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On 11/2/2019 at 11:15 PM, troeros said:

quite a bit of empty vending space with alot of the vendors selling similar stuff

 

I don't see how the cure to this would be expanding, unless there were a successful campaign to solicit new vendors to fill everything up.

 

I feel like having the permanent stores flanking the market which can flex into outdoor stalls is solid, I don't think the size is an issue. On the parking lots, I'd like to see underground parking with mixed retail/residential on top.

 

North Market in Columbus feels more spread out to me but not bigger (as in more vendors), especially when factoring in Silverglades, Maverick, etc. in the stores outside the market hall. West Side Market in Cleveland is massively bigger, although it has a ton of vendors selling the same things (if you want kielbasa and macarons, boy are you set). I'm not sure which peer city market you might be thinking of which is much more substantial, other than West Side Market.

 

I think the best thing for the market would just be residential infill in the market's vicinity. If it could be more active and full of vendors 7 days a week, perhaps with extended hours, that would be a better scenario than having a larger market. Bringing more customers to the area would be the best way to accomplish this.

Edited by Robuu
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Spruce Nail Shop is expanding and moving out of their small Vine Street location and into 1818 race street and expect to hire 30 plus people. 

 

They arent taking all of 1818 race but is the Hickory Wald Food Hall Concept still a go? I really hope that's still in the works...

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49 minutes ago, troeros said:

Spruce Nail Shop is expanding and moving out of their small Vine Street location and into 1818 race street and expect to hire 30 plus people. 

 

They arent taking all of 1818 race but is the Hickory Wald Food Hall Concept still a go? I really hope that's still in the works...

 

 

30 workers sounds like they would take up a lot of real estate in that space. I think the food hall idea is probably dead.


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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I'm sure Kroger kind of sucked up the market for a food hall.  I wouldn't open one with Kroger and Findlay Market, there's not room for another one that could sustain itself.

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8 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

I'm sure Kroger kind of sucked up the market for a food hall.  I wouldn't open one with Kroger and Findlay Market, there's not room for another one that could sustain itself.

 

I would disagree. Kroger food hall is great but I would love smaller stalls that try more experiential/ethnic food options. Kroger food stall is kind of generic imo...very safe food, nothing that jumps out and makes you go woah...

 

 

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Yeah there is definitely room for more food halls.  We have one.  Should there not be any more restaurants since OTR already has a bunch?  A food hall is just a restaurant on steroids.  

Edited by Cincy513

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26 minutes ago, taestell said:

There is still the other food hall proposal for the former Leder Furniture space.

 

I think that one is dead. I'm not sure why it's so hard to get a food hall set up in Findley market? You would think the bustling food Entrepreneurs would make it a great dream come true to get a start at a small set up in a food hall. 

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30 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

I think that one is dead. I'm not sure why it's so hard to get a food hall set up in Findley market? You would think the bustling food Entrepreneurs would make it a great dream come true to get a start at a small set up in a food hall. 

.

 

Food halls are hard. And in Cincinnati where its hard to find/harness food talent that outside of the established chefs and restaurant operators, even harder.


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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5 minutes ago, JYP said:

 

Food halls are hard. And in Cincinnati where its hard to find/harness food talent that outside of the established chefs and restaurant operators, even harder.

 

I was just under the impression about Findley market and the accelator programs being offered there as well as Findley kitchen and Findley launch has creates a bridge for the many food Entrepreneurs in Cincinnati...maybe I was wrong? 

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1 minute ago, troeros said:

I was just under the impression about Findley market and the accelator programs being offered there as well as Findley kitchen and Findley launch has creates a bridge for the many food Entrepreneurs in Cincinnati...maybe I was wrong? 

 

I don't like being pedantic, but you've posted a bunch of opinions these past few days about "Findley" market. It is "Findlay Market". And yes, Findlay Kitchen and Findlay Launch are great resource for helping budding entrepreneurs. Regardless of whether there is a "food hall" (in my opinion, Findlay Market already IS a great food hall), Findlay Market is continuing to expand as demand allows. Additionally, new restaurants/bars are opening around Findlay Market independent of the efforts directly managed by the Market. 

