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Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)

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22 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

The Jackson St. building is literally surrounded by a parking lot.  There is a 300+ space parking garage 50 feet to the south.  

 

So somebody is putting these people up to complain about parking.  

The area right around Jackson St. is still all regular meters- https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/dote/assets/File/OtherMaps/OTR_Parking_Permit_Area_Map.pdf

 

 

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12 hours ago, 10albersa said:

i just don't get the logic behind letting residents park in the street. 

 

The whole point of living in a walkable neighborhood is to walk or use public transportation.   

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A business that just sells pretzels isn't exactly a new thing, you know. Didn't Aunt Annie's just open up in the Carew Tower a few months ago? That's a business that only sells pretzels...guess someone should tell their CEO that they're doomed, as businesses that only sell pretzels suck. Come on, guys. No need to disparage an out of market business that took a chance on OTR when it was more risky to do so just because they're closing. I enjoyed having them in OTR, and I thought their pretzels were pretty good. They're from Columbus, I think, and I'm glad they operated in OTR as long as they did.

 

I don't think the slow down in OTR (perceived or real) can just be attributed to slow growth in the city. It shouldn't be, at least. A city doesn't need to be growing overall for its premier neighborhood to be booming. Look at the growth occurring in Downtown and Midtown Detroit, center city Chicago, Ohio City Cleveland, ...any number of neighborhoods in Pittsburgh. All of those cities have been losing population at the city level, and Pittsburgh and Cleveland have been shrinking at the regional level, too.

 

I think some of the slow down might just be timing. If the large infill projects in Pendleton and Elm and Liberty were happening, I don't think this discussion would be happening. As far as I've heard, those projects are still moving forward, they just aren't in the construction phase yet. There is the Columbia building on Walnut, the new office rehabs occurring near the old Kroger, the office project fronting Race and Pleasant, and I'm sure a smattering of other non-3CDC work underway throughout the neighborhood. Plus, as has already been mentioned, the Findlay Market area appears to still be booming with projects, as Model works to complete their Market Square projects. I don't think the OTR market has slowed. Rather, it's a symptom of having so much redevelopment tied to one organization that is currently a bit distracted with large projects downtown (convention hotel, Macy's redevelopment, new Kroger+apartments, Court Street rehabs, etc.)

Edited by edale

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57 minutes ago, edale said:

A business that just sells pretzels isn't exactly a new thing, you know. Didn't Aunt Annie's just open up in the Carew Tower a few months ago? That's a business that only sells pretzels...guess someone should tell their CEO that they're doomed, as businesses that only sell pretzels suck. Come on, guys. No need to disparage an out of market business that took a chance on OTR when it was more risky to do so just because they're closing. I enjoyed having them in OTR, and I thought their pretzels were pretty good. They're from Columbus, I think, and I'm glad they operated in OTR as long as they did.

 

I don't think anyone is hating on them. Just pointing out that it is hard to sustain a brick and mortar storefront that only sells pretzels. There is a reason that Auntie Anne's operates out of small store fronts in malls. It's cheaper than having a free-standing location.

 

Quote

I don't think the slow down in OTR (perceived or real) can just be attributed to slow growth in the city.

 

According to the building permit data there is no slow down. If anything there was a slowdown last year and it has picked up again this year. OTR is still booming. 

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From the latest HCB Packet, there are details and renders for the proposed OTR Still House at 1814 Central Parkway: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/buildings/historic-conservation/historic-conservation-board/june-17-2019-staff-report-and-attachments/

 

https://www.otrstillhouse.com/

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/06/18/new-distillery-coming-to-over-the-rhine.html

 

The design shows a stage and "green room", which seems to suggest they'll be making concerts/events a big part of the business. The stage is situated such that it could be used for indoor concerts or outdoor (a large garage door opens up on to a large turf open space.

