote in the US.

 

Countries also control the flow of currency across their borders (although that may be changing it still isn't easy).  So you might make a lot of money in the US, but getting it out of the US is going to take some effort.

 

There will always be millionaires who decide to decamp to the French Riviera or wherever and can hire the attorneys and accountants to make it work.  But I still think that will be a minority.

 

I think we've allowed taxes at the top end to drop too far, and we've given away too much revenue in tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy.  At the end of the day, raising taxes on the wealthy is necessary to increase the quality of life of the poorest Americans -- yes, the wealthy pay more tax than anyone, but they also gain more from our system and have more to lose in its absence. 

 

Get rid of the cap on SS/Medicare so that we don't slide back to a high elderly poverty rate and homeless disabled rate and provide low cost medical insurance for everyone.

Impose high tax rates on estates.  I want an America that is a pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps, everyone has a relatively equal chance at success kind of country -- not a country where Daddy Warbucks allows several generations to slack off and slowly drain grandpa's wealth while the majority struggles to avoid poverty and class mobility is nil.

 

So I align more with Sanders and Warren, although I'm probably more fiscally conservative (I want social benefits over a mighty war machine, but we have to be able to afford them) but I think even Klobuchar would move us in the right direction. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Foraker said:

Countries still control who can live within their borders.  Renounce your US citizenship and you'll lose the right to vote in the US.

 

I like how the pervasive thought for over a generation now was that it would be those hippie liberals who would denounce the U.S. and move out of the country - many threatened to and some did after GWB and Trump.  But now we have a made up talking point that the top 1% might move themselves and/or their money out of the country if we tax them at historical rates.


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18 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/joe-biden-challenges-iowa-voter-to-a-push-up-contest-and-may-have-called-him-fat-2019-12-05

 

Joe Biden previewing his general election strategy if he's ever to be asked about his age or his son's work in Ukraine.  Cool, cool, cool.

 

What a bizarre scene that was. Not only did Biden call the guy "fat" - as a noun, as if it were his name - he yelled at him, he mocked his IQ, and he challenged him to a push up competition. 

 

Quote

Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden lashed out at a man on Thursday during an Iowa town hall, challenging him to an IQ test and calling him a liar. But many observers think the former vice president may have also mocked the man’s weight.

 

At one point during the heated confrontation that occurred when a voter asked about Hunter Biden's payments from a Ukrainian gas company, Joe Biden appeared to begin calling the man “fat” before catching himself.

 

When Biden said the word in question, a group of schoolchildren off-camera gasped, thinking the former VP did, indeed, call the man “fat”.

 

“Look, fat, look, here’s the deal,” Biden appears to have said near the end of the exchange, prompting the voter to tell Biden he lacks a backbone.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/joe-biden-fat-iowa-voter

 

Meanwhile, I saw this posted elsewhere online and thought it had to be made up, but the video confirms it is indeed a phrase Bloomberg uttered:

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Ram23 said:

 

What a bizarre scene that was. Not only did Biden call the guy "fat" - as a noun, as if it were his name - he yelled at him, he mocked his IQ, and he challenged him to a push up competition. 

 

 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/joe-biden-fat-iowa-voter

 

Meanwhile, I saw this posted elsewhere online and thought it had to be made up, but the video confirms it is indeed a phrase Bloomberg uttered:

 

 

 

 

 

Irony is dead among Cult 45, I guess

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3 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

 

What a bizarre scene that was. Not only did Biden call the guy "fat" - as a noun, as if it were his name - he yelled at him, he mocked his IQ, and he challenged him to a push up competition. 

 

 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/joe-biden-fat-iowa-voter

 

Meanwhile, I saw this posted elsewhere online and thought it had to be made up, but the video confirms it is indeed a phrase Bloomberg uttered:

 

 

 

 

All of a sudden Trumpers are worried about the decorum of presidential candidates.  How cute. 

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23 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

 

What a bizarre scene that was. Not only did Biden call the guy "fat" - as a noun, as if it were his name - he yelled at him, he mocked his IQ, and he challenged him to a push up competition. 

 

 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/joe-biden-fat-iowa-voter

 

Meanwhile, I saw this posted elsewhere online and thought it had to be made up, but the video confirms it is indeed a phrase Bloomberg uttered:

 

 

 

 

Not clear, but I think he said "fact" instead of "fat".

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24 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

 

What a bizarre scene that was. Not only did Biden call the guy "fat" - as a noun, as if it were his name - he yelled at him, he mocked his IQ, and he challenged him to a push up competition. 

 

 

Trump lies, Biden "misspeaks"

 

Trump bullies, Biden mocks

 

Very familiar faces on those two coins, eh?  Although I really would like to see Biden and Trump go at it on the debate stage in a push up competition....