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^I also think the Findlay Market area at some point needs some structured parking to help with more demand of customers.

 

I hate structured parking as much as the next guy but it would help increase the density and help some of the many empty lots in the area fill up with new mixed use IMO.

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The problem is that the area around Findlay Market is just not "there" yet. Model Group is moving incredibly fast at adding new office space and apartments around there, but it's going to be awhile before Findlay Market can support lots of restaurants, whether that's fancier places or quick lunch options, and other types of retail. I loved the Epicurean Mercantile Company, but they were probably about 8 or 10 years ahead of their time.

 

It is only a matter of time before structured parking is built near the market, whether that's Hamilton County's FC Cincinnati garage or a 3CDC garage under Findlay Playground. Another factor is that if the streetcar were better run and it was actually possible for downtown office workers to go to Findlay Market and back in a one hour lunch break, it would help support more restaurants around Findlay Market. Maybe in a post-Cranley world this idea can be revisited.

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3 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

 

I don't like being pedantic, but you've posted a bunch of opinions these past few days about "Findley" market. It is "Findlay Market". And yes, Findlay Kitchen and Findlay Launch are great resource for helping budding entrepreneurs. Regardless of whether there is a "food hall" (in my opinion, Findlay Market already IS a great food hall), Findlay Market is continuing to expand as demand allows. Additionally, new restaurants/bars are opening around Findlay Market independent of the efforts directly managed by the Market. 

 

I was basically about to write 90% of this. These are great programs and the market is the perfect vehicle to develop this but a "food hall" as a commercial endeavor by itself is challenging. Concepts and chefs need to be managed and curated. There needs to be a balance on day parts, etc. Systems have to be organized as to who owns what, does what, etc. It's not impossible but its tricky to pull off. Good food halls are unique, authentic and hip. Bad ones are empty and stale and I've seen plenty of the latter and not enough of the former in doing research on these.

 

The good news is that food halls come in different flavors and I definitely don't think the two we have in the basin are it. Out of what we have, one is very corporate and relies on established Cincinnati brands. The other is oriented around an old market that is positioning itself to be an incubator space for restaurant and retail.

 

There are plenty of food hall concepts in between, it's just going to take more creativity, good recruiting, and financing to pull off. 

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“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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53 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

Regardless of whether there is a "food hall" (in my opinion, Findlay Market already IS a great food hall)

 

There is no better example of this than Taste of Belgium, which started as a small stall in the market house and has expanded to the point where they have multiple full service restaurants. Also Pho Lang Thang started in a small storefront managed by Findlay Market and has now expanded to a much larger storefront around the corner that is not managed by Findlay Market, in addition to opening several other restaurants around town. So even without a designated "food hall" in the former Leader Furniture or EMC spaces, the same role is being filled by Findlay itself.

 

2 hours ago, troeros said:

Kroger food hall is great but I would love smaller stalls that try more experiential/ethnic food options. Kroger food stall is kind of generic imo...very safe food, nothing that jumps out and makes you go woah...

 

I think Eatery On the Rhine, despite being branded as a food hall, is actually more of a food court. It is more like what you find in a mall food court; most of the restaurants are secondary locations for existing, established businesses, except for Dope, which relocated their existing business there. When I think of a food hall, I think of a place that is more willing to take chances on new concepts from new chefs or food trucks that want to upgrade to a more permanent location.

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What was Findley Market like back in the 2000's? My parents were always afraid of otr so as a kid I never had a chance to go to Findley market until I became an adult and moved out. 

 

Is today Findley market better or the same as it was 15 years ago?

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11 minutes ago, troeros said:

What was Findley Market like back in the 2000's? My parents were always afraid of otr so as a kid I never had a chance to go to Findley market until I became an adult and moved out. 

 

Is today Findley market better or the same as it was 15 years ago?