 

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.457c9f2c9826a458b85ff5f93d817840.png

 

image.thumb.png.f877d60a89fd299bd9ead1ab58dc61c8.png

 

image.thumb.png.4857b9df911f154a32489ccc55621da9.png

 

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The OTR stillhouse looks awesome and along with the Somerset place on McMicken those are two really large destination type spaces with lots of outdoor seating that look great. It’s interesting to see the scale of the Northern Liberties spaces compared to the first wave of OTR bars and restaurants which were all much smaller. This is probably another reason the brewery distric has been slower to develop since the buildings and lots are larger the threshold for entry is higher. 

 

The topography of the stillhouse is interesting too,  because sitting next to cars flying by on central parkway doesn’t sound fun, but because you are a level below the street it should be much quieter and more intimate than the light industrial location would seem on a map (and you won’t be staring at the dollar store). Hopefully there is an entrance from the Henry street side as well so it’s easier to walk there from the streetcar stop and rhinegeist, but it doesn’t look like it.

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I hadn't heard any updates on that project in a long time, and I assumed it wasn't happening anymore. Glad to see it's still moving forward.

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2 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

Hopefully there is an entrance from the Henry street side as well so it’s easier to walk there from the streetcar stop and rhinegeist, but it doesn’t look like it.

 

That's a good point. Without an entrance from Henry Street they are essentially turning their back on OTR. It would be very short walk from the streetcar or Rhinegeist down Henry Street to get to there, but if the only entrance is on Central Parkway, it's a much longer and more circuitous walk.

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The HCB packet specifically stated that they'd be putting a sign up on Branch St and the plans show gates in the fencing along that side... so it seems like they do expect Henry St to serve as an entrance. 

 

From page 70 of the packet:

Quote

The project will be attracting customers from both the Central Parkway side as well as the Over-the-Rhine side. Therefore, making the request
for a sign along the Henry/Branch Street side of the property appropriate as long as it is contextual with that permitted with adjacent property
owners.

 

Edited by jwulsin
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The City has issued a few RFPs for properties around the Pleasant/Green intersection: https://data.cincinnati-oh.gov/Fiscal-Sustainability-Strategic-Investment/Business-Opportunities-5-10-2018-to-Present/b397-t996/data

 

1623 Pleasant St (vacant 3-story building, approx 3,200 sq ft) : https://www.dropbox.com/s/9jko0zuok4ht4dy/RFP723CEDPLEASANT1623.pdf?dl=0

1626-1628 Pleasant St (40x85 vacant land): https://www.dropbox.com/s/u02dvxoq5jg0f33/RFP724CEDPLEASANT1626.pdf?dl=0

127 Green St (20x60 vacant land): https://www.dropbox.com/s/kat45rkzf2vn6ns/RFP728CEDGREEN.pdf?dl=0

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Just as I was saying there was a lull a storm hits...

 

1617 Race St - 4 story Mixed Use

 

1600 - 1602 Pleasant St - 5 story Mixed Use

 

1521 - 1525 Vine St - 5 story Mixed use (new 3cdc project?)

 

1512 - 1520 Republic - 4 story Mixed Use

 

114 W 14th St - Rennovation plus Adjacent infill addition. 

 

Couple of notes...Density galore and mixed use structures galore.

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Where are you seeing these?

20 minutes ago, troeros said:

Just as I was saying there was a lull a storm hits...

 

1617 Race St - 4 story Mixed Use

 

1600 - 1602 Pleasant St - 5 story Mixed Use

 

1521 - 1525 Vine St - 5 story Mixed use (new 3cdc project?)

 

1512 - 1520 Republic - 4 story Mixed Use

 

114 W 14th St - Rennovation plus Adjacent infill addition. 

 

Couple of notes...Density galore and mixed use structures galore.

Where did you find these?

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Apparently a proposal went before the OTRCC yesterday that would involve "privatizing" this pocket park on Vine Street and making it into a restaurant space. Of course OTRCC voted to oppose it. I don't know much about what exactly was proposed other than a few vague tweets that I saw. Does anybody have more information?

