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Toxic Masculinity

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A new Gillette ad encourages American men to not to hurt others or be selfish pricks. So how did conservatives inflicted with toxic masculinity respond? Read the responses to the Reason Foundation's (of all places!) tweet. What a f*cked up country we live in....

 

 

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In 1976, the City of Cleveland issued NINE building permits. NINE. When we start to feel down about the progress of development here vs. other cities, remember how lifeless Cleveland was and how far it's come.

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Does the ad actually say "toxic masculinity?"  The problem with that term is the generalization, the stereotyping.  It's like trying to stop racism by calling it "toxic whiteness."

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No it doesn't. The hateful response to it does.

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In 1976, the City of Cleveland issued NINE building permits. NINE. When we start to feel down about the progress of development here vs. other cities, remember how lifeless Cleveland was and how far it's come.

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So I heard about the ad... and I was expecting some over the top Politically Correct BS, to be honest - which really does bug me from time to time...

 

But I watched it and was genuinely confused how anyone could be offended. It quite literally promoted what I was raised to believe a gentleman was and should do: "Don't pick on those weaker than you, don't cat call women, and don't put your hands on other people." 

 

If you were offended by it it's because you have a guilty conscience and thought the ad targeted you. 

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^ I can understand being upset about PC stuff occasionally being over the top.  To me, it seems the response to things perceived to be PC is actually way worse. Just my .02.

Edited by freefourur

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^Yeah, I usually get upset when political correctness promotes a certain, isolated part of an ideology  or even intentionally excludes one group of people for the promotion of another... But even then, I don't call for a boycott, I just go, "Oh, that's kind of stupid."

 

I'm not sure what is politically charged about a message to treat others with respect... 

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"That's because them damn lib'ruls are trying to chop off my family jewels!"


In 1976, the City of Cleveland issued NINE building permits. NINE. When we start to feel down about the progress of development here vs. other cities, remember how lifeless Cleveland was and how far it's come.

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1 minute ago, KJP said:

"That's because them damn lib'ruls are trying to chop off my family jewels!"

 

I'll be honest, at the risk of being attacked for it. I do think that masculinity is unfairly attacked quite often - and I think certain masculine qualities have a lot to offer the world and can serve to be a good role model for kids. 

 

Nonetheless, if you see an ad that is trying to prevent sexual harassment of women and say "They're killing my manhood!" You've got a warped sense of what it means to be masculine. 

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Oh I love competitiveness. I teach my son to be a little bit cocky in his futsal classes, especially since he's playing against older, bigger kids who are faster and stronger. But being impolite or outright bullying aren't competitiveness. At the end, you thank them for a good game. I also teach him to let his mommy through the door first or to order dinner first because she's a lady. And you never, ever strike a woman.

 

EDIT: the hard part is telling him why he shouldn't have a foul mouth like his daddy. I've really cut down on what comes out of my bad mouth, but even good Browns games turn me into a raving lunatic!

Edited by KJP
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In 1976, the City of Cleveland issued NINE building permits. NINE. When we start to feel down about the progress of development here vs. other cities, remember how lifeless Cleveland was and how far it's come.

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When I hear the phrase toxic masculinity I think about the pressure to act in a certain way and only a certain way to "be a man." When we should be teaching our boys that there isn't one way to be a man. And bullying, harassment, and ignoring these behaviors in others is not part of being a man.

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A guy in my office is pissed at this and all about the P&G boycott. It is stupid.

 

I don't like the ad  in general and as a consumer I am offended by it, because it the advertiser is trying to tell me how I need to feel about an issue, whether I may or may not agree with them.

 

People had an outcry on the Nike/Kaepernick ad last Fall but This goes way further than the Nike Kaepernick ad did. Nike was saying, here is where we stand on an issue, regardless how you do, you can agree with us or disagree, but have conviction in something. Even if you hated Kaep, you can agree that the premise of the ad was good. You may disagree with Nike's stand on siding with Kaep, but they never came out and said that you have to agree with them, they let you make your own opinion on the matter.

 

 In the Gilette ad, Gilettte is telling people how they need to stand on an issue.  You are telling your target market that they are a bunch of jerks. That is what I personally find offensive about it. They come out and say that men are the problem and they need to clean up their act. "boys will be Boy's" is not an acceptable response to anything. It is poor and pathetic to preach this to men, over 90% practice good behavior and provide good leadership to their children. 

