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Urban Sites has been awarded 1712 Logan Street after the RFP the City issued this past spring. They plan on constructing a mixed use building on the current parking lot.

 

Council will hold an emergency ordinance agenda to approve this transfer along with property tax exemptions associated with this transfer. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Is that the entire parking lot?  Or just part of it?  Always great to see infills on surface lots.  

 

The entire parking lot. 

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Interesting that Urban Sites and CMHA are partnering on this. I'm curious to hear why that was the case, and what each developer is bringing to the project. 

 

Also, I'm curious how they're handling the parking. It says it'll have 93 spots "at grade and one level below". I'm glad they're putting some of the parking underground, and I just hope that they do a good job with the ground-level design. The designs still have to go through HCB, so the design will get reviewed later. 

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47 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

Interesting that Urban Sites and CMHA are partnering on this. I'm curious to hear why that was the case, and what each developer is bringing to the project. 

 

Also, I'm curious how they're handling the parking. It says it'll have 93 spots "at grade and one level below". I'm glad they're putting some of the parking underground, and I just hope that they do a good job with the ground-level design. The designs still have to go through HCB, so the design will get reviewed later. 

 

This could be a real game changer for north of liberty. This will probably be the largest new construction developement in North of liberty in many, many decades. 

 

I always that the Hamilton county FCC garage would go on that parking lot though? Is their another sizable parking lot that could fit a large garage structure that's adjacent to Findlay Market?

 

Obviously there is the parking lot right behind Findlay Market, but I hope that if the garage goes there there will be mixed use aspects involved. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, troeros said:

 

This could be a real game changer for north of liberty. This will probably be the largest new construction developement in North of liberty in many, many decades. 

 

I always that the Hamilton county FCC garage would go on that parking lot though? Is their another sizable parking lot that could fit a large garage structure that's adjacent to Findlay Market?

 

Obviously there is the parking lot right behind Findlay Market, but I hope that if the garage goes there there will be mixed use aspects involved. 


The County is looking into the option of putting the FCC garage just north of this site, across Elder on the surface parking lots spanning from Central Parkway across Logan all the way to Campbell Alley. A few years ago, Model Group tore down the non-historic “annex” building behind The Globe. Google Maps satellite still shows the old building, but street view shows that it’s now surface parking. 
 

With the 1712 Logan parking lot going away, there will be even more need for structured parking to support Findlay Market and the surrounding area. 

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Well, let’s hope the access/exit is off Campbell alley, which would likely result in the loss of 3-4 spaces to the 80.

 

I’d love to see the little non-contributing blue building between Elm and Campbell replaced with a pedestrian laneway that could connect to a cool, small bar laneway environment in this new development. It could even go all the way through to the Film Center if you can rationalize the floor plates, which I think you can. 

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1 hour ago, jwulsin said:


The County is looking into the option of putting the FCC garage just north of this site, across Elder on the surface parking lots spanning from Central Parkway across Logan all the way to Campbell Alley. A few years ago, Model Group tore down the non-historic “annex” building behind The Globe. Google Maps satellite still shows the old building, but street view shows that it’s now surface parking. 
 

With the 1712 Logan parking lot going away, there will be even more need for structured parking to support Findlay Market and the surrounding area. 

 

20,000 square feet of office space though, plus 66 residential units, plus any of the handful of workers who will be part of the ground floor commercial developement..93 spaces doesn't seem nearly enough when you combine all of these elements..Also, the findlay parking lot is already near max capacity on most days.

 

Model group is adding more and more Businesses/residential around findlay, but nothing in the way of parking. 

 

I just feel like until north of liberty is further cleaned up, it will be a tough sell to tell workers to park on Vine or Walnut in north of liberty...do we end up with a sticky situation of how do you continue stimulating investment without dedicated parking.

 

 

 

 

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I will never complain about a development in downtown not having enough on-site parking.  If the goal is to create the best urban neighborhood it can be, then parking needs to be an afterthought in these developments, not the driving force.  Take the bus, bike, live in OTR, there are options if you want to work there and not deal with the hassle of parking.   No need to cater to people that will live outside the city limits.  We need to push people to use these options if we ever want to reverse the damage that cars have done to our city, that starts with making parking as scarce as we can.