I cant remember when the most recent remodel happened where the aisles were widened and the outward facing glass walls were added but the market itself has been an active hive in the main building and the larger outside stalls. The east facing end seems to have forsaken the large and busy vendors for various trendy or programming uses so that is way less crowded than it used to be in the past, but as an overall it is WAY better as a destination. Back before the glass sides it was very insular in the main building and the south side was empty except for those going to Saigon market or the other few vendors in the buildings across the street. We would go, get produce and meats & head home. It was always just a place to shop for me but i liked the interaction of the people that i didnt get in daily office life. I still went to others stores for the dry goods & boring things, and that was usually at Keller's IGA in Clifton. Now i think it lives up to all they hype it has gotten as the place to go and oldest market still running  east of the Alleghenies (I think thats true) FYI are you just rolling with 'Findley' now to mess with folk?

 

Edited by SleepyLeroy
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Here is a pic of how it was more insular along the sides. When some of those buildings on the other side of the streets closed down and were empty in the 90's it was kinda quiet outside compared to inside. Streets were open to load and unload but closed when the market was open, at least when we went on weekends.000837crop.jpg

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33 minutes ago, troeros said:

Is today Findley market better or the same as it was 15 years ago?

 

The market and the neighborhood are both doing much better now compared to in the early 2000's. And please stop writing "Findley". 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

 

The market and the neighborhood are both doing much better now compared to in the early 2000's. And please stop writing "Findley". 

 

 

 

Ok, sorry.

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I mean keep in mind its only been open on Sunday for what 15 years?  In someways things are the same but in other ways they are vastly different than 15 years ago.  I mean the wine store was an active bar until the late 90's which often was in the running for the most police calls to a given address. 

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33 minutes ago, Traveler Joe said:

I mean keep in mind its only been open on Sunday for what 15 years?  In someways things are the same but in other ways they are vastly different than 15 years ago.  I mean the wine store was an active bar until the late 90's which often was in the running for the most police calls to a given address. 

The Brewery District CURC temporarily reopened that bar as a temporary bar as part of the launch of Moerlein's OTR Ale in 2007. At the time, there was literally nothing open past 5PM, and the police and Market staff told us we were crazy. Cops told us all kinds of "fun" stories about that bar. We also started the Biergarten in 2009 which was just after they started their Sunday hours. We were lucky to gross a couple hundred dollars a day in those days and most Sundays were ghost towns.

 

1 hour ago, SleepyLeroy said:

Back before the glass sides it was very insular in the main building and the south side was empty except for those going to Saigon market or the other few vendors in the buildings across the street.

Even years after we had opened the Biergarten, we had people constantly coming up to us for years saying "when did you open?, I've been coming to the Market for years". They literally would park in the north lot, walk to their couple of stalls in the Market house, then go back home. No one hung out or explored the neighborhood.

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Since I was a kid me and my dad would park at the lot south of the market, walk up Pleasant street to Saigon Market, get what we needed then go home. I literally didn't know Silverglades, Eckerlin etc. on the north side of the market existed until I went down there on my own in college and explored a bit.

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On 11/5/2019 at 10:38 AM, troeros said:

Spruce Nail Shop is expanding and moving out of their small Vine Street location and into 1818 race street and expect to hire 30 plus people. 

 

They arent taking all of 1818 race but is the Hickory Wald Food Hall Concept still a go? I really hope that's still in the works...

 

In addition to Spruce, another salon is going into part of 1818 Race: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/11/07/obryonville-salon-moving-to-findlay-market.html

Quote

High Five Salon, which has called 2039 Madison Road home since 2010, is moving into part of the former Epicurean Mercantile Co. space at 1818 Race St. with the goal of opening in February 2020.

...

High Five is taking over half of the former Epicurean Mercantile Co. space, which was subdivided into two areas. Spruce Nail Shop is taking over the other half. While the two are not entering into an official partnership, there will be an interior door between the two spaces to facilitate cross pollination of clients who want both their hair and nails done.

 

Edited by jwulsin

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Does anyone know (I never make my way downtown hardly at all anymore), are these home listings seperate from all the other work they were doing on this street like last year?

