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Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)

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14 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:


I live close by, and I see kids there all the time. Unlike the basketball courts that have caused such a fuss on Main north of Rothenberg. I almost never see anyone at those courts (they are terrible, so I'm not too surprised).

 


It's complicated, but they did Ziegler and Washington Park because they generate revenues via the parking garages. I don't think a parking garage under Findlay Playground is as profitable. The lack of a plan by CRC regarding Findlay Playground throws up red flags. It sounds like per @mcmicken we don't need to worry about it and they should be reopening the park, but it's just a little suspicious. Plus, there isn't a lot of moneyed interests around Findlay Playground that want this space preserved like there was around Ziegler and Washington Parks. It might appear to be a chance for them to do something different if they get the city's blessing.

 

I think there would be a ton of pushback, but it's the only one I see as possible to convert to a development since they already closed it for over a year with no plan and haven't gotten that much pushback. It could be that they are testing the waters for removing it entirely.

 

But that's speculation on my part. 


just to be clear, those parks were not done as a mechanism for parking revenue, however they were done because parking provides revenue. If you do a little research you will find that the revenue from those garages keeps those parks active and clean and the spaces still operate in the red.  If the parks had the right amount of funding from the city to operate, it would have been immensely cheaper to not build the garages. Not ignoring the fact that parking capacity helps surrounding development but there are definitely cheaper ways to build parking if you are only in it for profit. 
 

i agree it’s isn’t the same scenario NoL but the market certainly can draw crowds. 

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31 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:


I live close by, and I see kids there all the time. Unlike the basketball courts that have caused such a fuss on Main north of Rothenberg. I almost never see anyone at those courts (they are terrible, so I'm not too surprised).

 


It's complicated, but they did Ziegler and Washington Park because they generate revenues via the parking garages. I don't think a parking garage under Findlay Playground is as profitable. The lack of a plan by CRC regarding Findlay Playground throws up red flags. It sounds like per @mcmicken we don't need to worry about it and they should be reopening the park, but it's just a little suspicious. Plus, there isn't a lot of moneyed interests around Findlay Playground that want this space preserved like there was around Ziegler and Washington Parks. It might appear to be a chance for them to do something different if they get the city's blessing.

 

I think there would be a ton of pushback, but it's the only one I see as possible to convert to a development since they already closed it for over a year with no plan and haven't gotten that much pushback. It could be that they are testing the waters for removing it entirely.

 

But that's speculation on my part. 

And to clarify, just because CRC says they are opening the park again doesn't mean it will happen. And honestly, it has been frustrating working with them because while they closed the park to get a handle on the crime, there hasn't really been much work to keep it from happening again when it re-opens. We were promised improvements when they closed it but literally outside of knocking down a few walls to improve sightlines, nothing has been done.

 

There are a lot of potential moving pieces, including the rec center, Findlay Park, Grant Park, Findlay parking lots, and the leftover piece of Findlay Park on Elm Street that could be moved around and/or re-imagined. In the midst of all this I've heard rumors of lots of things, but so far haven't seen anything concrete surface.

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35 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

I don't think a parking garage under Findlay Playground is as profitable.

 

I think they were also waiting to see what the county announced for their FC Cincinnati garages. If a new county garage does end up getting built just west of Findlay Market, that might soak up most of Findlay Market's parking demand, making a garage under Findlay Playground unnecessary or too risky. On the other hand, if you master plan the area a bit more, you could still build a garage under Findlay Playground and use that capacity to support future development in the area and/or eliminate surface parking lots.  Aside from the north lot swap I described above, you could also develop the south lots (easily enough room for a few dozen apartments or condos) and maybe even start having a conversation about the future of the OTR Rec Center and the Corporation for Findlay Market office building. There are several other non-historic 1 to 2 story buildings along Race that could eventually be replaced by new development as well.