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9 hours ago, troeros said:

I just feel like until north of liberty is further cleaned up, it will be a tough sell to tell workers to park on Vine or Walnut in north of liberty...do we end up with a sticky situation of how do you continue stimulating investment without dedicated parking.

 

No.

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9 hours ago, troeros said:

 

20,000 square feet of office space though, plus 66 residential units, plus any of the handful of workers who will be part of the ground floor commercial developement..93 spaces doesn't seem nearly enough when you combine all of these elements..Also, the findlay parking lot is already near max capacity on most days.

 

Model group is adding more and more Businesses/residential around findlay, but nothing in the way of parking. 

 

I just feel like until north of liberty is further cleaned up, it will be a tough sell to tell workers to park on Vine or Walnut in north of liberty...do we end up with a sticky situation of how do you continue stimulating investment without dedicated parking.

 

 

 

 

 

I think some people need to not get so fed up with the parking details, etc. We all understand, and all want, to not have so much dedicated parking, but it really is necessary at this point in time we are living in. We can't reinvent the wheel and for us to want continued economic growth and development in OTR we need dedicated parking. This was a decision that was forced on us by the state and local governments going back 60 or 70 years so it isn't going to change now. It would be great if we had dedicated light rail connecting uptown to downtown which was fast, frequent, and maybe free, but we don't, so we need dedicated parking in the moment to jump start more development.

 

Troy, I believe you are right and developers know this, there is more dediced parking needed to stimulate more investment. It sounds like this project will take care of itself in the parking aspect which is fine and good to hear, but there will definitely need to be probably at least one or two more garages directly around Findlay Market and for sure another garage on Vine Street somewhere north of Libery to help stimulate that area unless they do one massive one in Findlay playground which is two birds with one stone. I still think they will need to have another parking garage somewhere on Vine North of Liberty, though.

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3 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

 

I think some people need to not get so fed up with the parking details, etc. We all understand, and all want, to not have so much dedicated parking, but it really is necessary at this point in time we are living in. We can't reinvent the wheel and for us to want continued economic growth and development in OTR we need dedicated parking. This was a decision that was forced on us by the state and local governments going back 60 or 70 years so it isn't going to change now. It would be great if we had dedicated light rail connecting uptown to downtown which was fast, frequent, and maybe free, but we don't, so we need dedicated parking in the moment to jump start more development.

 

Troy, I believe you are right and developers know this, there is more dediced parking needed to stimulate more investment. It sounds like this project will take care of itself in the parking aspect which is fine and good to hear, but there will definitely need to be probably at least one or two more garages directly around Findlay Market and for sure another garage on Vine Street somewhere north of Libery to help stimulate that area unless they do one massive one in Findlay playground which is two birds with one stone. I still think they will need to have another parking garage somewhere on Vine North of Liberty, though.

 

I just don't understand the kvetching over not having enough parking. If more parking is necessary then developers will build it. If it's not, they won't. It's pretty simple. It seems like developers are starting to realize that you don't need to build so much parking in OTR and downtown. If it becomes an issue then the pendulum will swing back the other way.

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11 hours ago, atlas said:

Well, let’s hope the access/exit is off Campbell alley, which would likely result in the loss of 3-4 spaces to the 80.

 

I’d love to see the little non-contributing blue building between Elm and Campbell replaced with a pedestrian laneway that could connect to a cool, small bar laneway environment in this new development. It could even go all the way through to the Film Center if you can rationalize the floor plates, which I think you can. 

 

That little blue building at 1729 Elm is owned by Model Group. 

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30 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

I just don't understand the kvetching over not having enough parking. If more parking is necessary then developers will build it. If it's not, they won't. It's pretty simple. It seems like developers are starting to realize that you don't need to build so much parking in OTR and downtown. If it becomes an issue then the pendulum will swing back the other way.

 

I don't think there is any kvetching going on.

 

I think it's a fact that developers need to have more dedicated parking to get more projects done that would prove profitable. That's why the county is pushing hard to have one of the garages closer to the Findlay Market instead of one big garage right next to the stadium. Because the developers know and the community knows they need more parking.