 

**Actually looks like it's the second phase. Kind of crazy to me the price of these homes and they get them sold before built, the builder must have a hugely positive reputation:
 

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1501137/217-G-W-Fifteenth-St-Cincinnati-OH-45202

 

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1481592/214-W-Fifteenth-St-C-Cincinnati-OH-45202

 

 

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10 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

Does anyone know (I never make my way downtown hardly at all anymore), are these home listings seperate from all the other work they were doing on this street like last year?

 

**Actually looks like it's the second phase. Kind of crazy to me the price of these homes and they get them sold before built, the builder must have a hugely positive reputation:
 

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1501137/217-G-W-Fifteenth-St-Cincinnati-OH-45202

 

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1481592/214-W-Fifteenth-St-C-Cincinnati-OH-45202

 

 

 

If homes are pending near the 1 million range..when probably 60% of OTR is still not gentrified/hot spot crime areas/drug dealing......25 years down the line, when all of OTR is gentrified, when it becomes a very low crime neighborhood, all of the drug dealers have moved to Mason...Could we theoretically see single home value in OTR jump in the 10 - 15 Million Dollar range once OTR is 100% cleaned up and gentrified? 

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^ IMO, no way it would ever be that close.

 

If you look at Brooklyn for example, the highest real estate in the USA probably besides maybe Manhatten, there are single familys for up to $10 million which are 5,000 square feet but not many.

 

I would guess if that situation you described holds true you could see homes at *current* inflation around $2 million. By then maybe that's 3 or 4 million.

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4 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

If homes are pending near the 1 million range..when probably 60% of OTR is still not gentrified/hot spot crime areas/drug dealing......25 years down the line, when all of OTR is gentrified, when it becomes a very low crime neighborhood, all of the drug dealers have moved to Mason...Could we theoretically see single home value in OTR jump in the 10 - 15 Million Dollar range once OTR is 100% cleaned up and gentrified? 


no

 

image.gif.e8f258f841ab001f284ea14092c091f9.gif

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33 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

If homes are pending near the 1 million range..when probably 60% of OTR is still not gentrified/hot spot crime areas/drug dealing......25 years down the line, when all of OTR is gentrified, when it becomes a very low crime neighborhood, all of the drug dealers have moved to Mason...Could we theoretically see single home value in OTR jump in the 10 - 15 Million Dollar range once OTR is 100% cleaned up and gentrified? 

 

Definitely not. Look at Rittenhouse Square, the ritziest urban neighborhood in Philly, for comparison. There are two units for sale above $10 million (One is $11 mil and one is $25 mil). They are located on the 46th and 48th floor of high rises. There will never be skyscrapers in OTR so that's not going to happen. On the other hand, there are over 100 homes for sale between $1 mil and $5 mil. That's the sweet spot. And you can still get a 400 square foot, 1 bed, 1 bath for under $300k. So there will always be affordable options as developers continue to squeeze smaller units into the neighborhood.

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23 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

^ IMO, no way it would ever be that close.

 

If you look at Brooklyn for example, the highest real estate in the USA probably besides maybe Manhatten, there are single familys for up to $10 million which are 5,000 square feet but not many.

 

I would guess if that situation you described holds true you could see homes at *current* inflation around $2 million. By then maybe that's 3 or 4 million.

 

Would you care to explain how/when housing market value caps?

 

For instance, single family homes in OTR back in 2002/2003 were going for 60/70k max. Now single family homes has capped at 1.1 million (I believe that is the most expensive home sale in otr to date). 

 

So if a home has the capability to cap at 1.1 million, in a neighborhood that still has many rough edges than how do you predict what the future housing cap will be in 20+ years once the neighborhood is fully gentrified? 

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5 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Would you care to explain how/when housing market value caps?

 

For instance, single family homes in OTR back in 2002/2003 were going for 60/70k max. Now single family homes has capped at 1.1 million (I believe that is the most expensive home sale in otr to date). 

