Jump to content

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, TheCOV said:

The updated story was front and center on NPR. Many outlets had the outcome after the FBI investigation. This isn't some lib-snowflake lunacy. There WAS a noose. Bubba has been outspoken about removing the flags. So it's not really that far fetched to think what might have happened. NASCAR released the information, so nobody including the boogieman media, made  "Fake News". 

The real story was the outpouring of support and a massive display of shared humanity. 

 

Honestly, I haven't been paying much attention to this, but my understanding is:

1) Crew member of Wallace's team notices the noose in their garage - no drivers are allowed in the garages right now.

2) Crew member notifies president of NASCAR.

3) President calls in Wallace for face-to-face meeting to tell him what was found in his garage.

4) I believe at some point a photograph is shared with Wallace of said noose.

 

From there, I'm sketchy on the details of any investigations conducted.  Obviously the FBI did get involved.


Very Stable Genius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Ultimately, the responsible party here is NASCAR for releasing a press release before they all the facts. They could have looked into it , had the FBI do their investigation and then come out with a statement that showed what was found, it was all about nothing, and that it was not a racial incident.  It would have saved 3 days of peoples anger and allowed people to react based on the facts

And shame on the media for making this front page news.  They really love to stir the pot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Honestly, I haven't been paying much attention to this, but my understanding is:

1) Crew member of Wallace's team notices the noose in their garage - no drivers are allowed in the garages right now.

2) Crew member notifies president of NASCAR.

3) President calls in Wallace for face-to-face meeting to tell him what was found in his garage.

4) I believe at some point a photograph is shared with Wallace of said noose.

 

From there, I'm sketchy on the details of any investigations conducted.  Obviously the FBI did get involved.

Was it a crew member or a Nascar official who discovered it in the garage on a walk by?

I think your understandings are pretty much correct though. FBI got involved at the behest of Nascar. 

 

Not sure who leaked the existence of it. Obviously, so many parties can leak such info and the press would eat it up, and it is going to get out before an investigation could be properly completed. While I may have blamed Nascar officials earlier, at the same time, I understand that the news was out by the time they essentially discovered it and and to react on the fly too. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Was it a crew member or a Nascar official who discovered it in the garage on a walk by?

I think your understandings are pretty much correct though. FBI got involved at the behest of Nascar. 

 

Not sure who leaked the existence of it. Obviously, so many parties can leak such info and the press would eat it up, and it is going to get out before an investigation could be properly completed. While I may have blamed Nascar officials earlier, at the same time, I understand that the news was out by the time they essentially discovered it and and to react on the fly too. 

 

It's been reported it was a crew member.  And for obvious reasons, the head of NASCAR wanted to let Wallace know.  From there, it could have leaked out from any number of people.  I'm sure Wallace let some of his friends and fellow drivers know.

 

NASCAR apparently took it to the FBI.  If, as Ram would have you believe, "cancel culture" was responsible and everyone within racing could spot it as a garage pull, why would the organization itself go to the FBI?  Perhaps it's because it's supposedly atypical for a garage pull to be fashioned like a noose as many are attesting they've never seen a garage pull tied in such a way?

 

Not every instance of apparent racism that turns out to be not blatant racism / hate act is because of "cancel culture."

Edited by DarkandStormy

Very Stable Genius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something was reported and investigated. It turned out to not be what was suspected. That happens sometimes. Not really a "wrong" party in this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Ram23 said:

 

 

This one, like most of these stories, turned out to be Fake News. As is par for the course, the retraction update will be on page 37 and reach about 10% of the people who read the original story:

 

https://www.nascar.com/news-media/2020/06/23/nascar-statement-on-fbi-investigation-at-talladega-superspeedway/

 

“The FBI has completed its investigation at Talladega Superspeedway and determined that Bubba Wallace was not the target of a hate crime. The FBI report concludes, and photographic evidence confirms, that the garage door pull rope fashioned like a noose had been positioned there since as early as last fall. This was obviously well before the 43 team’s arrival and garage assignment. We appreciate the FBI’s quick and thorough investigation and are thankful to learn that this was not an intentional, racist act against Bubba. We remain steadfast in our commitment to providing a welcoming and inclusive environment for all who love racing.”