 

The good news is that it seems there are more projects going on with low parking or minimum parking. That all said, all the retail and all the people that visit the market and now the surrounding breweries and other destinations need areas to park, and the neighborhood itself does not have enough residents to support all that retail so people need to drive in. It is full now or close to capacity, so we need more parking to keep having economic development in that area. I believe for certain, that is what the market is saying. Otherwise, the OTRCC wouldn't be writing letters in support of more parking needed, especially considering they are the strictest there is about design and walkability.

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37 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

 

I don't think there is any kvetching going on.

 

I was referring specifically to people posting on this board. Every time there's a new development there are a handful of posters that chime in with the idea that we are on the verge of a parking crisis. My point is that parking will sort itself out if you let the market handle it.

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Right, what is the point of eliminating parking requirements and allowing developers to build new buildings with no or very little parking, if the government is going to step in and say "we know better than the developers" and build additional parking anyway? Let the free market sort this one out.

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^Sorry, I think you all are overthinking this a bit. I don't think the government is saying "this is what we should be doing". I think the market is sorting itself out. It sorted itself out when 3CDC made all the garages, or if when they are deciding to have 95 spaces for the Logan Street Development, etc.

 

3CDC knew that the retail/restaurants/condos wouldn't be successful without the garages. They just got done building one at Ziegler Park, built a large surface lot on Liberty and Race, building another one on Vine, going to build another big one on Vine behind the old Kroger, etc.

 

So, I think you all are annoyed at the fact that we "aren't there yet" to not need any parking. I am with you all and agree with you all. But you can't fight the actual market. The actual market has said and is saying "If you don't build this structured parking, these establishments won't be successful."

 

The market is that way why? Well, we don't have dedicated buses, we don't have dedicated light rail, etc. Those are things which are frustrating for us all.

 

***I Do think the pardigm is shifting to less garages needed, etc. But it still isn't fully there yet and it probably will never be fully there, because Cincinnati is heavily reliant on personal vehicles and that stuff doesn't change quickly.

 

I don't want to argue with anyone about this, it is a thing of schematics, but we can't change what is actually happening. Developers are free to feast by building develpments with no parking, obviously this isn't just *happening*, otherwise we would see it all over the place. They need structured parking to some extent to be successful otherwise the people with the money would gladly do it without parking because they would make more cash. Instead they probably find they can't sell out the apartments with no parking or it's very high risk. It's another way to subsidize development which is obviously needed right now.

 

It's kind of like me saying this whole grain-free dog food craze is so freaking stupid and isn't correct scientifically. It isn't correct, but we can't go out as a small company and say "Do it this way you all are wrong!" because that is not what the market is doing. It would take a multi-million dollar marketing messaging to even get a dent of people to change. It's the same here, I understand the frustration and I am with you all on it.

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It's a terrible catch-22.  The more parking that's built because "we aren't there yet" the farther away "yet" gets.  Also keep in mind there's the market, and there's "the market."  The middle man in all this is the lenders.  If the builders and the buyers want less parking, but the project can't get financing without ticking all the check boxes, then that's a market failure, just not a government-imposed one.  I think that's why some places swung the pendulum all the way from parking minimums to parking maximums.  They predicted or saw outright that lenders were holding projects to suburban standards in conflict with new more permissive zoning. 

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I walked around DT Nashville for about 5 hours this past weekend.  Everything new is a Dallas Donut or otherwise has its parking on-site.  There is almost no functional street activity (aside from tourists) because people don't walk anywhere, despite being downtown or within walking distance of it.  

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53 minutes ago, jjakucyk said:

It's a terrible catch-22.  The more parking that's built because "we aren't there yet" the farther away "yet" gets.  Also keep in mind there's the market, and there's "the market."  The middle man in all this is the lenders.  If the builders and the buyers want less parking, but the project can't get financing without ticking all the check boxes, then that's a market failure, just not a government-imposed one.  I think that's why some places swung the pendulum all the way from parking minimums to parking maximums.  They predicted or saw outright that lenders were holding projects to suburban standards in conflict with new more permissive zoning. 