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56 minutes ago, ZoeBarnes said:


just to be clear, those parks were not done as a mechanism for parking revenue, however they were done because parking provides revenue. If you do a little research you will find that the revenue from those garages keeps those parks active and clean and the spaces still operate in the red.  If the parks had the right amount of funding from the city to operate, it would have been immensely cheaper to not build the garages. Not ignoring the fact that parking capacity helps surrounding development but there are definitely cheaper ways to build parking if you are only in it for profit. 
 

i agree it’s isn’t the same scenario NoL but the market certainly can draw crowds. 


You don't need to be condescending in replies.

 

If there weren't parking garages under Ziegler Park and Washington Park, I don't know if 3CDC would have been involved. Those would have likely been purely city projects (that probably struggled to happen due to funding). Fountain Square was also done and partially funded with the revenue from the parking garage underneath. To my knowledge, 3CDC has never redeveloped a park or other public space without a garage built to support the project financially. That's what I'm saying.

The way I see it, a parking garage under Findlay Playground without any additional developments wouldn't generate nearly enough revenue to justify the costs. That's where my guess of a potential redevelopment of the space into parking and mixed use is coming from. With the FC Cincinnati/Findlay Market garage going west of the Market, it further reduces the revenue that a parking garage would generate east of the Market without additional development.

And to be clear, I don't think they are going to propose this any time soon now that the new garage is being built west of the Market. If I had to guess, the park will get some very minor updates and then quietly reopen. I think there may have been a long game plan with closing the park, and it just didn't pan out.

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There are tons and tons of baseball diamonds/football fields/soccer fields near OTR that get virtually zero use.  There are wooded hillsides all over the place where kids could play but don't.  

Kids don't go outside much anymore and there are fewer kids than ever in the city.  Those that remain sit in the air conditioning playing video games or messaging one another on their phones.  

 

Pickup basketball is way more popular than pickup baseball/football/soccer.  Basketball takes up the least space of the four.  

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7 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

Kids don't go outside much anymore and there are fewer kids than ever in the city.  Those that remain sit in the air conditioning playing video games or messaging one another on their phones.

With the glaring exceptions of Washington Park and Ziegler Park which between their playgrounds and splash fountains are jam packed with kids all summer long...

Edited by ucgrady

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1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

With the glaring exceptions of Washington Park and Ziegler Park which between their playgrounds and splash fountains are jam packed with kids all summer long...

 

Those are little kids who don't have phones.  Their parents usually come with them. Ages 10+ all have phones and don't go outside.   

 

I've never seen a pickup game of anything other than basketball anywhere in the city pretty much ever.  I haven't seen a kid throwing a baseball against a wall or two kids tossing or any of that - not in 15+ plus years.  

 

All of the fields in the West End - and there are like 9 of them - get hardly any formal use and almost zero informal use.  

 

This isn't hard for me to believe as someone who was about 10 when video games were invented and cable TV proliferated and all of the sudden pickup games and riding bikes and playing in the woods ceased to occur.  We had "seasons" and statistics that we kept between our pickup games because they were daily, sometimes multiple games and multiple sports per day.  

 

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City kids toss football a lot, even if not playing a full blown game. 
 

Informal baseball is rare, although I remember hearing the sounds from aluminum bats from organized games on Dyer field in the west end a lot from when I lived on Klotter. The Reds fund helped upgrade that field


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9 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Those are little kids who don't have phones.  Their parents usually come with them. Ages 10+ all have phones and don't go outside.   

 

I've never seen a pickup game of anything other than basketball anywhere in the city pretty much ever.  I haven't seen a kid throwing a baseball against a wall or two kids tossing or any of that - not in 15+ plus years.  

 

All of the fields in the West End - and there are like 9 of them - get hardly any formal use and almost zero informal use.  

 

This isn't hard for me to believe as someone who was about 10 when video games were invented and cable TV proliferated and all of the sudden pickup games and riding bikes and playing in the woods ceased to occur.  We had "seasons" and statistics that we kept between our pickup games because they were daily, sometimes multiple games and multiple sports per day.  