 

Will I boycott P&G over this, of course not. The ad does not want to make me buy their razors of course.

 

However, their razors and brand were long suffering anyway. This could be really an attempt to get more market share out of the female razor market because they recognize they have already lost the male market. 3 years ago they had over 70% market share and today it is less than 50%. The demise of Gilette will not be over the stupid ad, it will be because of Harry's, Dollar Shave and other areas. in the next 3 years Gillette will become primarily a women's hygiene company. I think this ad plays to that growing reality.

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7 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I'll be honest, at the risk of being attacked for it. I do think that masculinity is unfairly attacked quite often - and I think certain masculine qualities have a lot to offer the world and can serve to be a good role model for kids. 

 

Nonetheless, if you see an ad that is trying to prevent sexual harassment of women and say "They're killing my manhood!" You've got a warped sense of what it means to be masculine. 

 

I'm not going to attack you, but I am curious about this. Can you give examples where masculinity is attacked? I would argue the opposite. It is often glorified. Action heroes, professional wrestling, sports, etc. Look at how popular Dwayne Johnson is. Look at how popular Nick Offerman became with his manly persona. I don't think any of this is a problem, btw. I love Offerman and The Rock and sports and all that. I love all the masculine aspects of those things and see no problem with glorifying them. But toxic masculinity is a different thing altogether. You'll never see Nick Offerman degrade or harass a woman. He's very masculine, yet he is respectful and dignified--and that is why people love him. 

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2 minutes ago, 327 said:

The problem lies in assigning genders to personality traits.

Isn't that what the whole idea of masculinity and femininity are.  We as a society assign certain behaviors and traits that are acceptable from each gender.  I think the more recent moves are to leave these ideas behind as constricting and antiquated.  

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I think the problem is that the ad associates these "toxic" traits with most males and calls out the majority of the population as the problem. That is why people are offended by it.

 

The thing is, yes, there are a bunch of real aholes out there, both male and female. There are men who exhibit this behavior, however, the vast majority of men would not tolerate this and if they witness it they would stop it. Did Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby engage in their behavior in the open? No, they waited until it was just them and their victims alone. They do not represent the majority of men. The majority of men are not rapists or harassers and the video attempts to portray them as part of that element simple because they are men.  --- o and buy my product too.

 

That is the offensive thing about the video

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2 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I think the problem is that the ad associates these "toxic" traits with most males and calls out the majority of the population as the problem. That is why people are offended by it.

 

The thing is, yes, there are a bunch of real aholes out there, both male and female. There are men who exhibit this behavior, however, the vast majority of men would not tolerate this and if they witness it they would stop it. Did Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby engage in their behavior in the open? No, they waited until it was just them and their victims alone. They do not represent the majority of men. The majority of men are not rapists or harassers and the video attempts to portray them as part of that element simple because they are men.  --- o and buy my product too.

 

That is the offensive thing about the video

Talk about misconstruing everything.  Geez

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1 minute ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

because in general men and women are inherently different.

Just because men and women are biologically different doesn't mean that societies ideas of gender are correct and should never change. 

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^^Where does it say all men exhibit toxic masculinity? It never says that. Also, I really don't think most men would stop a guy from catcalling or being a creep. They might intervene if things get especially physical or dangerous, but most men ignore the "lesser" offenses even if they think it's wrong.

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1 minute ago, 327 said:

The problem lies in assigning genders to personality traits.

 

Bingo. And @DEPACincy here's a couple instances of it:

 

1. Law school, Spring 2016 - I held the door for a group of young women coming into the building from Euclid and was told "We don't need your help opening the door. Just so you know, this is outmoded and designed to make women subordinate."

 

2. Two months ago, November 2018 - I told one of my players on my basketball team that it's important to distinguish between being injured or feeling hurt. Being injured, I explained, should always be dealt with seriously, including a trip to the doctor and probably other medical attention, including rest and recovery. Being hurt, I went on to say, is something all athletes deal with - from soreness, to fatigue, to bruising, etc. and that it's important to teach yourself how to overcome those factors, as toughness will help him get to new goals he had set that would be unattainable without some pain and heartache. 

 

A week later, an email from a mother circulated stating that I had been attempting to assert my idea of manliness onto her son and that he didn't need affirmation from a male figure anyways. My point was, in order for him to reach his potential, as an athlete, professional, student, and person, was going to require working through uncomfortable conditions and situations. 