 

I'm willing to bet that, when someone first made this claim about a noose, almost everyone looked at it and knew it was just the rope used to pull the garage door closed. Looking at the pictures of it - how could you not?  But, because of the cancel culture that pervades our society, no one wanted to speak up. They had to bring the FBI in.

 

I only heard of this BECAUSE of the story about it being a nothingburger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So in the Hamilton County Politics page I asked Brutus if it was racist to advocate for the murder of innocent black men. He replied with something to the effect of "depends on the context." That's pretty damn racist. 

 

Now my question and his response have been deleted and the thread is locked. The conversation was relevant to the Dusty Rhodes situation. Why would this be deleted?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thread was going massively off the rails so I deleted several pages worth of posts (from multiple members) and locked it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, taestell said:

The thread was going massively off the rails so I deleted several pages worth of posts (from multiple members) and locked it.

 

Well, for the record, before it was deleted, Brutus admitted that he believed it was okay to call for the murder of innocent black men "depending on the context."

 

EDIT: It was a direct question. "Do you believe it is racist to call for the murder of innocent black men?"

Edited by DEPACincy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where Wallace screwed up was by getting outraged by suggestions that it might not indeed be as it was portrayed.

 

TBH, while this seems like an innocent misunderstanding, a lot of these were frauds.   The Smollett case was the most famous, but it wasn't the first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect that particular door was harder to close than the others due to wear, needing maintenance, whatever, so they made a loop in it to get better grip. There are other knots that could have been used for that purpose though.

Edited by GCrites80s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

a) it's still trending on Twitter and was last night and is a top headline on ESPN.com, but go off.

b) Since "most of these stories" turn out to be "Fake News" (taking a capitalization class from POTUS?) please name another one that isn't Jussie Smollett.

 

Ram doesn't believe racism is real while supporting the most blatantly racist president since Woodrow Wilson.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

I suspect that particular door was harder to open than the others due to wear, needing maintenance, whatever, so they made a loop in it to get better grip. There are other knots that could have been used for that purpose though.

 

I think you're right, it was obviously just a pull handle because the dangling rope wasn't cutting it.

 

Also, if it were an actual noose, it wouldn't have worked very well as a handle, no? The pictures aren't great but I think it was just a bowline knot or something similar, but I'm not a boyscout so don't quote me on that.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

Since "most of these stories" turn out to be "Fake News" (taking a capitalization class from POTUS?) please name another one that isn't Jussie Smollett.

 

I love my 2-3x/weekly ritual of posing the most basic questions to conservatives/libertarians on this site which they ignore every time - I presume because they can't answer them.  Very cool discussion!


Very Stable Genius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Well, for the record, before it was deleted, Brutus admitted that he believed it was okay to call for the murder of innocent black men "depending on the context."

 

EDIT: It was a direct question. "Do you believe it is racist to call for the murder of innocent black men?"

Again, your question does not present the proper context, so you are being disingenuous. MOVE ON. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ram23 said:

 

I think you're right, it was obviously just a pull handle because the dangling rope wasn't cutting it.

 

Also, if it were an actual noose, it wouldn't have worked very well as a handle, no? The pictures aren't great but I think it was just a bowline knot or something similar, but I'm not a boyscout so don't quote me on that.

 

 

Not even close to a bowline. 

 

Definitely tied to look like a noose, although an actual noose (a strong slip knot) would not be ideal as a pull handle.  Nooses only have one message in our society -- even if it was tied in October, and even if it was tied that way "as a joke" -- it was racist and whoever thought it was ok was wrong. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Foraker said:

 

Not even close to a bowline. 

 

Definitely tied to look like a noose, although an actual noose (a strong slip knot) would not be ideal as a pull handle.  Nooses only have one message in our society -- even if it was tied in October, and even if it was tied that way "as a joke" -- it was racist and whoever thought it was ok was wrong. 