 

 

Inner city american youth hardly play anything but basketball due to space (harder to find large open fields in an urban environment), and easier barrier to entry (you just need 1 ball, and one hoop versus baseball gloves, baseball bat, baseball, make shift bases, potentially breaking someone's car window or house window). That's why baseball statistically struggles with the race gap between it's players. 

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1 minute ago, troeros said:

 

Inner city american youth hardly play anything but basketball due to space (harder to find large open fields in an urban environment), and easier barrier to entry (you just need 1 ball, and one hoop versus baseball gloves, baseball bat, baseball, make shift bases, potentially breaking someone's car window or house window). That's why baseball statistically struggles with the race gap between it's players. 

 

You need a fixed hoop to play basketball, otherwise you're just dribbling.  You can play baseball/stickball anywhere, soccer anywhere, football anywhere.  Theory debunked.  

 

 

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18 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

All of the fields in the West End - and there are like 9 of them - get hardly any formal use and almost zero informal use.  

 

I go down to the west end roughly once a week in the summer and there are ALWAYS kids playing football/basketball/baseball when its nice out. 

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Upcoming hcb packet agenda includes plan for 1905 elm Street to be rehabbed....Ive heard rumors from Rhinegeist employees that it will be a new brewery with a tap room. 

 

Glad to see more development especially right across the street from Rhinegeist...but Ive always saw that building as an opportunity for demo and building something more dense on that corner. 

Screenshot_20200117-095803.png

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Agreed. Hopefully they aren't putting a lot of money into it, and are just bringing it up to a productive use until it's financially feasible to demo and redevelop.

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At the Over-the-Rhine Community Council meeting last night there was discussion of revamped efforts for Elm and Liberty.

 

A new developer is involved and the plan looks visually much better than the previous iteration. It's also much bigger. The developer got control of the Boys and Girls Club along Central Parkway, and they will be demolishing that for additional units. Basically the plan is:

 

  • 3-story parking garage with ~230 spaces (1 fully underground, 1 fully above ground, 1 split)
  • 5 Story structure at the corner and replacing the Boys and Girls Club. Still 11 feet shorter than the old proposal.
  • ~280 units with a mix of studios, 1BR, 2BR, and some 3BR (didn't seem like a lot, but some).
  • A commitment to some affordable housing. Exact mix of units, AMI requirements, and number of units still up in the air depending on available funds.
  • Less retail than the old proposal - mostly focused around Elm street and the corner at Liberty.
  • Better visually than the old one.
  • Preserving Freeport Alley as a pedestrian access point with original bricks. The building will go over the alley, and artwork will be installed in the alley to make it a destination.
  • The garage sounds like it will be wrapped by buildings.
  • Buildings will step down along Elm Street to closer match the buildings on Elm.

I don't have any photos, but maybe others do. They aren't looking for a vote to support the project until they have the affordable units ironed out.

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22 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

At the Over-the-Rhine Community Council meeting last night there was discussion of revamped efforts for Elm and Liberty.

 

A new developer is involved and the plan looks visually much better than the previous iteration. It's also much bigger. The developer got control of the Boys and Girls Club along Central Parkway, and they will be demolishing that for additional units. Basically the plan is:

 

  • 3-story parking garage with ~230 spaces (1 fully underground, 1 fully above ground, 1 split)
  • 5 Story structure at the corner and replacing the Boys and Girls Club. Still 11 feet shorter than the old proposal.
  • ~280 units with a mix of studios, 1BR, 2BR, and some 3BR (didn't seem like a lot, but some).
  • A commitment to some affordable housing. Exact mix of units, AMI requirements, and number of units still up in the air depending on available funds.
  • Less retail than the old proposal - mostly focused around Elm street and the corner at Liberty.
  • Better visually than the old one.
  • Preserving Freeport Alley as a pedestrian access point with original bricks. The building will go over the alley, and artwork will be installed in the alley to make it a destination.
  • The garage sounds like it will be wrapped by buildings.
  • Buildings will step down along Elm Street to closer match the buildings on Elm.