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3 minutes ago, freefourur said:

Isn't that what the whole idea of masculinity and femininity are.  We as a society assign certain behaviors and traits that are acceptable from each gender.  I think the more recent moves are to leave these ideas behind as constricting and antiquated.  

 

Then there's no such thing as toxic masculinity.  Instead there are toxic traits and behaviors.

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^ Talk about misconstruing everything.

Never said that. In general the majority of women tend to be more feminine and majority of men display more masculine traits. Is that true for all, of course not.

Does that mean we can recognize that and make accommodations where needed, of course. But making accommodations, does not mean upending everything from the ground up

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^^ Yes but certain toxic traits and behavior are more prevalent in men because of the social pressures of men to behave only in specific ways. (ex. bottling up emotions, being "tough", etc.) This doesn't mean that men or masculinity is bad it means that a specific form of it is bad. 

Edited by freefourur
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1 minute ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

^ Talk about misconstruing everything.

Never said that. In general the majority of women tend to be more feminine and majority of men display more masculine traits. Is that true for all, of course not.

Does that mean we can recognize that and make accommodations where needed, of course. But making accommodations, does not mean upending everything from the ground up

What is being upended here?  

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1 minute ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

^ Talk about misconstruing everything.

Never said that. In general the majority of women tend to be more feminine and majority of men display more masculine traits. Is that true for all, of course not.

Does that mean we can recognize that and make accommodations where needed, of course. But making accommodations, does not mean upending everything from the ground up

 

Yeah I'm with Brutus here, I don't think he ever said or implied that... 

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2 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

Yeah I'm with Brutus here, I don't think he ever said or implied that... 

Said or implied what?  I'm confused here

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4 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

Bingo. And @DEPACincy here's a couple instances of it:

 

1. Law school, Spring 2016 - I held the door for a group of young women coming into the building from Euclid and was told "We don't need your help opening the door. Just so you know, this is outmoded and designed to make women subordinate."

 

2. Two months ago, November 2018 - I told one of my players on my basketball team that it's important to distinguish between being injured or feeling hurt. Being injured, I explained, should always be dealt with seriously, including a trip to the doctor and probably other medical attention, including rest and recovery. Being hurt, I went on to say, is something all athletes deal with - from soreness, to fatigue, to bruising, etc. and that it's important to teach yourself how to overcome those factors, as toughness will help him get to new goals he had set that would be unattainable without some pain and heartache. 

 

A week later, an email from a mother circulated stating that I had been attempting to assert my idea of manliness onto her son and that he didn't need affirmation from a male figure anyways. My point was, in order for him to reach his potential, as an athlete, professional, student, and person, was going to require working through uncomfortable conditions and situations. 

The problem lies with the people who try and find offense or take offense with your good deeds.

 

Your basketball example rings home to me all the time. My son is a bit of a drama queen and exacerbates his pain or symptoms a lot and have to explain to him all the time that you fight through these ailments and tough it out. When you are really sick or really injured that is one thing. Kudos to you for your effort there. The kid's mother is the problem there. We need to teach our kids to be resilient.

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6 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

^^Where does it say all men exhibit toxic masculinity? It never says that. Also, I really don't think most men would stop a guy from catcalling or being a creep. They might intervene if things get especially physical or dangerous, but most men ignore the "lesser" offenses even if they think it's wrong.

 

I used to be guilty of ignoring catcalling when I saw it too. I viewed it as harmless fun.  That is toxic masculinity.  I viewed the catcalling as a boys will be boys behavior.  I am learning too. 

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Just now, freefourur said:

^ Yes but certain toxic traits and behavior are more prevalent in men because of the social pressures of men to behave only in specific ways. (ex. bottling up emotions, being "tough", etc.) This doesn't mean that men or masculinity is bad it means that a specific form of it is bad. 

 

I would argue there's a value in "toughness" and it need not equate to aggression or cruelty.  Either way, the gender of the person exhibiting the trait is simply not relevant.

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^ it is relevant because it is a trait that society associates with masculinity.  When someone tells you to be a "man." what does that phrase mean?  Did they mean to say exhibit a specific behavior that is not associated with a gender?  

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1 minute ago, 327 said:

 

I would argue there's a value in "toughness" and it need not equate to aggression or cruelty.  Either way, the gender of the person exhibiting the trait is simply not relevant.