I don't think we should be going so far as declaring a type of knot a racist symbol. Yes, there is a history with nooses. but again they are an inanimate object. As this case has shown, context matters.  Let's keep some perspective and keep things in context. Someone tied a handle on a door back  a year ago in a noose like form (we dont know if it was an actual noose tie or even similar to a noose tie, sometimes, what some people may call a noose actually isn't). Unless you know the intent, you cant call it racist. Clearly, there was no intent against Bubba Wallace, we can all agree on that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I don't think we should be going so far as declaring a type of knot a racist symbol. Yes, there is a history with nooses. but again they are an inanimate object.

 

Nooses are without question a racist symbol.  I don't know, nor do I care, if there was a noose in Bubba Wallace's garage but the actual noose is a symbol of hate.  Much like the swastika, an "inanimate object or symbol" corrupted by a hate group.

 

This shouldn't have to be explained in 2020.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Foraker said:

 

Not even close to a bowline. 

 

Definitely tied to look like a noose, although an actual noose (a strong slip knot) would not be ideal as a pull handle.  Nooses only have one message in our society -- even if it was tied in October, and even if it was tied that way "as a joke" -- it was racist and whoever thought it was ok was wrong. 

 

You have no idea whether or not it was "tied to look like a noose." You're making an assumption as to someone's intent. What you really mean is that in some of the grainy photos it had a slight resemblance to a noose, in your opinion. In reality it's probably just someone's bad attempt at a knot of some sort so that they could close the garage door more easily. Whoever tied it probably wasn't a boy scout, either.

 

But it is indeed 2020, so I suppose we should all be careful about what sort of knots we tie so as to ensure no one takes them the wrong way.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

You have no idea whether or not it was "tied to look like a noose." You're making an assumption as to someone's intent. What you really mean is that in some of the grainy photos it had a slight resemblance to a noose, in your opinion. In reality it's probably just someone's bad attempt at a knot of some sort so that they could close the garage door more easily. Whoever tied it probably wasn't a boy scout, either.

 

It's not an opinion.  The FBI literally said it was tied like a noose.

 

Anyway, look forward to your answers to all my previous questions since you're a functioning adult!


Very Stable Genius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

 

Nooses are without question a racist symbol.  I don't know, nor do I care, if there was a noose in Bubba Wallace's garage but the actual noose is a symbol of hate.  Much like the swastika, an "inanimate object or symbol" corrupted by a hate group.

 

This shouldn't have to be explained in 2020.

The problem is, what constitutes a noose? It is a type of knot. There are many types of knots some are nooses others have similarities to them. Some people may think a knot is a noose when it is not. Also, there are practical purposes for using a noose as a knot besides hanging a person. Contrast that with a swastika which is just a symbol and serves no practical utilitarian purpose.. Today there is no practical purpose for a swastika besides a symbol of hate. While a noose has many negative consequences in history, you can't make the same blanket statement about nooses as you can about a swastika

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

The problem is, what constitutes a noose? It is a type of knot. There are many types of knots some are nooses others have similarities to them. Some people may think a knot is a noose when it is not. Also, there are practical purposes for using a noose as a knot besides hanging a person. Contrast that with a swastika which is just a symbol and serves no practical utilitarian purpose.. Today there is no practical purpose for a swastika besides a symbol of hate. While a noose has many negative consequences in history, you can't make the same blanket statement about nooses as you can about a swastika

 

The racism and context understander has logged on.


Very Stable Genius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Today there is no practical purpose for a swastika besides a symbol of hate.

Umm... you mean apart from the the couple of billion people who follow a variety of non-Judeo-Christian religions...?


And they reckon that the last thing she saw in her life was
Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

Umm... you mean apart from the the couple of billion people who follow a variety of non-Judeo-Christian religions...?

Ok, I stand to be corrected. If there is a practical purpose for the use of a swastika, then in the proper context it would be ok.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Yes, there is a history with nooses. but again they are an inanimate object.

 

A burning cross is also an inanimate object, so I don't think you have a point.

 

This looked to be a "hangman's knot" (otherwise known as a "hangman's noose"), not a "bowline knot."  I don't know what the purpose of someone doing this in October would be.  Either they were being racist or they are just dumb and don't know how to make a proper bowline knot.  There's probably no way to find out for sure.