I don't have any photos, but maybe others do. They aren't looking for a vote to support the project until they have the affordable units ironed out.

Sounds good. Given the contention over the previous plan, this sounds like a step in the right direction. How did the OTRCC board and attendees react?


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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26 minutes ago, JYP said:

Sounds good. Given the contention over the previous plan, this sounds like a step in the right direction. How did the OTRCC board and attendees react?


Some concerns about what "affordable" means. A few concerned about parking. Josh Spring wanted them to commit to just lower rents and make less money (which no bank would allow if they are loaning the money).

 

Generally, they seemed to take legitimate concerns and act on them. It was a fairly adult conversation about a development. It'll be several months before they come to the council with a "final" plan they ask for approval for. I'm sure some of the negativity will come out as we get closer. This sounded like the first time they have come to the full council in a while, and they were working with the board/infill committee of OTRCC to make a plan that they could get through the community council.

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22 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

300 units is a big project.  My guess is that it won't be built entirely in one phase.  

 

The Artistry is 344 units and is being done in one phase. 

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How a pair of developers and Children’s Theatre plan to save the Emery Theatre

 

Nearly 30 years ago, Chris Frutkin was looking for redevelopment opportunities around Cincinnati. Jim Tarbell recommended he take a look at the Emery Center, home of the Emery Theatre and recently vacated by Ohio Mechanics Institute, which had been absorbed by the University of Cincinnati and moved to Edgecliff Campus.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/02/04/how-a-pair-of-developers-and-children-s-theatre.html

 

image.php?type=thumbnail_1024x576&url=2b


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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When I think "perfect acoustics" I don't think Children's Theater, but its better than letting the space sit vacant like it has been. This building is great so I'm just excited something might move forward, including hopefully re-building the historic awning/entrance on the Walnut Street side. 

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26 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

When I think "perfect acoustics" I don't think Children's Theater, but its better than letting the space sit vacant like it has been. This building is great so I'm just excited something might move forward, including hopefully re-building the historic awning/entrance on the Walnut Street side. 

 

I think there was concern about using the theater with residential also in the building. I am not sure how much sound dampening there is between the theater and the apartments but having concerts in there would have had some sound bleeding through the walls.

 

Some developers even contemplated converting the theater into apartments. With that in mind, the Children's Theater seems to be the right fit.


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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I've never seen any apartments for rent in that building but probably wasn't looking too closely. Are these high end apartments or more workforce like 1000 a month for studio/1 bed?

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They're pretty cool apartments in there.  Not high end with it being an older building but they were more then $1,000/month for a one bedroom a couple years ago.  Honestly I wouldn't want to live there if they're going to be doing shows in my building.  I'm sure there would be at least some noise issues.  

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I lived there some years ago. At the time it was reasonable and your parking spot was included. That became an added fee while I was living there but everyone currently there was grandfathered in. 

 

It was super quiet between units I thought with thick walls of the old classrooms.

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They would only have to build an interior wall with 6" of space between it and the existing wall in the units that abut the theater to mitigate any sound that now leaks through.  Sounds to me like they're just afraid of rock & roll.  

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You need a LOT more than just a 6" air gap to stop sound transmission from live shows.

 

With that said, there are certainly ways of achieving it. But having once looked at a condo above a live stage and snooping around, finding ear plugs on the nightstands I can't imagine it's going to be an easy sell and people will (rightfully) question any statement made about soundproofing, even if it truly is handled.

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6 hours ago, JYP said:

 

I think there was concern about using the theater with residential also in the building. I am not sure how much sound dampening there is between the theater and the apartments but having concerts in there would have had some sound bleeding through the walls.

 

Some developers even contemplated converting the theater into apartments. With that in mind, the Children's Theater seems to be the right fit.

 

Yeah, the Children's Theatre is not the ideal tenant, but it's better than the space being turned into a rock climbing gym or more apartments. And honestly, the opportunity to turn it into a concert venue has passed, as there are too many other similarly sized venues that have opened in recent years or are under construction.