 

So if a home has the capability to cap at 1.1 million, in a neighborhood that still has many rough edges than how do you predict what the future housing cap will be in 20+ years once the neighborhood is fully gentrified? 

 

I am definitely not an expert but I think you would look for comparison similar neighborhoods in other cities which are similar population wise so maybe look at the French Quarter and surrounding area home prices currently or Charleston, SC or like others mentioned Philidelphia (though much bigger) which exerts a lot of pressure to to drive home prices up.

 

Unless Cincinnati gets a massive employment win to really boost instead of steady Eddy like we have been, I would guess that current values would be closer to $2 million for really high end homes in today dollars 20 years from now. I think going from 2002 - Now is about 20 years but a ton changed since then, and not as much will change from now to 2040. I could see $2 million homes in West End and in ares of OTR for sure in 20 years (in today dollars) and maybe even $3 million but not much more than that. UNLESS there is a huge job gain like an Amazon HQ or something similar that pushes 30k high paying jobs downtown, our streetcar and transit is drastically improved, and the urban core is fully built, then if that happens in 10 years I could see it faster.

 

There are homes in Indian Hill that go over $1 million quite frequently but even then the massive mansions still go under $5 million usually, there just isn't that amount of money here in tons of individuals to go that high. And I would bet people that could afford a $1 million home, probabably only a small % actually do buy that, they would probably rather spend $500k here in Cincinnati and $500k for a home in the Cayman Islands or Hilton Head or something

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Not sure if this is still technically OTR (might be CUF), but there is landscaping work being done on 2129-2133 Vine St... clearing the hillside. Nothing showing up in terms of building permits. But I'm glad to see work being done here, regardless.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

Not sure if this is still technically OTR (might be CUF), but there is landscaping work being done on 2129-2133 Vine St... clearing the hillside. Nothing showing up in terms of building permits. But I'm glad to see work being done here, regardless.

Owned by Terprich LLC (housed at 2127 Van Lear Alley".

 

Terprich LLC has owned 2127 Van Lear Alley since August 2017. They just acquired 2129-2133 Vine in July 2019.

 

I noticed trees moving erratically the other day from Mulberry Street, but didn't go investigate. Interesting. I wonder if they actually have plans for it. It would seem weird to clear the land with no plans.

EDIT: It is in CUF, but right at the border. No need to move it to the other topic since it's right on the border. It also appears to be in the OTR Historic District on the National Register, but it's just beyond the local OTR historic district. So these properties are eligible for funding from state and federal sources to maintain existing historic structures, but there are no restriction on what they can build and no protection from demolition. Since these particular lots are vacant, the only thing a local district would do is describe infill requirements.

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1 minute ago, jmecklenborg said:

Work might be starting on the new-construction bar on the SW side of McMicken near Corwine.  I saw that fencing just went up.  

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.113745,-84.513733,86m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

I'm excited for that bar, but I'm genuinely not sure how many people will actually be walking versus using an uber to this bar. 

 

That area at night can be so dark and desolate, with a lot of people who loiter on the streets who are very aggressive to strangers walking in their, "hood".

 

Did it once when I decided to walk to the fcc stadium because of free parking in north of liberty. It's fine during the day but at night it's just a very, very uncomfortable experience... 

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3 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

I'm excited for that bar, but I'm genuinely not sure how many people will actually be walking versus using an uber to this bar. 

 

That area at night can be so dark and desolate, with a lot of people who loiter on the streets who are very aggressive to strangers walking in their, "hood".

 

Did it once when I decided to walk to the fcc stadium because of free parking in north of liberty. It's fine during the day but at night it's just a very, very uncomfortable experience... 

 

The area around Rhinegeist was pretty much an un-policed prostitution zone before Rhinegeist moved in. The only way to change these areas is to invest in them. Enforcement will never be enough. It needs foot traffic, and this is the first step. Glad to see someone's investing in it. The intersection at Main/McMicken feels perfectly safe. This is only another block and isn't a stretch to see people walk to that bar. I hope it succeeds.

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