 

One thing that would indicate to me that they were just trying to make the rope easier to pull (other than the fact that nobody knew who would be assigned to this garage now back in October) is that the loop is so small.  If you were making a noose, it would have to be considerably larger.  Or the person could have been being racist and also bad at making hangman's knots.  Again, no way to find out for sure.

Edited by jam40jeff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could go in multiple threads, but since they didn't act out the violence (yet).....   I would be interesting to see a history of their arrest patterns.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, jam40jeff said:

 

A burning cross is also an inanimate object, so I don't think you have a point.

 

This looked to be a "hangman's knot" (otherwise known as a "hangman's noose"), not a "bowline knot."  I don't know what the purpose of someone doing this in October would be.  Either they were being racist or they are just dumb and don't know how to make a proper bowline knot.  There's probably no way to find out for sure.

 

One thing that would indicate to me that they were just trying to make the rope easier to pull (other than the fact that nobody knew who would be assigned to this garage now back in October) is that the loop is so small.  If you were making a noose, it would have to be considerably larger.  Or the person could have been being racist and also bad at making hangman's knots.  Again, no way to find out for sure.

A burning cross is a symbol. There is almost no practical purpose to have a burning cross. Now, even then context matters. A burning cross because it was struck by lightening is obviously different than one set on fire. A knot 

 

Without seeing the actual knot on the door, we are all left to speculate as to the true context of it. Before always going to the worst possible conclusion, we should probably step back and consider the alternatives first and try and give the benefit of the doubt when we can.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

spacer.png

 

Photo of an inanimate object being torn down.

 

"Oh no, how will they remember their history???"

and as mentioned, context matters. The context of tearing down the Berlin wall matters. 

 

They could have been a photo of a graffiti covered wall outside of a a prison. Tearing down that wall is not the same thing. All walls are not equal. Context matters. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Again, your question does not present the proper context, so you are being disingenuous. MOVE ON. 

 

WTF?  How can you not answer the question "Do you believe it is racist to call for the murder of innocent black men?"?  What more context could be needed there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, jam40jeff said:

 

WTF?  How can you not answer the question "Do you believe it is racist to call for the murder of innocent black men?"?  What more context could be needed there?

This was in another thread, he was asking to respond to the Tweets of Dusty Rhoades which he paraphrased. When he posted that on this site it removes the context of the debate and because he is trying to frame this as something it is not, I am not going to dignify him with a response. His post is out of context, not intended as a point to engage or further discussion, and is not worthy to be dignified with a response for that reason.

 

He is taking a debate on a different thread and trying to apply here, which is inappropriate.

Edited by Brutus_buckeye

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

The problem is, what constitutes a noose? It is a type of knot. There are many types of knots some are nooses others have similarities to them. Some people may think a knot is a noose when it is not. Also, there are practical purposes for using a noose as a knot besides hanging a person. Contrast that with a swastika which is just a symbol and serves no practical utilitarian purpose.. Today there is no practical purpose for a swastika besides a symbol of hate. While a noose has many negative consequences in history, you can't make the same blanket statement about nooses as you can about a swastika

 

But I can.  A swastika, as pointed out earlier, has purpose in other religions, particularly in Asia.  In American context, a noose AND a swastika are historically symbols of hate.  We call ropes with types of knots...a knot, not a noose, for this reason. 

 

You talk about context, language is context.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

 

But I can.  A swastika, as pointed out earlier, has purpose in other religions, particularly in Asia.  In American context, a noose AND a swastika are historically symbols of hate.  We call ropes with types of knots...a knot, not a noose, for this reason. 

 

You talk about context, language is context.

The "noose" term is perfect example. What some people see as a knot, others see as a noose. It is in the eye of the beholder, which is why the context matters.

As you point out, in Asia, the Swastika has a purpose in religion and is respected. In the US it has a different connotation. 

 

My point from the beginning was that we cannot take the object like a Knot on its own and declare it racist without any additional context. Even if the not is in the form of what some people may consider to be noose like, there is still context that matters to determine the true intent.  Our initial thoughts may be to go to the worst possible scenario, but we need to pause and think first and examine the potential scenarios before passing judgement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's amazing how little racism white conservatives really see in the world compared to how much there really is.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

As you point out, in Asia, the Swastika has a purpose in religion and is respected. In the US it has a different connotation. 