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It was interesting in the walk through. I guess it was all rock wool insulation and the natural fiber seating but when you went into the theater is was like a sound studio with not a bit of echo or reverberation. All of the units will be upgraded eventually, but there is a pretty thoughtful plan in place to reduce disruption and dislocation of the existing tenants many of whom have lived there  for a really long time.

Edited by 1400 Sycamore

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Having it used as a performance space of any kind is fantastic. It means it will be preserved as a performance space. That means it may host things you'd want to attend in the future, regardless of your thoughts on children's theater.

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This article from the Columbus Dispatch mentions Michael Schiff is working in collaboration with Chinedum Ndukwe's Kingsley & Co on two potential projects in OTR, including the old CMHA site at 16 W Central Parkway, and a separate project at 1923 Elm St:

https://www.dispatch.com/business/20200210/columbus-developer-michael-schiff-wants-to-build-100-million-cincinnati-tower

 

Quote

Schiff said he also has ownership interest in the old Cincinnati Metropolitan Housing Authority building at 16 W. Central Parkway, where his firm and Kingsley & Co. have proposed a $22 million mixed-used development, including office, retail and parking space.

 

He said he also owns a “significant piece” of a building across the street from Rhinegeist Brewery at 1910 Elm St. that he wants to redevelop, among several other Cincinnati-area properties.

 

 

The Kingsley website mentions both of those sites, but doesn't have any detail on 1923 Elm other than saying it's an "available site":

https://kingsleyandcompany.com/what-we-do/projects.html

Quote

16 West Central Parkway, Cincinnati, OH 45202

Proposed Total Project: 22 Million

Kingsley and Co. was selected as the developer of the former CMHA Headquarters in downtown Cincinnati. Kingsley and Co. negotiated a purchase and sale agreement with the Housing and Urban Development, HUD. The proposed mixed-use development includes office, retail, and parking.

...

1923 Elm Street

Available site

 

Edited by jwulsin

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29 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

This article from the Columbus Dispatch mentions Michael Schiff is working in collaboration with Chinedum Ndukwe's Kingsley & Co on two potential projects in OTR, including the old CMHA site at 16 W Central Parkway, and a separate project at 1923 Elm St:

https://www.dispatch.com/business/20200210/columbus-developer-michael-schiff-wants-to-build-100-million-cincinnati-tower

 

 

 

The Kingsley website mentions both of those sites, but doesn't have any detail on 1923 Elm other than saying it's an "available site":

https://kingsleyandcompany.com/what-we-do/projects.html

 

Glad to see 16 W Central is still a thing. I thought that died years ago.

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I went to Tuckers (on Vine by Findlay Market) today.  Based on the conversations I overheard, it sounded like they aren't doing well.  It would be an incredible shame if they closed.  Don't get me wrong, OTR is great, but if they are truly on the ropes, it is still one less 'authentic' place in an increasingly curated neighborhood.

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Here’s some random developments throughout OTR. Taken 2/16. First one is a 5 story new building on Vine that will be affordable housing. Second is what appears to be a new duplex on Race. 

708FD745-2F65-4412-BAF0-ECB17FD8B5CC.jpeg

CA5CDF01-85D5-4124-A244-FA06EE908D86.jpeg

186919C0-670E-47DD-9C50-09C76D414B61.jpeg

40B7DC63-1963-4FB3-9978-64BB4AB15F70.jpeg

41A17F5D-B6FD-409E-BD20-2ED390E14941.jpeg

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I thought there were already apartments going in this lot? I know there was pushback due to the developer wanting to put in more units than what residents wanted but I had thought everything went through. Feel like this will meet the same fate as that proposal. https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/02/21/otr-apartments-a-waitress-or-bartender-can-afford.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

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The density limits should be removed, yesterday. They are artificially stunting the growth of the city and forcing unpleasant tradeoffs in terms of affordability and the types of projects that can be pursued. 

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