 

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I have no idea what security costs should be for a top candidate in the Democratic primary. I'm curious if he has to spend more on security than people like Joe Biden, Elizabeth Warren, and Bernie Sanders since they are/were all high level elected officials at the federal level that probably get some security services supplied for them.

 

Maybe he just spends a lot on security though? I have no baseline. 

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2 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

They can park their money in North Dakota now. North Dakota isn't a place to make money but it sure is a good place to park it.

Judging by how much light pollution is given off there at night from all the natural gas plants leads me to believe that a lot of money is being made there.  https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2013/01/16/169511949/a-mysterious-patch-of-light-shows-up-in-the-north-dakota-dark

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2 hours ago, Ram23 said:

 

What a bizarre scene that was. Not only did Biden call the guy "fat" - as a noun, as if it were his name - he yelled at him, he mocked his IQ, and he challenged him to a push up competition. 

 

 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/joe-biden-fat-iowa-voter

 

Meanwhile, I saw this posted elsewhere online and thought it had to be made up, but the video confirms it is indeed a phrase Bloomberg uttered:

 

 

 

 

 

Given that behavior, Joe Biden must be moving in positive directions in your opinion.  If he makes fun of a disabled reporter, will you vote for him, or does he have to also pay off a hooker?

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1 hour ago, ryanlammi said:

I have no idea what security costs should be for a top candidate in the Democratic primary. I'm curious if he has to spend more on security than people like Joe Biden, Elizabeth Warren, and Bernie Sanders since they are/were all high level elected officials at the federal level that probably get some security services supplied for them.

 

Maybe he just spends a lot on security though? I have no baseline. 

 

He's gay, so I wouldn't be surprised if he needed more.  We're not the America we thought we were.

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4 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Given that behavior, Joe Biden must be moving in positive directions in your opinion.  If he makes fun of  body slams a disabled reporter, will you vote for him, or does he have to also pay off a hooker?

 FTFY.


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4 hours ago, Ram23 said:

What a bizarre scene that was. Not only did Biden call the guy "fat" - as a noun, as if it were his name - he yelled at him, he mocked his IQ, and he challenged him to a push up competition. 

 

Snowflake

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2 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Given that behavior, Joe Biden must be moving in positive directions in your opinion.  If he makes fun of a disabled reporter, will you vote for him, or does he have to also pay off a hooker?

 

but the Hunter Biden issue is going to keep coming up again and again, both among voters and with the media. Is he going to react this way every time? 

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49 minutes ago, eastvillagedon said:

 

but the Hunter Biden issue is going to keep coming up again and again, both among voters and with the media. Is he going to react this way every time? 

 

Yes, it will, so long as you all keep spreading the lie.  I mean, Biden needs to handle this better, for sure, but there’s a whole lot of people who also need some soul searching for attacking them. 

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I will do a more in-depth reply later to the comments above, but for now here’s a clip of how a presidential candidate should handle protestors:

 

 

Feel free to watch it through, but the moment to watch starts at 35:46

Edited by SWOH
Better link to video

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18 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Yes, it will, so long as you all keep spreading the lie.  I mean, Biden needs to handle this better, for sure, but there’s a whole lot of people who also need some soul searching for attacking them. 

 

who's spreading a lie? People are just asking for honest answers

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1 hour ago, eastvillagedon said:

People are just asking for honest answers

 

No, they're not. They're dishonestly latching on to something that, even worst case scenario, is not even 0.01% as bad as what Trump's done, and trying to use that to create an equivalency, to cover for this disastrous president.

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4 hours ago, eastvillagedon said:

 

who's spreading a lie? People are just asking for honest answers

 

You can dress it up however you want.  It's a debunked lie and you are helping do irreparable harm to our election integrity by dismissing all of our intelligence that says it's a lie.  And frankly, I don't think you even care one way or another.  There is no bottom to the depths Trump supporters will go in defense of him.  

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2 hours ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

I'd been dismissing Biden's remarks before but this one has me heated

 

 

 

Biden is doing badly even as the gaffe machine he normally is.  

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2 hours ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

I'd been dismissing Biden's remarks before but this one has me heated

 

 

 

He's campaigning like this is 30 years ago and Republicans weren't attempting to destroy democracy to stay in power.  If they never have power again, it will be too soon.  America probably does need more than 2 parties, but the GOP needs to die out.  

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3 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Biden is doing badly even as the gaffe machine he normally is.  

the annoying thing about this one is that it's not something he came up with out of thin air. it's an opinion shared by a significant portion of the Democratic party.

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On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 4:48 PM, jonoh81 said:

 

You can dress it up however you want.  It's a debunked lie and you are helping do irreparable harm to our election integrity by dismissing all of our intelligence that says it's a lie.  And frankly, I don't think you even care one way or another.  There is no bottom to the depths Trump supporters will go in defense of him.  