 

My thing is, I don't know of a way to measure it without really doing a ton of work, but I would guess the amount of parking per unit or restauarant seat, etc. has been steadilly decreasing in the last 5 years.

 

I also think people are taking risk like the Main and 8th development which has me excited in that *maybe* developers will see they can get away with little or no parking on certain projects.

 

I also think business people tend to be fairly smart and will look at most all angles they can to gain $50/unit or whatever, and they know that taking out the parking will give them a lot more flexibility and give them more profit margin per room than with parking. (save $200/unit with no parking then make rent $150 less per unit than competition w/parking, they gain $50).

 

I also think Banks would be wanting to do the same thing but those are a lot more slow to change than are developers. Especially National Banks and even probably large local banks like 5/3rd. You'd probably have more luck with like a Heritage Bank where the CEO can make the decision himself on whether to lend $15mm for a 90 unit apartment complex with retail on ground floor at the corner of Elm and 8th street with no parking or whatever, than US Bank doing it because your project has to fit within their national formula: Financing(x) = Property Values + Parking Spots + Downpayment + Pre-Lease ... whatever it is. But whatever that formula is, it's the same in Des Moines or Peoria, IL as it would be in Cincinnati.

 

Then the problem with local banks lending on local developments is they have less cash to lend so they need to see the ROI for them and their customers, so overall it's a slow process, but I bet things will keep getting better and better with less needed parking moving forward.

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I think people are getting a little picky.  The baseline situation in Over-the-Rhine lends itself to a much better environment in 2030 than the rebounds & urban booms in similar midsized cities.  

 

We have "fine-grained" streetscapes and, as importantly, much more diversified ownership of parcels on individual blocks as compared to the southern boom cities.  We have some local ownership of storefront businesses as opposed to non-stop chains in the Dallas Donut apartment buildings that comprise the bulk of the city revivals elsewhere.  

 

Also, the Cincinnati basin has on-street metered parking on most streets, which creates a more low-key pedestrian environment than elsewhere.  For example, the new towers lining the super-narrow streets in Nashville don't have space for on-street parking and so walking on the sidewalks is a little unnerving despite the very narrow width of the streets.  

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22 hours ago, IAGuy39 said:

 

My thing is, I don't know of a way to measure it without really doing a ton of work, but I would guess the amount of parking per unit or restauarant seat, etc. has been steadilly decreasing in the last 5 years.

 

Absolutely. Which is why I said it is annoying to see people on this board constantly posting about how we need more parking. My position and yours are the same. Which is that the market will decide, and that the market has been steadily moving away from more parking. Here's a piece from today's NY Times:
 

Sales of parking lots may rise further, research shows. The parking industry is still generally strong nationwide, with revenue up 1 percent annually since 2014, according to a report released in May by the research firm IBISWorld. But the same report forecast a bumpy road ahead, with annual revenue growth shrinking to 0.2 percent through 2024 and a wave of consolidation hitting the industry.

 

The report cited factors for the change, including an increase in traffic congestion, which dissuades drivers; greater interest in car-pooling and cycling, as well as a rise in bike infrastructure like new lanes; and a surge in the use of public transportation and ride-hailing services like Uber and Lyft.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/03/business/parking-lot-death-redevelopment.html

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Has there been a surge in public transit?  Seems all I've been hearing lately is the opposite, except in a few places like Seattle and maybe Denver.  Chicago has been hemorrhaging riders, as have LA, Boston, DC, and Atlanta.  It's really worrisome actually since gas prices have been kept so low. 

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On 12/7/2019 at 5:38 PM, jmecklenborg said:

McMicken St. beer garden, 12/7/19:

cincinnati-3326_zpsvusoxjmw.jpg

I'm really looking forward to this project. I was afraid it had stalled but glad to see it is still moving forward. The developers have a few buildings on this stretch of McMicken and this bar (Somerset IIRC?) should really help bring people up from the nearby Main Street intersection and Moerlein brewery.

 

McMicken is the last major street in OTR that still feels sketchy to me, so it's great to see this kind of investment.

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28 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

I'm really looking forward to this project. I was afraid it had stalled but glad to see it is still moving forward. The developers have a few buildings on this stretch of McMicken and this bar (Somerset IIRC?) should really help bring people up from the nearby Main Street intersection and Moerlein brewery.