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16 minutes ago, taestell said:

Apparently a proposal went before the OTRCC yesterday that would involve "privatizing" this pocket park on Vine Street and making it into a restaurant space. Of course OTRCC voted to oppose it. I don't know much about what exactly was proposed other than a few vague tweets that I saw. Does anybody have more information?

 

Aka “Imagination Alley.” During my time there the idea was only to use a portion of it for outdoor dining for Panino. The restaurant could then perhaps help fund the maintenance of the space, for which the cash-strapped CRC is responsible for. Seemed totally reasonable and I strongly disagreed with OTRCC’s opposition it. Don’t know the details of the current plan. 

Edited by thebillshark

www.cincinnatiideas.com

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There was a carry out Indian restaurant in OTR!?  I don't even remember hearing about it.


"Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." - Warren Buffett 

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33 minutes ago, troeros said:

Another OTR business has shut down. This time Indian carry out resturaunt "Injoy".

What?! I loved that place, this is the first one that hits home. Bottle and Basket closed in the same location so I wonder if that space is just too off the beaten path (even though it's across the street from Salazar) or if the rent is too high.

Edited by ucgrady

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44 minutes ago, troeros said:

Another OTR business has shut down. This time Indian carry out resturaunt "Injoy".

 

That location was tough for a place with no alcohol and basically no seating. It was basically a walk up window paying for a full brick and mortar space. It would've done a lot better on Main Street. I loved it but was always surprised that it was still open. 

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10 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

What?! I loved that place, this is the first one that hits home. Bottle and Basket closed in the same location so I wonder if that space is just too off the beaten path (even though it's across the street from Salazar) or if the rent is too high.

 

I don't think the location is the issue. 

 

The rent might have been to high, but I think the concept itself might have been a little disconnected since it was fusion Indian food ran by 3 young white dudes. I think maybe authenticity or lack thereof might have created some disconnect and hesitation with potential consumers.

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3 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

That location was tough for a place with no alcohol and basically no seating. It was basically a walk up window paying for a full brick and mortar space. It would've done a lot better on Main Street. I loved it but was always surprised that it was still open. 

I agree with this, it was a walk-up shop focusing on takeout food. It got some business from UberEats, GrubHub, etc as well, but this isn't one of those that could be blamed on the parking permit. I liked their food and the variety it brought to the neighborhood so hopefully they come back as a food truck or walk-up window or something. 

Edited by ucgrady

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4 minutes ago, troeros said:

At this rate we are having an otr venture going out of business every 2-3 weeks 

 

Your perceived time between boom-bust cycles of OTR is rapidly approaching zero. At this rate, you will be extolling the booms and bemoaning the busts every 2-3 days. 

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3 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

 

Your perceived time between boom-bust cycles of OTR is rapidly approaching zero. At this rate, you will be extolling the booms and bemoaning the busts every 2-3 days. 

 

Just stating the fact that there have been more otr businesses closing lately that's all. 

 

It could be rent related, weather related, etc who knows. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, troeros said:

Another OTR business has shut down. This time Indian carry out resturaunt "Injoy".

 

Well what do you expect when you only carry one type of food! 

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I live within walking distance of these places and never hear about them until they close.  Because they don't have illuminated signs.  

 

I can name all sorts of restaurants I've never been to in Clifton Heights, right up the hill, because they have illuminated signs.  (A)Deep India, King Wok, Elephant Walk, etc.  

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1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

I agree with this, it was a walk-up shop focusing on takeout food. It got some business from UberEats, GrubHub, etc as well, but this isn't one of those that could be blamed on the parking permit. I liked their food and the variety it brought to the neighborhood so hopefully they come back as a food truck or walk-up window or something. 

 

Mommy's Basement App sales don't count since the app companies take 30 percent off the top and people already have drinks at their homes. Restaurants selling something on those things is like playing a benefit show or painting something for free to get "exposure".