 

Incredible that conservatives won't acknowledge the connotation or context when the "OK" hand sign is used by white supremacists lmao


Very Stable Genius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

It's amazing how little racism white conservatives really see in the world compared to how much there really is.  

Funny how you think I am a "white conservative" you really don't know me or my ancestry.

It is just ignorant or convenient for you to assume things to meet your worldview and narrative. 

 

4 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Incredible that conservatives won't acknowledge the connotation or context when the "OK" hand sign is used by white supremacists lmao

The OK hand sign is not a universal racist symbol. Again, you take something and try and act like the thing is racist no matter what the context is. Context matters. It could be someone holding up an OK sign, it could be someone holding up 3 fingers. Acting like every time a person uses an OK symbol that person is racist is just ignorant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

The OK hand sign is not a universal racist symbol. Again, you take something and try and act like the thing is racist no matter what the context is. Context matters. It could be someone holding up an OK sign, it could be someone holding up 3 fingers. Acting like every time a person uses an OK symbol that person is racist is just ignorant.

 

The white supremacists are the ones literally saying they're holding it up as a "white power" sign.  What more "context" do you need JFC

 

Also...I said "when white supremacists" use it.  Not "every time a person uses an OK symbol."  Your reading comprehension is poor.

Edited by DarkandStormy

Very Stable Genius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Cleburger said:

Could go in multiple threads, but since they didn't act out the violence (yet).....   I would be interesting to see a history of their arrest patterns.  

 

 

 

But what was the context of these comments? Brutus desperately wants to know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

It is in the eye of the beholder, which is why the context matters.

 

18 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

 Unless you know the intent, you cant call it racist. 

 

It's only racist if you know the intent and it's only racist if it's racist in the eye of the beholder who can never know the intent.  Racism is dead!


Very Stable Genius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FYI, here's a better image of the object, released by NASCAR. Considering the circumstances (BLM protests, Bubba Wallace speaking out, Confederate flag banned, etc), if I walked into Wallace's garage and saw this, I would immediately think it was intended to send a message and report it. I can, at the same time, believe it was there long before Wallace moved into the garage and it was not intended to intimidate him. But this is quite the object to find when you open up a garage. I would be surprised if this was a common "knot" to find in a NASCAR garage. This can't be written off as just the media over-hyping things. 

image.thumb.png.ada600819d60aa8f70f75482b3af7700.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

This was in another thread, he was asking to respond to the Tweets of Dusty Rhoades which he paraphrased. When he posted that on this site it removes the context of the debate and because he is trying to frame this as something it is not, I am not going to dignify him with a response. His post is out of context, not intended as a point to engage or further discussion, and is not worthy to be dignified with a response for that reason.

 

He is taking a debate on a different thread and trying to apply here, which is inappropriate.

 

I wasn't asking you to weigh in on Dusty at that point. I wanted to know, hypothetically, if someone calls for the murder of an innocent black man, is that racist? You refused to answer in the other thread, going on about "context" instead. And now you refuse to answer in this thread, which is an entire thread about racism. 

 

It is amazing how you are twisting yourself in knots to try not to answer a simple question. I've honestly never seen anything like it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

FYI, here's a better image of the object, released by NASCAR. Considering the circumstances (BLM protests, Bubba Wallace speaking out, Confederate flag banned, etc), if I walked into Wallace's garage and saw this, I would immediately think it was intended to send a message and report it. I can, at the same time, believe it was there long before Wallace moved into the garage and it was not intended to intimidate him. But this is quite the object to find when you open up a garage. I would be surprised if this was a common "knot" to find in a NASCAR garage. This can't be written off as just the media over-hyping things. 

 

I'm not going to pretend to be a garage pull expert because I'm not.  I barely follow NASCAR.  Most people in that area have said it's a very unusual way of tying the rope.  But it seems pretty obvious, unless both NASCAR and the FBI botched their investigations, that it was tied last year or some time well before last weekend.

 

I didn't follow much of the media coverage, other than a lot of people highlighting the "solidarity" walk before the race.  So I haven't commented on whether the media went overboard because I wasn't paying attention at all.


Very Stable Genius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...