 

McMicken is the last major street in OTR that still feels sketchy to me, so it's great to see this kind of investment.

 

It took quite a bit of time for people to feel comfortable enough to walk to Rhinegeist from South of Liberty back when the entire Findlay Market area wasn't as developed. 

 

I imagine most people will Uber to this new bar, or be in very large groups fot safety purposes. 

 

From what I recall this bar will close around midnight most nights, so that street will still be rather dead and uncomfortable to be in after that time. 

 

 

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Rhinegeist closed at midnight every night until the rooftop bar opened. This bar will only be ~700 feet from Liberty's Bar and Bottle (which is still popular) and less than a 1000 feet from Woodward/ MOTR. I think plenty of people will walk there.

 

By comparison Rhinegeist is 700 feet from Findlay Market, and almost half a mile from Tafts/Pleasantry/Zula which was the nearest cluster of bars until the area around Findlay started to pick up recently. 

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On 12/4/2019 at 2:30 PM, jjakucyk said:

Has there been a surge in public transit?  Seems all I've been hearing lately is the opposite, except in a few places like Seattle and maybe Denver.  Chicago has been hemorrhaging riders, as have LA, Boston, DC, and Atlanta.  It's really worrisome actually since gas prices have been kept so low. 

 

Bus ridership is trending down. But those people haven't been switching to private car use as much as they have been using rideshare services. On the other hand, rail transit usage is up in many places. Seattle is the most notable. Another example would be Philly, where the commuter rail system hit an all-time high in ridership a few years ago. Metro North also hit an all-time high in 2017. Minneapolis has seen significant gains in light rail ridership. Denver rail ridership is up. One notable exception is the DC Metro, which has seen declining ridership for years. However, they are also projecting an increase in ridership this year. So maybe the tide has turned there.

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On 12/3/2019 at 12:06 PM, jmecklenborg said:

I walked around DT Nashville for about 5 hours this past weekend.  Everything new is a Dallas Donut or otherwise has its parking on-site.  There is almost no functional street activity (aside from tourists) because people don't walk anywhere, despite being downtown or within walking distance of it.  

 

I was in Buenos Aires last week, and it was very interesting to see what is happening in the hot growth areas (particularly the Palermo neighborhood), in relation to parking. It seems like about everywhere they can, developers are putting up tall residential towers in the footprint of older 1-4ish story buildings. These towers invariably get an underground parking garage below them. So while the neighborhood is extremely dense and is getting more dense, with a subway and a number and frequency of bus lines that was head-spinning, as well as an exceptionally vibrant street life, private parking accommodation was a very high priority. The driving culture was correspondingly New World, too, with motorists showing no regard for pedestrians at unsignalized crosswalks, etc.

 

The blocks are pretty short and the grid network redundant enough, I guess, that there wasn't perpetual gridlock. And I suppose there is a bit of an economic restriction based on the number of people that can afford these parking spaces. But the paradox of it is fascinating.

 

Here are a couple examples of what this looks like:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-34.5843578,-58.4257009,3a,90y,121.32h,88.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGFerDs6I0bkRUmD1o5IeGw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@-34.5872721,-58.4232439,3a,75y,53.2h,90.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGl1jKlHp89fSGUuEndopMg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

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On 12/9/2019 at 12:05 PM, DEPACincy said:

 

Bus ridership is trending down. But those people haven't been switching to private car use as much as they have been using rideshare services. On the other hand, rail transit usage is up in many places. Seattle is the most notable. Another example would be Philly, where the commuter rail system hit an all-time high in ridership a few years ago. Metro North also hit an all-time high in 2017. Minneapolis has seen significant gains in light rail ridership. Denver rail ridership is up. One notable exception is the DC Metro, which has seen declining ridership for years. However, they are also projecting an increase in ridership this year. So maybe the tide has turned there.

 

Enemies of transit that invested heavily in ride sharing are disappointed in the results of their investments since they decreased bus usage but didn't affect or even supported rail transit. Enemies of transit don't mind buses so much but despise rail.

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