 

It's also worth noting that I know women who are tough as nails as well

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10 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

Bingo. And @DEPACincy here's a couple instances of it:

 

1. Law school, Spring 2016 - I held the door for a group of young women coming into the building from Euclid and was told "We don't need your help opening the door. Just so you know, this is outmoded and designed to make women subordinate."

 

2. Two months ago, November 2018 - I told one of my players on my basketball team that it's important to distinguish between being injured or feeling hurt. Being injured, I explained, should always be dealt with seriously, including a trip to the doctor and probably other medical attention, including rest and recovery. Being hurt, I went on to say, is something all athletes deal with - from soreness, to fatigue, to bruising, etc. and that it's important to teach yourself how to overcome those factors, as toughness will help him get to new goals he had set that would be unattainable without some pain and heartache. 

 

A week later, an email from a mother circulated stating that I had been attempting to assert my idea of manliness onto her son and that he didn't need affirmation from a male figure anyways. My point was, in order for him to reach his potential, as an athlete, professional, student, and person, was going to require working through uncomfortable conditions and situations. 

In your case Yabo, I think the parent overreacted to what you told the athletes.  I think if you were coaching a girls sports team you would give them the same advice and it is good advice. 

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1 minute ago, YABO713 said:

 

It's also worth noting that I know women who are tough as nails as well

Yes, but that type of behavior is generally frowned upon from women.  But it is expected from men.  That's the whole problem.  It is OK for a man to be sensitive and it is OK for a woman to be "tough"

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13 minutes ago, freefourur said:

^ it is relevant because it is a trait that society associates with masculinity.  When someone tells you to be a "man." what does that phrase mean?  Did they mean to say exhibit a specific behavior that is not associated with a gender?  

 

If they're wrong, then so is the phrase toxic masculinity.  So is every statement that attaches bad behaviors to either half of the human race by gender.  We can't have it both ways. 

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There are 2 things going on here. Men being Men and Women being women, there is always going to be some expectation that men act more masculine and women act more feminine. It just is the fact that the majority of men and majority of women exhibit those traits.

 

Now majority is not everyone and of course we need to recognize that not everyone falls into these neat/ succinct categories. We need to be aware  that certain guys will be more sensitive and that is ok and certain women will be more manly, and that is ok too.

 

Now the other pressure at play here is the conformity issue. Even if, as society we are more open and accepting of these traits, the other challenge is that the people who tend to be more sensitive do not conform to the majority and are always fighting the internal battle for that conformity.  The sensitive boy,  may be accepted for his sensitivity, but feels out of place with general society because he struggles with his desire to be who he is yet try and conform to the majority.

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In response to this ad, Piers Morgan tweeted, "Let boys be damn boys. Let men be damn men." People like Piers believe that men are inherently horndogs because we have testosterone flowing through our bodies, and that's a valid excuse for catcalling and much worse. That's what the phrase "toxic masculinity" refers to. It's absolutely real.

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4 minutes ago, taestell said:

In response to this ad, Piers Morgan tweeted, "Let boys be damn boys. Let men be damn men." People like Piers believe that men are inherently horndogs because we have testosterone flowing through our bodies, and that's a valid excuse for catcalling and much worse. That's what the phrase "toxic masculinity" refers to. It's absolutely real.

 

But you don't believe those traits are properly masculine.  Piers Morgan does.  So what's toxic is Piers Morgan and the thinking he represents, to which masculinity is not bound.  I think this is a crucial distinction to make-- we can't defeat the problem if we can't identify it beyond pointing at 4 billion people.

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1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

^Yeah, I usually get upset when political correctness promotes a certain, isolated part of an ideology  or even intentionally excludes one group of people for the promotion of another... But even then, I don't call for a boycott, I just go, "Oh, that's kind of stupid."

 

I'm not sure what is politically charged about a message to treat others with respect... 

 

This is literally what a lot of us liberals wonder when people spend hours complaining about "out of control PC culture!!!!". 

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^ I think people take issue with the fact that the commercial shows 2 boys wrestling and engaging in rough house behavior and calling such behavior toxic.

 

There is a clear line between boys being boys and toxic behavior and that is what angers a lot of the many good men out there.

 

Boys will be boys is fine. When my boys wrestle and fight, or climb out on a tree limb, or are making a mess in the mud, that is boys being boys. We don't want to discourage this.

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