@eastvillagedon your post on a minor insignificant message board with a few dozen followers is doing irreparable harm to our election integrity and your post has proven that you are nothing more than a Russian Troll who is being paid off by Putin. You have been exposed as a Russian Troll who is using this forum and a thread on the 2020 Democratic candidates to push your agenda of getting Trump re-elected. What do you have to say for yourself?

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On 12/6/2019 at 3:59 PM, mu2010 said:

Snowflake

 

I don't think anyone was offended by what Biden said - which would, indeed, make them snowflakes - they were perplexed by the sudden and irrational rhetorical escalation. That's why I called it "bizarre," which is still the best word I can think of to describe the situation.  If a random guy with an obvious prod like that one was able to get under Biden's skin enough to make him spout off, imagine what a hothead he'll be when he has to stand on stage for an hour with Trump. Or, even worse, imagine what a hothead he would be if he ever has to deal with some major international conflict as commander in cheif.

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11 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

@eastvillagedon your post on a minor insignificant message board with a few dozen followers is doing irreparable harm to our election integrity and your post has proven that you are nothing more than a Russian Troll who is being paid off by Putin. You have been exposed as a Russian Troll who is using this forum and a thread on the 2020 Democratic candidates to push your agenda of getting Trump re-elected. What do you have to say for yourself?

 

You can mock all you like, but when millions of people, of which EVD is part of, are parroting lies that undermine our democracy, that is doing harm.  Trump supporters don't have to be Russian trolls being paid by Putin.  They're doing what he wants for free because Trump is doing it, and they've convinced themselves that they're actually putting American interests first.

The question is why you find it okay that people are spreading lies like this based off debunked conspiracy theories or that the real problem is calling those lies out?  

Edited by jonoh81

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54 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

You can mock all you like, but when millions of people, of which EVD is part of, are parroting lies that undermine our democracy, that is doing harm.  Trump supporters don't have to be Russian trolls being paid by Putin.  They're doing what he wants for free because Trump is doing it, and they've convinced themselves that they're actually putting American interests first.

The question is why you find it okay that people are spreading lies like this based off debunked conspiracy theories or that the real problem is calling those lies out?  

 Because I don't fear speech. Lies may circle the globe quickly but the truth will come out and rise to the top.

 

People need to work to be more contemplative and less reactionary. It may be a tall task for many I know.

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9 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

 Because I don't fear speech. Lies may circle the globe quickly but the truth will come out and rise to the top.

 

Yes, propaganda has never been successful in human history.


Very Stable Genius

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Much has been made in recent weeks about Pete's time at McKinsey, what he did, who his clients were, etc.  His campaign did a Friday night news dump, though they are still largely hiding behind the NDA.  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pete-buttigieg-mckinsey-2020-candidate-releases-detailed-timeline-of-work-at-mckinsey-today-2019-12-06/

 

Quote

2008

-Working in the Toronto area, I served a grocery and retail chain for approximately six months, analyzing the effects of price cuts on various combinations of items across their hundreds of stores.

 

That Canadian grocer was almost certainly Loblaw.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/j5vmxp/loblaw-says-sorry-for-fixing-bread-prices-for-14-years-with-a-dollar25-gift-card

 

Quote

Grocery behemoth Loblaw Cos. Ltd, owned by the billionaire Weston family, has admitted to colluding with other big grocery chains to fix the price of bread. This scheme has been ongoing since 2001 — Loblaw claims it alerted the Competition Bureau in March 2015, immediately after discovering the collusion, upon which the price-fixing stopped.

 

Of course, we have no way of knowing if Pete's work of "analyzing the effects of price cuts" was in any way tied to the price-fixing scheme because he won't release any details about his work.

 

Quote

2007

-Working in Michigan for my first study, I served a nonprofit health insurance provider for approximately three months, undertaking on-the-job training and performing analytical work as part of a team identifying savings in administration and overhead costs.  

 

According to Wendell Porter, a former healthcare exec, this is industry and corporate speak for cutting costs through layoffs, restructuring, and denying health coverage to those in need.  And don't be fooled by "nonprofit health insurance provider" - they behave in exactly the same way as "for profit" providers.  Blue Cross Blue Shield is a "non profit" health insurer in Michigan, for example.  They called in McKinsey in 2007, actually.  If it was BCBS, they laid off hundreds of people and dramatically increased premiums not long after McKinsey's consultation.  If it was BCBS, the Michigan AG had some things to say - https://www.michigan.gov/documents/ag/Blue_Cross_11.29.07_217273_7.pdf

 

But again, voters shouldn't be left guessing what a major candidate for President did for 3 years of work which ended less than a decade ago, work the candidate himself often cites as relevant experience suitable for a background to become President.


https://twitter.com/AmirAminiMD/status/1203821639131172869

 

^And here is Pete dismissing a voter's concern over taking donations from corporations and billionaires, despite Pete's own pledge to "fight the influence of big money in politics."

Edited by DarkandStormy

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