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When I went to Injoy I would get it and walk over to Washington Park and drink two beers there while I ate it. If they had served alcohol and had a seating area on the sidewalk I would've given them my $12 for the two beers instead of the park. 

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1 minute ago, jjakucyk said:

 

 Oh give me a break. 

 

 

Sign laws can be the difference between being open for 3 years simply because the area is cool or being open 100 because everyone knows where you are. This goes for suburban sign laws as well. All those businesses with too-low signs you see in "upscale" suburbs are Marked for Death the minute Becky stops telling the other Becky about them.

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1 minute ago, GCrites80s said:

 

Mommy's Basement App sales don't count since the app companies take 30 percent off the top and people already have drinks at their homes. Restaurants selling something on those things is like playing a benefit show or painting something for free to get "exposure".

 

Yeah, the restaurant I deliver for quit Door Dash right away.  It's a scam.  It scams the drivers and it scams the restaurants.  

 

Also, the restaurant I work for is all lit up.  It does $15-20,000 every Friday and every Saturday, rain or shine, and close to $10,000 the other five days each week.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Every time that a business closes, it's not a sign that the neighborhood is doomed and failing. Restaurant and bars fail all the time, and it's actually pretty incredible that Vine Street has seen very little turnover overall.

 

Bridges will be opening on Court Street and is essentially the same concept as Injoy. Except it's in a better location that will get more foot traffic from more office workers, courthouse goers, and the new 1010 On The Rhine apartment building. And I think they will also have some indoor seating.

 

I also think that in Cincinnati, much of the population is still afraid to take a chance on anything that isn't a polished, traditional restaurant concept that they can easily understand and have heard their friends talk about. That's why people are willing to put their name on a list and wait 3 hours to get into The Eagle or Bakersfield. I don't see many people in Cincinnati getting take-out food and eating it in the park, despite the fact that you see this happen in other cities all the time. I barely see anyone getting food from The Takeaway and eating it in Ziegler Park which is right next door.

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7 minutes ago, taestell said:

Restaurant and bars fail all the time

 

People think they know how restaurants work because they go to them.  Give somebody a movie camera who has seen 1,000 movies in the theater and they're going to make a piece of crap, aside from the fact they have no idea how to get one funded, distributed, etc.  

 

Almost nobody who opens a restaurant knows what they're doing.  Almost nobody who opens a food truck knows what they're doing.  There are like 15 unusual skills that you need (cooking food is only one of them), and you need all of them.  And people who are that smart rarely waste their time in the restaurant business.  

 

 

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You have to have a lot of businesses in the first place in order to see any significant number of them failing.  They can't go out of business if they're not there in the first place. 

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Bars seem like a better business venture in otr. High margins of whole sale liquor selling as a 9-12$ shot at bars. Must be good profits for otr bar owners all thing considering.

 

If you really want to do a side food business, just do what Daniel Wright did with Holiday Spirits in OTR. Open a bar and have a pick up order window section for food.

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, troeros said:

Bars seem like a better business venture in otr. High margins of whole sale liquor selling as a 9-12$ shot at bars. Must be good profits for otr bar owners all thing considering.

 

If you really want to do a side food business, just do what Daniel Wright did with Holiday Spirits in OTR. Open a bar and have a pick up order window section for food.

 

 

 

 

Are you saying that OTR bars are selling shots for $9-12? Because I hang out at a lot of OTR bars and I don't see that happening. You're more likely to find a $5 shot and a beer special. You can get a $9-12 mixed drink at a lot of places, but those usually contain lots of ingredients and often more than one shot. 

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39 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Are you saying that OTR bars are selling shots for $9-12? Because I hang out at a lot of OTR bars and I don't see that happening. You're more likely to find a $5 shot and a beer special. You can get a $9-12 mixed drink at a lot of places, but those usually contain lots of ingredients and often more than one shot. 

 

There are definitely places in otr with shots in the 9-10$ range.

 

Even with the mixed drinks they are only pouring a few ounces of liquor. Still great margins for a 10$ mixed drink.

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